OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[TeaBud]

i bet devs would make smth like contrary boosting to +1 instead of +2 in leaf storm.

 

[epicdavenport]

On 9/3/2022 at 4:13 PM, TeaBud said:

i bet devs would make smth like contrary boosting to +1 instead of +2 in leaf storm.

 

Can we not just ban things? The hands off tiering and the hands on nerfing/changes feels bad.

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, epicdavenport said:

Can we not just ban things? The hands off tiering and the hands on nerfing/changes feels bad.

Nerfs on my opinion are better than bans. The intent of nerfing is make the strategy still viable, but in a way more balanced. Example: Blaziken without speed boost doesn't need to be banned, so they do the right nerf when they don't added their HA. Shadow Tag trapping is still viable vs some mons, but 3 turns is balanced enough and no longer uncompetitive.

I think devs can nerf contrary to do somethig like: Revert any stat Increasing/Decreasing, but not more than +1 increase/decrease per turn. Or: Halve the Raise/Drop and revert it.

Edited September 5, 2022 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

How much time do we have to wait until something is done about Serperior? If the next update (Halloween) is in two months, just ban Serperior to Uber until we get new features to stop it. OU is absolutely disgusting right now.

[caioxlive13]

22 hours ago, gbwead said:

How much time do we have to wait until something is done about Serperior? If the next update (Halloween) is in two months, just ban Serperior to Uber until we get new features to stop it. OU is absolutely disgusting right now.

The situation isn't dramatic. Grass HA are too much expensive, so not all players had it. And somethings in OU can handle it, like Weavile , Ludicolo/Kingdra on Rain, Venusaur on Sunlight, Darma Scarf. Also, the lower tiers have some tools to offer for us, like Golbat.

 

Weavile isn't a bad mon at all, but only good players can use it correctly. Rain is common on OU and Ludicolo/Kingdra can do something if run Ice Beam. Venusaur can use Weather ball to Kill serperior as long as sun remains active. Darma Scarf can use Flare Blitz to do something and Serperior cannot run scarf because she need of Leaf Storm buffs to other attacks do any damage.

Edited September 6, 2022 by caioxlive13

[CaptnBaklava]

2 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

The situation isn't dramatic. Grass HA are too much expensive, so not all players had it. And somethings in OU can handle it, like Weavile , Ludicolo/Kingdra on Rain, Venusaur on Sunlight, Darma Scarf. Also, the lower tiers have some tools to offer for us, like Golbat.

Having something so broken behind a pay wall is dramatic. 

[caioxlive13]

 

2 minutes ago, CaptnBaklava said:

Having something so broken behind a pay wall is dramatic. 

He are a good mon? Yes. But it can be defeated by some Over Used mons, you aren't forced to bring a bad mon for NU just to counter it. Also, some players will say that serperior add a little more pay to play on metagaming. And??? Venusaur also are a good mon, and need their HA, but he are expensive too due to be a Grass-Starter that depend of their HA. Even with that, he are bannable? No.

[CaptnBaklava]

1 minute ago, caioxlive13 said:

 

He are a good mon? Yes. But it can be defeated by some Over Used mons, you aren't forced to bring a bad mon for NU just to counter it. Also, some players will say that serperior add a little more pay to play on metagaming. And??? Venusaur also are a good mon, and need their HA, but he are expensive too due to be a Grass-Starter that depend of their HA. Even with that, he are bannable? No.

Sun was and will always be broken in BW. Sun beeing banned from og BW OU is the statement for that. 

[caioxlive13]

3 minutes ago, CaptnBaklava said:

Sun was and will always be broken in BW. Sun beeing banned from og BW OU is the statement for that. 

All weathers are broken on BW (Except Hail because it's hail, nothing to say)because they're permanent. But on MMO, sun never was a issue on OU and even with new HA, the situation is the same

Edited September 6, 2022 by caioxlive13

[Havsha]

1 minute ago, CaptnBaklava said:

Sun was and will always be broken in BW. Sun beeing banned from og BW OU is the statement for that. 

Sun in BW, or more so weather in general, was broken because it lasted the entire battle not just a set amount of turns. Not really compariable to MMO.

[Requi]

I think using the price of an HA patch is a really bad way to balance a meta and the issue with Serperior is less that it doesn't have any pokemon in OU that can beat it's more that it is very easy to overpower it's checks compared to other pokemon and certain mons just lose to Serp depending on the set. Also a good majority of Serp's answers are weak to Stealth Rocks xd so it's not really hard to chip them down for a serp sweep.

[caioxlive13]

3 hours ago, Requi said:

I think using the price of an HA patch is a really bad way to balance a meta and the issue with Serperior is less that it doesn't have any pokemon in OU that can beat it's more that it is very easy to overpower it's checks compared to other pokemon and certain mons just lose to Serp depending on the set. Also a good majority of Serp's answers are weak to Stealth Rocks xd so it's not really hard to chip them down for a serp sweep.

In which multiverse Weavile doesn't punish very hard serperior? And serperior aren't a lead, so players could lead with Sun/Rain setters and switch with Weather Abusers to finish the job or simply scare Serperior and force a Switch out. And Grass Starters HA have the same methods to get it than other types's HA. The thing that make those HA expensive for now is because of two factors:

1. Players usually starts regions with Water starters or Fire Starters. Grass Starters are less common to be selected, so players put less HA Patch for Grass starters than other starters. 
2. Venusaur Chrolophyll and Serperior Contrary are extremelly good on PvP. Even Sceptile can be useful on NU with Unburden. And for other HA types what we have? For fire, Infernape rarely uses Punch moves unless on Physical Sets. Blaziken's HA cannot be get. Other HA can't help too much the mons competitively. For Water, Blastoise with Torrent are already good because he uses commonly a Offense Shell Smash set, and rarely a defeensive set that could take extra advantage of Rain Dish. Only doubles can use the rain dish set, because Blastoise Tank with follow me is more valuable. Swampert and Empoleon are already good monsters even without their HA. Samurott exists? XD. The only water type that can appreciate their HA and use it commonly is Feraligatr.

With the high demand on Grass HA and their smaller presence of it on Market, their price is, with that, higher.

[Huargensy]

9 hours ago, CaptnBaklava said:

Sun was and will always be broken in BW. Sun beeing banned from og BW OU is the statement for that. 

Neither sun nor others are banned, the ones that are banned are the users that increase their speed in weather if it is combined with an ability that summons these because the turns last until you can change the weather for another.

10 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

The situation isn't dramatic. Grass HA are too much expensive, so not all players had it. And somethings in OU can handle it, like Weavile , Ludicolo/Kingdra on Rain, Venusaur on Sunlight, Darma Scarf. Also, the lower tiers have some tools to offer for us, like Golbat.

 

 

This is a poor justification, you just want to tell us that those with more money in the game will have a competitive advantage when playing against those who lack money, which is not fair

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, Huargensy said:

This is a poor justification, you just want to tell us that those with more money in the game will have a competitive advantage when playing against those who lack money, which is not fair

Before we have the competitive advantage for richest players already. You have a full team of 5x31 perfect mons will give advantage over 2x31 mons that are commonly used on low ladder. The only thing that happen is the advantage gets more larger due to HAs.

[Huargensy]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Before we have the competitive advantage for richest players already. You have a full team of 5x31 perfect mons will give advantage over 2x31 mons that are commonly used on low ladder. The only thing that happen is the advantage gets more larger due to HAs.

It's different, people usually play even with 2x31 3x25 even having money, the competitive advantage is not abysmal, compared to having a poke with a hidden ability that costs almost to have a complete competitive team

[razimove]

5 hours ago, Huargensy said:

It's different, people usually play even with 2x31 3x25 even having money, the competitive advantage is not abysmal, compared to having a poke with a hidden ability that costs almost to have a complete competitive team

Using the broken economy of this game to try and justify something in this game is dumb. Not to mention, even if the game is not designed perfectly, it still behaves like a mmo, so older gen players will.have advantage over those that started today.

 

With that said, if something was to happen, id first like to see evasion boosts, and even evasion abilities nerfed or removed as a whole, that layer of rng is not necessary.

 

Also, while at it, but how come people dont discuss trappers and how nasty they are for the meta? In this case, dugtrio.

[gbwead]

7 hours ago, razimove said:

With that said, if something was to happen, id first like to see evasion boosts, and even evasion abilities nerfed or removed as a whole, that layer of rng is not necessary.

 

Also, while at it, but how come people dont discuss trappers and how nasty they are for the meta? In this case, dugtrio.

The second part of your post worries me. I don't really disagree with you, but I seriously fear the implications. 

 

The last time we had a broken mon (Garchomp SD) destroy OU for months, I remember clearly people asking for all the things you listed to be addressed first. Sand Veil was disabled, Garchomp was still very much broken and destroying OU. Wobbuffet got banned, Garchomp was still very much broken and destroying OU. Every time something gets banned, we end up in a situation where people say let's just wait and see how the meta adapts before banning anything else. It took 9 months to ban Garchomp, because at the 3rd month mark Sand Veil got disabled and at the 7 month mark, Wobbuffet got banned.

 

I have no objection to evasion abilities and AT getting nerfed. However, I really want to make sure we get our priorities in order. Serperior needs to be addressed before all those things because its devastating impact on the current metagame is far greater than all these things combined.

Edited September 7, 2022 by gbwead

[DiosSlurpuff]

I honestly can't see the problem with Serperior, I don't really see it as a threat to destroy OU...

There's Volcarona, Weavile (who can get in clean with the help of a bliss tp, for example), there's Golbat, Crobat (who takes +2 dragon pulse and can restore his hp with roost, use haze or just brave bird) .
Also, in the case of a Serperior with a substitute, who knows when the staff will think about giving infiltrator to Chandelure, Golbat, and Crobat 

 

Instead of requesting a ban/nerf from Serperior, wouldn't it be more convenient to request that they give you those 3 mons HA immediately so you don't nerf something that will inevitably be better controlled when the game is actually HA? (I can't consider this method of obtaining HA as the ''real'' one because of its cost)

[Tawla]

21 minutes ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

I honestly can't see the problem with Serperior, I don't really see it as a threat to destroy OU...

There's Volcarona, Weavile (who can get in clean with the help of a bliss tp, for example), there's Golbat, Crobat (who takes +2 dragon pulse and can restore his hp with roost, use haze or just brave bird) .
Also, in the case of a Serperior with a substitute, who knows when the staff will think about giving infiltrator to Chandelure, Golbat, and Crobat 

 

Instead of requesting a ban/nerf from Serperior, wouldn't it be more convenient to request that they give you those 3 mons HA immediately so you don't nerf something that will inevitably be better controlled when the game is actually HA? (I can't consider this method of obtaining HA as the ''real'' one because of its cost)

Just add heatran

[LifeStyleNORE]

just run blissey+weavile+weezing lol

[DiosSlurpuff]

1 hour ago, Tawla said:

Just add heatran

I thought I'd mention it, but knowing how long it takes to add new things to the game... Maybe in 2030

[caioxlive13]

Quote

I honestly can't see the problem with Serperior, I don't really see it as a threat to destroy OU...

There's Volcarona, Weavile (who can get in clean with the help of a bliss tp, for example), there's Golbat, Crobat (who takes +2 dragon pulse and can restore his hp with roost, use haze or just brave bird) .
Also, in the case of a Serperior with a substitute, who knows when the staff will think about giving infiltrator to Chandelure, Golbat, and Crobat 

 

Instead of requesting a ban/nerf from Serperior, wouldn't it be more convenient to request that they give you those 3 mons HA immediately so you don't nerf something that will inevitably be better controlled when the game is actually HA? (I can't consider this method of obtaining HA as the ''real'' one because of its cost)

Literally not all players have acess to serperior, so it not appear on all teams. and we have counters for it on OU , like Weavile and Volca(+1 quiver) and Lower-tiers Counters and Checks, like Golbat and Crobat.

 

2 hours ago, Tawla said:

Just add heatran

 

Adding Heatran = Insta-banning dugtrio for OU

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by caioxlive13

[DoubleJ]

I kinda like having a good special threat cruising around. It's really forced some changes and I'm hoping folks continue to adapt/changes are made soon to lessen its impact in the tier.

 

Access to HA's aren't really something we can control and is something that will gradually become less of a problem over time. If you think this is nutty, you should have been around during CatchMMO when a random viable catch with good iv's, nature, and ability meant at least one tournament win if you weren't terrible. 

[MadaraSixSix]

serperior counters :

 

 

the classic chandelure 

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Chandelure: 60-71 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Chandelure: 52-62 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 87.9% chance to 3HKO

12 SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

the legend skarmory 

+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 152 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 94-112 (59.1 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

108+ Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(skarmo with quick claw for secure vs serperior glare if he para you outspeed dont care)

 

the magic Accelgor 

252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Accelgor: 72-86 (42.3 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

serp dont outspeed he cant +2

252+ SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

you possible play lum berry for secure glare 

 

and the counter set up with blissy logic 

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 91-108 (25.1 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

you just use calm mind with blissy you win trust me !

 

[DoubleJ]

11 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

serperior counters :

 

 

the classic chandelure 

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Chandelure: 60-71 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Chandelure: 52-62 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 87.9% chance to 3HKO

12 SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

the legend skarmory 

+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 152 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 94-112 (59.1 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

108+ Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(skarmo with quick claw for secure vs serperior glare if he para you outspeed dont care)

 

the magic Accelgor 

252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Accelgor: 72-86 (42.3 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

serp dont outspeed he cant +2

252+ SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

you possible play lum berry for secure glare 

 

and the counter set up with blissy logic 

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 91-108 (25.1 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

you just use calm mind with blissy you win trust me !

 

Don't forget Eviolite Growlithe brah