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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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35 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

i play ou sometimes and i personally see no problem with abb like regen. The pp nerf suck but that's not related to ou. 

Me too. I see slowbro as a Regen problematic user, on a core with other regen on a stall team(thing that Madara and Solir loves to use), but for now that he didn't come, is fine. PP nerf i can't give my opinion based on my team because i don't use recovery PP on any mon. Need to talk about my matchups that becomes far more favorable vs teams that uses recovery. Yea, it makes walls a bit worse but nothing that make most part of it unviable, except stall teams.

Edited by caioxlive13
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HAs and regenerator(like av mienshao) were not breaking the balance at all, the only thing is they make OU matches longer, and this will only happened if both side pick regenerator stall things like that. If you are HO or BO player you don't even notice that the game time becomes longer to you. 

 

Then change PP into 8 to solve it, Is there any connection to all this problems and the changes made? when you nerf healing pp, isn't it makes players to chose more likely to AV mienshao also amoongus to their team? Besides, they're already very strong enough, and you chose to nerf other stall mon's pp to let regenerator becomes even more stronger cz you just make others weak. Just in fact, stall is not a strongest team type even before pp nerf, if these are strong, you will see a mount of new players copy stall team rather than Malthuzz rain and smurf offence.

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On 3/7/2023 at 9:12 AM, Ziiiiio said:

 Besides, they're already very strong enough, and you chose to nerf other stall mon's pp to let regenerator becomes even more stronger cz you just make others weak. Just in fact, stall is not a strongest team type even before pp nerf, if these are strong, you will see a mount of new players copy stall team rather than Malthuzz rain and smurf offence.

You wasn't playing when people spammed Solir's stall team(One day i've faced solir itself and lost. Someday i hope that i will get my revenge)

 

Also the HO that i've seen after update are Rain with Kabutops + Kingdra + Pelliper, but the other three rotate too, and a  Chomp/Star/Scizor/Nite/Volca HO on two variants: One using Serperior and other Breloom.

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1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

You wasn't playing when people spammed Solir's stall team(One day i've faced solir itself and lost. Someday i hope that i will get my revenge)

 

Also the HO that i've seen after update are Rain with Kabutops + Kingdra + Pelliper, but the other three rotate too, and a  Chomp/Star/Scizor/Nite/Volca HO on two variants: One using Serperior and other Breloom.

Yes so what? What does it change? What does it add to the conversation? People used meta teams and once it was stall, what about it? the meta changes ever and ever we get these spam from teams, that's not the point here.

 

The point is that this was a horrible and unnecessary update, which nerfed the healing pps making normal stall a little unfeasible and etc, now what these players can resort to is the core regen,  hyper and bulky offense players don't feel these changes, they don't feel their game getting worse, only the stall player and etc were forced to change their way of playing because of something that came in gen9 when the game goes up to gen 5, I'm not a stall player, nor a balanced player, I play in every way, at first I stupidly liked the update, but every day it's noticeable that it was something tragic to the metagame, not only OU but also UU and NU, unfortunately I think it's impossible to go back to what was before, and unfortunately we'll have to adapt to another shitty metagame, that every 5 games 4 are against offense, there is no more diversity. (maybe never had)

 

Another thing that needs to be addressed is cursed body and this horrible accupressure thing.

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28 minutes ago, NiceRNGbro said:

Another thing that needs to be addressed is cursed body and this horrible accupressure thing.

Yea. Atm i don't see any player winning finals with that. Since King's rock nerf, Kdgogogo's team(Only one that used this and get good results) vanished and Accupressure gets used by 550- elo only(Unless other player like KDgogogo have appeared on the time that i'm off).

 

Cursed body is now a weird case. Only good mon that have it is Gengar. But on last month i don't have seen none. It simply vanished.

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6 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Yea. Atm i don't see any player winning finals with that. Since King's rock nerf, Kdgogogo's team(Only one that used this and get good results) vanished and Accupressure gets used by 550- elo only(Unless other player like KDgogogo have appeared on the time that i'm off).

it doesn't matter that it has little use, it remains "broken" and very frustrating when it succeeds other than being anti-competitive, we have no reason to have that in our game.

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1 hour ago, NiceRNGbro said:

it doesn't matter that it has little use, it remains "broken" and very frustrating when it succeeds other than being anti-competitive, we have no reason to have that in our game.

Matters yes. You would like to Ban digglet from OU even if their use is basically null, just because he had AT? No. You would like to ban Tentacruel from OU just because less than 1% uses Acupressure? Also no, this is just waste of time. As long as the strat isn't hard spammed and affects many players, is ok. For example, King's rock at the time of last post discussing it, was not being spammed and are perfectly fine, and a lot underrated. Become a problem after discussion gets closed, because starts gets spammed and you see it everywhere. Serperior is other example. First two weeks, serp was broken? Yes. But at the time, aren't hard spammed due to a ability patch costs 3m. Only a few players would insta-lose. After that becomes a problem because more people got acess to the broken mon because the patch becomes cheaper.

Edited by caioxlive13
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12 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Matters yes. You would like to Ban digglet from OU even if their use is basically null, just because he had AT? No. You would like to ban Tentacruel from OU just because less than 1% uses Acupressure? Also no, this is just waste of time. As long as the strat isn't hard spammed and affects many players, is ok. For example, King's rock at the time of last post discussing it, was not being spammed and are perfectly fine, and a lot underrated. Become a problem after discussion gets closed, because starts gets spammed and you see it everywhere. Serperior is other example. First two weeks, serp was broken? Yes. But at the time, aren't hard spammed due to a ability patch costs 3m. Only a few players would insta-lose. After that becomes a problem because more people got acess to the broken mon because the patch becomes cheaper.

I'm too tired to argue with you one more time, congratulations you won this round.

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17小时前,caioxlive13 说:

You wasn't playing when people spammed Solir's stall team(One day i've faced solir itself and lost. Someday i hope that i will get my revenge)

Login and click rank, swtich to season 6 then see WHO IS OU TOP ONE that time. Then, if your reading ability is not bad, you can see that Solir is at top10. obviously I play a lot at  that time and I know much better about OU rank than what you think.

 

Then let's talk about the gaming experience, A long time game will definitely bring a bad feeling, do you always have a better experience if you have always met the HO team at rank? pp nerf let stall get less chance to win them, also if HO vs HO, tie speed competition appeared many time. The previous situation was perfect, and we need to adjust it back. 

 

Lastly, STALL WAS NOT STRONG, it just a team style which is worth to play. The emergence of regenerator makes the traditional stand under fierce competition, is healing pp nerf make any sence?

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  • 2 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/15/2023 at 11:24 AM, razimove said:

Just introduce Lando T, I promise it will be totally fine and our meta game wont suffer source: trust me bro, and while at it, boost outrage to 120.   (actually I think we should legit test outrage base 120)

Cool, consider them added. 

 

Edit: This is not real, this is just a forum post from the forum PTS.

Edited by DoubleJ
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  • 2 weeks later...
Quote

Something that was suggested internally within TC is this in the future:

1st month 1.7 to drop, no rises

2nd month 2.5 to drop no rises

3rd month 5 to drop or rise.

 

Which is where I brought up the yo-yoing thing and why a split would be better.  The above is apparently similar to how smogon handles it now?  I didn't look into the claim.

@Munya What's the logic behind the no rises for the 1st month and 2nd month?

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

@Munya What's the logic behind the no rises for the 1st month and 2nd month?

On first months no mon will raise so it would avoid tier losing mons mid-season, that could harm suspect test of mons that on the recent months are taking more than one month to conclude.

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3 hours ago, gbwead said:

@Munya What's the logic behind the no rises for the 1st month and 2nd month?

Currently on my phone, so 🐻 with me. 

 

We looked at a variety of ways to reduce the issue of yo-yo'ing and the chaos it can produce, plus that volatility you spoke on. 

 

Namely, we have little control over rises and it's chiefly a rise that has the most significant impact on a tier. For example, Gligar and Golbat moving up to UU in November, Empoleon up to OU in September, and Slowbro up to UU in January in 2021. With each of those jumps (which after a month or two came back down), the tiers were at their worst. It's evident that was mostly due to these being key defensive elements, but regardless the tiers should be protected from this fluctuation. 

 

Splitting the cutoffs solves this to an extent, but this takes it to the next level. Our game is slow, we don't have a very lively matchmaking system (sometimes you can't even get a match in the lower tiers) and official tournaments are are about one per tier per week at most (ignoring cc's). With that in mind, limiting movements makes sense, especially "harmful" rises.

 

Chasing a longer duration of stability with this change. 

Edited by DoubleJ
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8 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Currently on my phone, so 🐻 with me. 

 

We looked at a variety of ways to reduce the issue of yo-yo'ing and the chaos it can produce, plus that volatility you spoke on. 

 

Namely, we have little control over rises and it's chiefly a rise that has the most significant impact on a tier. For example, Gligar and Golbat moving up to UU in November, Empoleon up to OU in September, and Slowbro up to UU in January in 2021. With each of those jumps (which after a month or two came back down), the tiers were at their worst. It's evident that was mostly due to these being key defensive elements, but regardless the tiers should be protected from this fluctuation. 

 

Splitting the cutoffs solves this to an extent, but this takes it to the next level. Our game is slow, we don't have a very lively matchmaking system (sometimes you can't even get a match in the lower tiers) and official tournaments are are about one per tier per week at most (ignoring cc's). With that in mind, limiting movements makes sense, especially "harmful" rises.

 

Chasing a longer duration of stability with this change. 

Nothing yoyos up and down during the first and second months of each cycle. Yoyoing only happens on the third month, so limiting rises during the first and second month has absolutely no impact on yoyoing. 

 

If a pokemon is under 1.7% usage after the first month, it is very likely that it will also be below the 4.36% cutoff point on the third month. If a pokemon is over 6.7% usage after the first month, it is very likely that it will also be over the 4.36% cutoff point on the third month. If a pokemon is very likely to change tier, it is best for that pokemon to move as soon as possible so tiers can start adapting right away. When everything moves at the end of each season, we end up with complete chaos which results in very problematic unstability. 

 

One of the problem with our current system is that almost nothing moves during the first and second month. We should facilitate movements during the first and second months, not limit them more.

Take Gigalith in UU for instance:

  • in April, it was at 2.74% usage;
  • in May, it was at 2.53% usage;
  • in June, it is now at 1.65% usage.

With usage this low, Gigalith should have dropped to NU a long time ago, but the cutoff point for moving down is simply too low (1.7%) for that to ever happen. Even 2.5% would be too low. I don't see why rises would have more impact than drops. They go hand in hand. 

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Its just what was suggest, all I care about in the first 2 months is them being more difficult to have movements on than the last month. We should ideally be going into the seasonal tournament with as stable of a tier as we can so theres no last minute surprise showing up to blindside somebody that maybe had a handle on the season prior to something dropping or rising.  Unfortunately updates have partially put a real damper on that but that is out of my hands.

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19 minutes ago, Munya said:

Its just what was suggest, all I care about in the first 2 months is them being more difficult to have movements on than the last month. We should ideally be going into the seasonal tournament with as stable of a tier as we can so theres no last minute surprise showing up to blindside somebody that maybe had a handle on the season prior to something dropping or rising.  Unfortunately updates have partially put a real damper on that but that is out of my hands.

In that case, I would like to add on my previous suggestion:

1st month
Move Down Cutoff Point: 3.00%
Move Up Cutoff Point: 5.50%%

2nd month
Move Down Cutoff Point: 2.50%
Move Up Cutoff Point: 6.00%

 

3rd month
Move Down Cutoff Point: 3.75% 
Move Up Cutoff Point: 4.75%

With these cutoff points, the second month would be the month where movements are the least likely which mean tiers would unlikely be destabilized going into seasonal tournaments. The first month is the month where we see the metagames react to the new season changes, so movements should still be possible in order to deal promptly with strong usage reactions to the new metagame.

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hello! i'd like to make a suggestion about changing volcarona's moveset and why i do think it's necessary for the health of the tier. i felt motivated to post this here since i was talking with some friends on discord about the last tier shifts and we pretty much agreed that volc is currently a big issue in the tier

 

why volcarona is a problem

 

since its inception volcarona has been one of the most fearsome pokemon to play against in bw, because even with its monstruous stats it has access to quiver dance, a move incredibly safe to click because unlike dragon dance it gives volcarona defensive capabilities and not only offensive ones. this is incredibly huge for volcarona as it lets it set up in front of pokemon that could beat volcarona otherwise, like special bulky waters or chandelure; in conjunction with roost. not only that, but with its coverage volcarona can effectively beat any pokemon it wants given that it has the proper set, which is exacerbated by the presence of gems in the tier. defensive water types can lose if it has giga drain, defensive poison or fighting types can lose if it has psychic, defensive dragon types can lose if it has hp ice, etc. even blanket defensive walls like chansey can become set up fodder with safeguard/qd/roost/fire move or rest/qd/2 attacks, altho these are less common sets and usually volc gets around chansey with the help of pursuit users + hazards. in fact, volcarona alone was one of the main reasons why gems got banned in bw smogon. however here the situation is worse than in smogon bw ou.

 

what the absence of heatran is doing to the metagame

 

without heatran in the game volcarona has lost its most reliable answer. heatran provided a lot of team flexibility, fitting both in offense and more defensive oriented teams, providing a lot of utility while also having the ability to dish out offense and check important threats in the game, the most notable one being volcarona. the absence of heatran makes it so that if you want a reliable volcarona answer now you either have to play rain, or run multiple answers for it, which feels really overwhelming both when building and playing considering the extremely offensive teams volcarona fits in. this leads to an extremely offensive-oriented metagame where your best bet is to out-offense your opponent before their offense takes off

 

different moveset changes suggestions that would help volcarona feel better

 

option 1: remove quiver dance from its moveset

 

obviously, this would be the most severe change. without moves that lets it boost its speed volcarona would be easily revenge killed by things like garchomp and starmie, and without the power boost it wouldnt be able to muscle through defensive answers so easily anymore. ttar would also be a much more reliable answer

 

option 2: remove recovery moves like roost and rest from its moveset

 

this i think would be the most balanced change. removing its ability to capitalize on the defensive boosts and make it a lot more vulnerable to chip damage would be a reasonable way to let volcarona keep its identity while making its presence a lot more managable for both offensive and defensive teams.

 

option 3: remove hidden power from its moveset

 

altho i do think that this wouldn't help fix some of the issues volc has, it would certainly make it a lot easier to play around volcarona. things like dragonite, garchomp and gyarados would become much safer answers against it. the metagame would probably stay more or less the same with this change but facing volcarona would be much more managable.

 

i hope i was able to express as good as possible the problems with this pokemon in the tier, if TC disagrees or has any other suggestion, then i'd love to know

Edited by drifloo
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7 hours ago, drifloo said:

hello! i'd like to make a suggestion about changing volcarona's moveset and why i do think it's necessary for the health of the tier. i felt motivated to post this here since i was talking with some friends on discord about the last tier shifts and we pretty much agreed that volc is currently a big issue in the tier

 

why volcarona is a problem

 

since its inception volcarona has been one of the most fearsome pokemon to play against in bw, because even with its monstruous stats it has access to quiver dance, a move incredibly safe to click because unlike dragon dance it gives volcarona defensive capabilities and not only offensive ones. this is incredibly huge for volcarona as it lets it set up in front of pokemon that could beat volcarona otherwise, like special bulky waters or chandelure; in conjunction with roost. not only that, but with its coverage volcarona can effectively beat any pokemon it wants given that it has the proper set, which is exacerbated by the presence of gems in the tier. defensive water types can lose if it has giga drain, defensive poison or fighting types can lose if it has psychic, defensive dragon types can lose if it has hp ice, etc. even blanket defensive walls like chansey can become set up fodder with safeguard/qd/roost/fire move or rest/qd/2 attacks, altho these are less common sets and usually volc gets around chansey with the help of pursuit users + hazards. in fact, volcarona alone was one of the main reasons why gems got banned in bw smogon. however here the situation is worse than in smogon bw ou.

 

what the absence of heatran is doing to the metagame

 

without heatran in the game volcarona has lost its most reliable answer. heatran provided a lot of team flexibility, fitting both in offense and more defensive oriented teams, providing a lot of utility while also having the ability to dish out offense and check important threats in the game, the most notable one being volcarona. the absence of heatran makes it so that if you want a reliable volcarona answer now you either have to play rain, or run multiple answers for it, which feels really overwhelming both when building and playing considering the extremely offensive teams volcarona fits in. this leads to an extremely offensive-oriented metagame where your best bet is to out-offense your opponent before their offense takes off

 

different moveset changes suggestions that would help volcarona feel better

 

option 1: remove quiver dance from its moveset

 

obviously, this would be the most severe change. without moves that lets it boost its speed volcarona would be easily revenge killed by things like garchomp and starmie, and without the power boost it wouldnt be able to muscle through defensive answers so easily anymore. ttar would also be a much more reliable answer

 

option 2: remove recovery moves like roost and rest from its moveset

 

this i think would be the most balanced change. removing its ability to capitalize on the defensive boosts and make it a lot more vulnerable to chip damage would be a reasonable way to let volcarona keep its identity while making its presence a lot more managable for both offensive and defensive teams.

 

option 3: remove hidden power from its moveset

 

altho i do think that this wouldn't help fix some of the issues volc has, it would certainly make it a lot easier to play around volcarona. things like dragonite, garchomp and gyarados would become much safer answers against it. the metagame would probably stay more or less the same with this change but facing volcarona would be much more managable.

 

i hope i was able to express as good as possible the problems with this pokemon in the tier, if TC disagrees or has any other suggestion, then i'd love to know

As much as I do not agree with your claim about Volcarona being too strong, that much I absolutely appreciate the form you chose to present your argument. I really wish more people would be able to do it in such way (caio take notes).

 

Volcarona surely is a big threat for the tier, reflected in its 12% usage, which is a lot for a tier dominated by Garchomp. However, there are too many things that hinder its potential: first and foremost, Stealth Rock. Crippling Volcarona at the very entrance down to 50% hugely decreases it's longevity and thus, makes Volcarona rely on partners to remove rocks. As much as I love Heatran and I believe it's addition to our metagame would hugely benefit us in a healthy way, the lack of if does not make Volcarona an offensive Uber. Offensive Uber is a Pokémon that can sweep the tier with little to no effort with little or no support and Volcarona requires support to:

A) Remove rocks

B) Weaken it's checks which are very common (such as Dragonite)

C) Allow setup in a hostile environment.

 

Nowdays, we got plenty of tools to handle Volcarona in OU, especially with addition of AV (well, Assault Gear). Mienshao, Dragonite, blobs, Gyara, even Gliscor. Another thing worth considering is that Volc fares really poorly against one of the most common archetypes in OU- rain.

 

If we would have HDB (and I really hope we will not get them anytime soon), maybe then we could discuss Volcarona. Right now, it's a big threat and probably A-rank viability mon, but it's nowhere near offensive Uber. It cannot break stall and cannot sweep all by itself without team support.

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21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

As much as I do not agree with your claim about Volcarona being too strong, that much I absolutely appreciate the form you chose to present your argument. I really wish more people would be able to do it in such way (caio take notes).

 

Volcarona surely is a big threat for the tier, reflected in its 12% usage, which is a lot for a tier dominated by Garchomp. However, there are too many things that hinder its potential: first and foremost, Stealth Rock. Crippling Volcarona at the very entrance down to 50% hugely decreases it's longevity and thus, makes Volcarona rely on partners to remove rocks. As much as I love Heatran and I believe it's addition to our metagame would hugely benefit us in a healthy way, the lack of if does not make Volcarona an offensive Uber. Offensive Uber is a Pokémon that can sweep the tier with little to no effort with little or no support and Volcarona requires support to:

A) Remove rocks

B) Weaken it's checks which are very common (such as Dragonite)

C) Allow setup in a hostile environment.

 

Nowdays, we got plenty of tools to handle Volcarona in OU, especially with addition of AV (well, Assault Gear). Mienshao, Dragonite, blobs, Gyara, even Gliscor. Another thing worth considering is that Volc fares really poorly against one of the most common archetypes in OU- rain.

 

If we would have HDB (and I really hope we will not get them anytime soon), maybe then we could discuss Volcarona. Right now, it's a big threat and probably A-rank viability mon, but it's nowhere near offensive Uber. It cannot break stall and cannot sweep all by itself without team support.

thank you for the reply

just wanted to add something because i think one of the things i claimed about volc is not really represented here. i agree that the metagame has the tools to deal with volcarona now, mainly rocks and rain teams being good, but the biggest problem is how volcarona punishes building teams that want to play it safe and that can tackle more or less everything. partially because how scarce and limited its true answers are. for reference, things quoted in this post i'd argue are not really reliable volcarona answers (outside of gyarados because hp electric is not realistic)

+1 252 SpA Psychic Gem Volcarona Psychic vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mienshao: 156-184 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

even if we're accounting for fully spdef av mienshao, you're still risking a ko from a not boosting nature volc, considering that gems here are still a 1.5x boost, and this is assuming there's no sand chip and a fully hp mienshao. also, you're relying on rock slide accuracy

dragonite and gliscor drop with hp ice. just by having the weakest of u-turns on your team or just by having ttar you're already scaring dnite from entering bc if it loses multiscale then it drops with hp ice

and i'd have to disagree with volc not beating stall. i'd like to know what reliable answer volcarona has in stall that is not named blissey/chansey, because as i said volc can beat those by itself even if the sets it needs to use are unorthodox

all these teambuilding issues come from volcarona, and that's before considering that it's gonna be paired with other pokemon that you also need to beat. even if it's not top 3 usage, you want a team that can take on popular pokemon, and when you have to build a team that can win against it if it finds an opportunity to use qd, suddenly it overcomplicate things so much to the point where you're either going all out on offense or you just accept that "well, if it boosts and has this set i lose". that's the main issue i wanted to express. not much so that it's ubers worthy, because i agree with you that it's not. but rather that it makes the game so volatile and matchup-fishy that imo, it needs to get a bit undertuned, especially without heatran in the game. matter of fact, gallade was not as bad to play around as volcarona for balanced and offense imo because you had actually true answers to it that were very popular in the metagame, like scizor, a wide variety of scarf pokemon, and even pursuit tyranitar if it locked itself into psycho cut provided it was scarf gallade. i'm not gonna argue with its matchup against more defensive teams because it was definitely pretty strong against stall, but yeah. it's more about the impact volcarona has in the metagame rather than it's "brokenness" if that's a even a word

i'm not expecting too much action against it right now because it's very clear that it's not a popular pov atm. just wanted to spurr some thought about this issue that i have with it, and maybe get some conversation going about this pokemon so people can reevaluate if volcarona is really doing any good for the metagame

thanks again for the answer!

Edited by drifloo
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5 hours ago, drifloo said:



and i'd have to disagree with volc not beating stall. i'd like to know what reliable answer volcarona has in stall that is not named blissey/chansey, because as i said volc can beat those by itself even if the sets it needs to use are unorthodox
 

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 224-264 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 
 

0 Atk Hippowdon Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 340-400 (109.3 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 
-----
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 
0 Atk Tyranitar Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 612-720 (196.7 - 231.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
 
---
Also keep in mind that volcarona cannot execute many movements at the same time, if you use hp ice it bothers you mienshao AV, if you use psychic it bothers you dnite or gliscor, if you don't use gigadrain something like milotic and others can bother you, in addition to having forms of revenge like scarf chomp, scarf mienshao, priority of things like kabutops or crawdaunt to mention a few things
 
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