OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Imperial]

1 hour ago, codylramey said:

Does arena trap work in this game? Gengar was able to switch out but maybe ghosts are immune to being trapped? Idk it's been so long.

How is cursed body uncompetitive? 

Cursed body

1. People typically spam substitute on Gengar in the hope of activating the ability against certain Pokemon
2. If a Pokemon is choice scarfed/banded they are locked in one move - once the ability activates after they attack, they are forced to switch out and lose momentum when they at least have a chance to stay in and attack for another turn if cursed body didn't activate

Arena Trap

Basically acts as a revenge killer - for example pretend Infernape manages to successfully kill one of the opposing mons, they can then send out Dugtrio to 1KO it with Earthquake (and no I won't be like Caioxlive and use the Mach Punch scenario)

 

Shadow Tag

You didn't ask this but I'll include it - although they nerfed it to 3 turns, Wobbuffet can also pretty much be a viable revenge killer. For example depending on the opposing mon they can just use Counter/Mirror Coat to KO or use Encore to gather momentum by gaining a free switch into a potential threat

Edited July 26, 2022 by Imperial

[suigin]

I remember when Gengar was a perfectly balanced Pokemon yet the devs decided to "update" it to its current incarnation despite the context for it existing as such not being a thing in MMO.

[Requi]

Since the trapping stuff is being mentioned thoughts on Shadow Tag Gothitelle as it will eventually get it's HA.

 

Also Chandelure but im assuming they will just give it infiltrator like future gens. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Requi

[epicdavenport]

10 hours ago, Requi said:

Since the trapping stuff is being mentioned thoughts on Shadow Tag Gothitelle as it will eventually get it's HA.

 

Also Chandelure but im assuming they will just give it infiltrator like future gens. 

They didn't give Blaziken it's hidden ability to they may not give gothitelles if it'll just be banned.

[RysPicz]

27 minutes ago, epicdavenport said:

They didn't give Blaziken it's hidden ability to they may not give gothitelles if it'll just be banned.

+1

  

11 hours ago, Requi said:

Since the trapping stuff is being mentioned thoughts on Shadow Tag Gothitelle as it will eventually get it's HA.

It very likely won't. Some of hidden abilities will not be released at all due to their OP/ uncompetitive nature (such as mentioned speed boost Blaziken)

[Requi]

3 hours ago, RysPicz said:

+1

  

It very likely won't. Some of hidden abilities will not be released at all due to their OP/ uncompetitive nature (such as mentioned speed boost Blaziken)

That would be ideal imo but the tc seems to have a preference to keep trapping as a viable thing in OU with "nerfs" being shadow tags 3 turn limit. 

I do think gothitelle would be very strong as it could be built to specifically trap and beat certain things for a teammate to get an easy sweep.

[suigin]

Scarf Trick Gothitelle is insanely disruptive. It's probably for the best not to implement it.

[AwaXGoku]

Yo , can we talk about Serperior pls
So you might know since getting his new HA , Serperior has become a big threat in the OU metagme. 
The most commun set is the glare ,dragon pulse , hp fire , leaf storm one with what i could see in some tournament but it isnt uncommun to see serperior running sub or leech seed instead of glare. 
What i wanted to point is that actually Serperior has no real counter and the few check we can use are not really usefull and/or too much based on rng. 
Serperior is also one of the fastest mon in the tier so it makes it difficult to revenge kill it without a scarf user that can OHKO it (or you might get para lol) or Weavile.
He also has a nice bulk so it make it even more ennoying to deal with it. 
The last thing is that he has 6% usage but 20+% in tournament which is more relevent than the classic usage since he just recently added and cost a lot to breed for new player/poor player. 
In conclusion ,my opinion is that Serperior isnt healthy for the actual OU metagame and should be banned/ban contrary until we have acces to more HA pokemon that can deal with it.

[Munya]

Its got a 55.77% winrate, doesn't take mirror matches into consideration though, no way of discerning such things without manually looking through every tournament.

[gbwead]

4 minutes ago, Munya said:

Its got a 55.77% winrate, doesn't take mirror matches into consideration though, no way of discerning such things without manually looking through every tournament.

what things?

[pachima]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:55 PM, Imperial said:

Cursed body

1. People typically spam substitute on Gengar in the hope of activating the ability against certain Pokemon
2. If a Pokemon is choice scarfed/banded they are locked in one move - once the ability activates after they attack, they are forced to switch out and lose momentum when they at least have a chance to stay in and attack for another turn if cursed body didn't activate

Arena Trap

Basically acts as a revenge killer - for example pretend Infernape manages to successfully kill one of the opposing mons, they can then send out Dugtrio to 1KO it with Earthquake (and no I won't be like Caioxlive and use the Mach Punch scenario)

 

Shadow Tag

You didn't ask this but I'll include it - although they nerfed it to 3 turns, Wobbuffet can also pretty much be a viable revenge killer. For example depending on the opposing mon they can just use Counter/Mirror Coat to KO or use Encore to gather momentum by gaining a free switch into a potential threat

I just saw this now, but cursed body doesn't proc if the user is behind a substitute.

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, AwaXGoku said:

In conclusion ,my opinion is that Serperior isnt healthy for the actual OU metagame and should be banned/ban contrary until we have acces to more HA pokemon that can deal with it.

No need for HA pokemon. We need legendaries- such as Heatran

[Munya]

5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

what things?

mirror matches

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, Munya said:

mirror matches

I'm not trying to be mean, but what does that have to do with anything that's being discussed?

[Munya]

Its directly involved with the usage that has been mentioned.  Please stop trying to start an argument for the sake of starting an argument.

[gbwead]

4 minutes ago, Munya said:

Its directly involved with the usage that has been mentioned.  Please stop trying to start an argument for the sake of starting an argument.

I don't see any issue to argue about. This is a discussion thread and I'm just trying to understand the point you are trying to make by looking at Serperior's win rate.

[pachima]

2 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:

What i wanted to point is that actually Serperior has no real counter and the few check we can use are not really usefull and/or too much based on rng. 

 

First you cannot post such broad terms and hope they stick. Please explain which mons can counter/check Serperior and how those rely on RNG.

Second, we have a few stuff that reliably counter most Serperior sets, fearing only the Paralyze (But let's real, we cannot focus on Glare alone): Clefable - Weezing. Chansey also comfortably tanks most sets, only fearing the subLeech set that isn't too common right now.

2 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:

Serperior is also one of the fastest mon in the tier so it makes it difficult to revenge kill it without a scarf user that can OHKO it (or you might get para lol) or Weavile.
He also has a nice bulk so it make it even more ennoying to deal with it. 

Fair enough.

2 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:

The last thing is that he has 6% usage but 20+% in tournament which is more relevent than the classic usage since he just recently added and cost a lot to breed for new player/poor player. 

This doesn't tell much. 20+% usage in tours is nothing extraordinary and doesn't warrant any decision based on it.

2 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:

In conclusion ,my opinion is that Serperior isnt healthy for the actual OU metagame and should be banned/ban contrary until we have acces to more HA pokemon that can deal with it.

How did you reach this conclusion?

 

Its also worth noting Serperior has virtually no offensive pressure before setting up the the point where Super effective hits stil are unable to beat what they are supposed to hit (Not even a x4 HP fire ohko uninvested Scizor, for instance), which also means it is possible to pressure it offensively before it has the boosts.

 

All in all Serperior is definitely a controversial Pokemon and may be problematic but I fail to deem it so based on what you just said. 

[gbwead]

40 minutes ago, pachima said:

Chansey also comfortably tanks most sets, only fearing the subLeech set that isn't too common right now.

Every single part of this sentence is untrue.

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

I'm not trying to be mean, but what does that have to do with anything that's being discussed?

We can't get a precise % of win rate vs people without serperior to see the difficult of counter. Again, a Serperior vs Serperior can happen and this impact on winrate

 

[gbwead]

21 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

We can't get a precise % of win rate vs people without serperior to see the difficult of counter. Again, a Serperior vs Serperior can happen and this impact on winrate

 

I know but no one said: "Serperior's win rate is high and therefore Serperior is broken". 

 

Serperior is broken based on the viability of the shaky checks and counters available in OU. Serperior's win rate unless it's ridiculous number is irrelevant.

 

From my understanding, the reason Awax mentionned usage at all when talking about Serperior is because it's bad enough to have a uber mon destroy OU, but what is worse is having a uber mon cost 4 times what regular comps cost. This means only rich players can abuse Serperior which makes OU to some degree a "pay to win" metagame. This is absolutely disgusting and gross which is why we need part 3 of the event so we can get more checks/counters for Serperior and perhaps part 3 will also fix the absurd cost to get a Serperior too.

Edited August 20, 2022 by gbwead

[caioxlive13]

19 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I know but no one said: "Serperior's win rate is high and therefore Serperior is broken". 

 

Serperior is broken based on the viability of the shaky checks and counters available in OU. Serperior's win rate unless it's ridiculous number is irrelevant.

 

From my understanding, the reason Awax mentionned usage at all when talking about Serperior is because it's bad enough to have a uber mon destroy OU, but what is worse is having a uber mon cost 4 times what regular comps cost. This means only rich players can abuse Serperior which makes OU to some degree a "pay to win" metagame. This is absolutely disgusting and gross which is why we need part 3 of the event so we can get more checks/counters for Serperior and perhaps part 3 will also fix the absurd cost to get a Serperior too.

But currently metagaming is already a bit "Pay-to-win", after all, having perfect pokemons gives you a good advantage against players who don't have it. What happens is that this "P2W" has increased, especially with HA. The most expensive ones being the grass starters(Mainly because: 1 - Most part of players don't used Grass-starters, so the HA for Grass Starters is rare . 2 - Venusaur Chrolophyll and Serperior Contrary are extremelly good, so people want the HA for one of them, or both. ), and also the Eevees, since Magic Guard Espeon is very useful, especially for HO with Screens (After all, in addition to not getting taunted, it still prevents you from having Hazards in your field while setting up. convenient for HO teams). 

[AwaXGoku]

1 hour ago, Munya said:

Its got a 55.77% winrate, doesn't take mirror matches into consideration though, no way of discerning such things without manually looking through every tournament.

idk what you mean by that, but 55,77% winrate is high. 
 

 

49 minutes ago, pachima said:

 

First you cannot post such broad terms and hope they stick. Please explain which mons can counter/check Serperior and how those rely on RNG.

 

i will make it simple :
Weezing can lose to Serperior without RNG even more if you play a bold weezing (most commun weezing in the game)
Golbat can lose to serperior if rocks are one the field and para proc 1 time 
chansey lose to leech seed one like you said (the set isnt commun since not everyone can afford 2 or 3 differents serperior but it's the 2nd or 3rd most commun set we must take it in consideration)
Clefable XD if this thing rise in usage is only because of serperior (a bit like cofa with conkeldur) and being forced in playing a mon that isnt even close to be OU to stop a single OU threat just mean that Serperior is too strong.

 

1 hour ago, pachima said:

This doesn't tell much. 20+% usage in tours is nothing extraordinary and doesn't warrant any decision based on it.

You just read the first 3 words and didnt read the entire sentence and gb juste explained better on his last post

 

1 hour ago, pachima said:

How did you reach this conclusion?

this conclusion is mine and not the one from the entire community , this thread exist to express our opinion so this is mine (again you just read the first 2 words)

 

1 hour ago, pachima said:

Its also worth noting Serperior has virtually no offensive pressure before setting up the the point where Super effective hits stil are unable to beat what they are supposed to hit (Not even a x4 HP fire ohko uninvested Scizor, for instance), which also means it is possible to pressure it offensively before it has the boosts.

i dont get it ? i never speak about serperior without boost , my main point was about his ability in addition to his movepool and speed that make it unhealthy in the meta.
 

 

1 hour ago, pachima said:

All in all Serperior is definitely a controversial Pokemon and may be problematic but I fail to deem it so based on what you just said. 

Sorry English isnt my main language so maybe you just dont see what im pointing BUT i really disagree with what you said , i just post to say we should discuss about serperior with MY opinion and obviously i might be wrong or incomplete but you as a TC shouldnt decide the meta with only 1 opinion from 1 single player but just telling you that if people start talking about it you must take it in consideration. 

 

[pachima]

5 minutes ago, AwaXGoku said:

idk what you mean by that, but 55,77% winrate is high. 

Its high, but nothting critical

 

5 minutes ago, AwaXGoku said:

i will make it simple :
Weezing can lose to Serperior without RNG even more if you play a bold weezing (most commun weezing in the game)
Golbat can lose to serperior if rocks are one the field and para proc 1 time 

This is misleading. Weezing can lose to Serperior the same way some Pokemon can lose to a random freeze. You need at least 3 para procs in a row to beat weezing, which let me tell you, its much less probable than a random freeze. The same goes for golbat, although golbat is slightly more vulnerable to it.

 

5 minutes ago, AwaXGoku said:

 

i dont get it ? i never speak about serperior without boost , my main point was about his ability in addition to his movepool and speed that make it unhealthy in the meta.
 

Grass is one of the worse types offensively. If your team can't pressure grass moves to the point of you never speaking of Serperior without boosts, its maybe time to reconsider the entire team.

 

[pachima]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Every single part of this sentence is untrue.

No, its not. And I suggest you to learn how your metronome actually works and to understand how far from the accurate calcs Smogon's calcs with this item are. 

Unless the item is not working as intended, Chansey stops Any non leech Serperior.

[pachima]

Actually, my bad on a small subject. It is probably also worth noting Taunt leftovers Serperior can, in fact, beat Chansey. I'll give you that one. Just forgot about it cause I didn't see it mentioned.