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[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]


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@Hotarubi

 

I really really didn't want to respond to you in this thread once anymore but you're making this unavoidable. Did you really just call out a player that he cannot live without Snorlax and loses without it just because he has a different opinion than you do? Considering how often you complain about "personal attacks" in these forums I find this simply incredible. The very culmination of hypocrisy.

 

I mean I'm all for free moderation what comes to these forums but that is what really shitposting in forums looks like.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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7 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

@Hotarubi

 

I really really didn't want to respond to you in this thread once anymore but you're making this unavoidable. Did you really just call out a player that he cannot live without Snorlax and loses without it just because he has a different opinion than you do? Considering how often you complain about "personal attacks" in these forums I find this simply incredible. The very culmination of hypocrisy.

 

I mean I'm all for free moderation what comes to these forums but that is what really shitposting in forums looks like.

 

Okay.

What I said is based on experience via 30+ seperate battles against this person.

It's not a personal attack its just truth 

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23 hours ago, Hotarubi said:

Okay.

What I said is based on experience via 30+ seperate battles against this person.

It's not a personal attack its just truth 

It becomes an attack when you assumed that he is only defending lax because he uses it in every match and cant live without it. Had you simply said he uses lax in every match then it would have just been truth, but still rather irrelevant to the conversation.

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6 minutes ago, codylramey said:

It becomes an attack when you assumed that he is only defending lax because he uses it in every match and cant live without it. Had you simply said he uses lax in every match then it would have just been truth, but still rather irrelevant to the conversation.

There edited.

I just prefer  to show his reason.

Imo thats his reason for wanting to keep snorlax.

Nothing hostile just wanted to shed light on the fact that usually if someone always uses a Pokemon they wont want it banned, no matter how unhealthy it is.

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1 minute ago, Hotarubi said:

There edited.

I just prefer  to show his reason.

Imo thats his reason for wanting to keep snorlax.

Nothing hostile just wanted to shed light on the fact that usually if someone always uses a Pokemon they wont want it banned, no matter how unhealthy it is.

That is intently biased and not applicable to most, since smart players use top tier threats to their advantage. Terrible argument imo. 

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11 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

That is intently biased and not applicable to most, since smart players use top tier threats to their advantage. Terrible argument imo. 

No it's the truth.

Regarding the individual.

Snorlax puts limitations on this OU meta.

Back to this discussion.

Remark on my earlier statement.....

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2 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

No it's the truth.

Regarding the individual.

Snorlax puts limitations on this OU meta.

Back to this discussion.

Remark on my earlier statement.....

Truth or not it's a terrible argument. Just because someone uses Snorlax it doesn't mean they want to keep it in the teir. 

 

Hopefully you can one day understand this flaw.

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1 minute ago, Hotarubi said:

No it's the truth.

Regarding the individual.

Snorlax puts limitations on this OU meta.

Back to this discussion.

Remark on my earlier statement.....

Every S ranked pokemon exerts a certain influence on the metagame it's in. This is true across every single generation, and is largely unavoidable. That's why we look for OVERcentralization as a possible ban characteristic, as some centralization is inevitable from the best mons in a tier. Do you have any calcs to support your assertion that snorlax fits defensive ubers? Or can you point to specific examples of how it's centralizing the metagame? (ie: compare usage statistics from pre and post snorlax metagame to show changes)?

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1 hour ago, Gunthug said:

Every S ranked pokemon exerts a certain influence on the metagame it's in. This is true across every single generation, and is largely unavoidable. That's why we look for OVERcentralization as a possible ban characteristic, as some centralization is inevitable from the best mons in a tier. Do you have any calcs to support your assertion that snorlax fits defensive ubers? Or can you point to specific examples of how it's centralizing the metagame? (ie: compare usage statistics from pre and post snorlax metagame to show changes)?

Now imagine her in every single discussion threat throughout every gen

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3 hours ago, Gunthug said:

Every S ranked pokemon exerts a certain influence on the metagame it's in. This is true across every single generation, and is largely unavoidable. That's why we look for OVERcentralization as a possible ban characteristic, as some centralization is inevitable from the best mons in a tier. Do you have any calcs to support your assertion that snorlax fits defensive ubers? Or can you point to specific examples of how it's centralizing the metagame? (ie: compare usage statistics from pre and post snorlax metagame to show changes)?

offtopic, but is there a collection thread for usage statistics? if so, could you post the link? thanks in advance

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15 minutes ago, DrButler said:

offtopic, but is there a collection thread for usage statistics? if so, could you post the link? thanks in advance

All I know of at the moment is

 with statistics from August until now. I don't know if there's an available archive put all conveniently together of anything past this. 

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This is ou fam dont expect to face a lot of butterfrees, ppl uses the best pokes. If u team aint ready to take a curselax (and got other options to take another lax sets) ur prolly gettin rekted since is one of the most used pokes in the tier. This makes lax uber? nah, if u arent prepared for a DD gyara it gonna destroy your team too

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On 26/10/2016 at 8:08 AM, SirYurop said:

This is ou fam dont expect to face a lot of butterfrees, ppl uses the best pokes. If u team aint ready to take a curselax (and got other options to take another lax sets) ur prolly gettin rekted since is one of the most used pokes in the tier. This makes lax uber? nah, if u arent prepared for a DD gyara it gonna destroy your team too

Gyara doesnt limit teambuilding a tenth of what snorlax does. I literally dont care about OU now cause most of my special oriented side is completely destroyed by snorlax. If you think thats a good thing, go ahead. But note im not salty about snorlax being in the tier, There are around 1001 lures that I usually use that destroy most snorlax sets with ez. Its just sad cuz OU is right now limited to a couple of mons while the others act like sitting ducks before snorlax and therefore dont get the usage they should.

By the way, for the ppl who declare that snorlax brought new stuff to the meta, its true but it ruined much more stuff than it gave arise to.

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I had a conversation with Orange this weekend about Snorlax. We were debating publicly whether or not Snorlax is uncompetitive (typical gbwead being annoying ik ^^). I was saying that Snorlax forces the outcome of a duel out of the hands of the player on the receiving end of Snorlax’s Body Slams. Orange answered that this doesn’t make Snorlax uncompetitive, but simply OP. It was actually not the first time I heard that: “Snorlax is not uncompetitive, it's just OP”. For some reason, Orange’s words really got me thinking. Is it really better that Snorlax is OP instead of being uncompetitive? We are talking about a pokemon being OP, a pokemon being defined as overpowered, a pokemon that has too much power for the tier. How could such a pokemon be allowed to remain in OU?

 

I realise this is just me playing with semantics and terminologies, but when you think about it, there is no other way to put it. Snorlax’s presence in OU is toxic. It doesn’t matter how the problem is labeled (uber, uncomp or unhealthy) as long as we recognize that there is a problem and our OU meta is suffering because of it.

 

What follows are three perspectives that imo show Snorlax as banworthy.

 

Ban Snorlax as Uber Support:

Spoiler

Snorlax fits Uber Support characteristics for two reasons.

  1. Snorlax is capable of reliably and consistently spread status without giving away momentum to the opponent and by pressuring clerics to be unviable.
  2. Snorlax puts in jeopardy the viability of several special attackers susceptible to be Pursuit trapped.

These two supportive characteristics of Snorlax have a decisive impact on nearly all duels. Very subtly, Snorlax can “guarantee” a win to whoever uses it.

 

Ban Snorlax as uncompetitive:

 

Spoiler

There is an uncompetitive luck-based aspect to Snorlax. Since Snorlax has a lot of switch ins – especially against defensive teams – it can pressure/force any opponent to take the risk of getting paralysed. Considering clerics are unviable mainly because of Snorlax' presence in the tier (Pursuit + Body Slam), getting paralysed can be a big detriment to one’s game. The outcome of a duel is very often determined by the RNG of Body Slam which has made our OU meta more luck oriented than skill oriented.

 

Ban Snorlax as unhealthy:

Spoiler

A lot of people have mentioned how OU has become stale and it could not be more true. Nearly all experienced players run Snorlax and the one that don’t straight up lose since they are at an enormous disadvantage. This is a case of “too good not to use” to the unhealthiest degree possible.  We keep seeing the same team archetypes over and over. There is no place for creativity in this overly centralized meta where, if you dare to deviate in any way from standard cores, you lose. Yesterday’s tournament clearly shows all of this.

 

When a pokemon is described as overpowered or broken, that doesn’t mean we are necessarily talking about a pokemon that fit Offensive Uber characteristics. Clearly, power can manifest itself in various ways. In the case of Snorlax, it has been agreed on multiple occasions that the pokemon does not fit Offensive or Defensive Uber characteristics. However, I don’t think we ever bothered or took the time to verify if Snorlax could fit Support Uber characteristics and I think it is never too late to do the right thing.

 

We kept arguing whether or not the degree of uncompetitiveness and the degree of unhealthiness of Snorlax were acceptable, but I believe we forgot that uncompetitiveness and unhealthiness could also be indirect consequences of Snorlax being UBER. For instance, when we talk about an Offense Uber pokemon, we also tend to look at the level of centralisation that this pokemon induces on a tier. An Uber pokemon is almost always centralising since players are actively trying to deal with it no matter how difficult or how extreme that may be. However, when it comes time to actually banning the problematic pokemon, we need to go at the source of the problem (Uber > Uncompetitive > Unhealthy). Banned pokemons need to be banned for the right reasons and perhaps we were unable to ban Snorlax because we misdiagnosed the problem.

 

I personally believe Snorlax could be banned for being Uber, uncompetitive or unhealthy. I personally believe should be banned for being Uber, uncompetitive and unhealthy. Snorlax can be all 3 at once and that would most likely be the case if the pokemon is deemed to fit Support Uber characteristics.

Edited by gbwead
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I don't like snorlax but I don't think it's a problem by itself. IMO the problem is how well it works together with other walls, making defensive play too op. A good defensive core is too hard to break without previous scouting and gimmicks. Like I was trying to say in out tier discussion, a meta with so many defensive powerhouses is cancer if you don't have any offensive powerhouses. Just look at the ubers: blissey and wobbufet are the only defensive ones

Edited by Erayne
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1 hour ago, Erayne said:

I don't like snorlax but I don't think it's a problem by itself. IMO the problem is how well it works together with other walls, making defensive play too op.

That's really not true. Snorlax functions as a cancer regardless of the pokes which are in the team along with it.

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