NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, PoseidonWrath said:

 

I pretty much agree with these statements about why Ambi isnt a problem in my eyes.

Keep in mind Ambi cant have 100 moves and since many people lock Fake out and Quick attack already, it will leave out some important moves.

 

Seed Bomb for: Golem/Quak/Golurk/Seismitoad/Omastar

 

Beat up/Pursuit for: Froslass/base form Rotom

 

U-Turn: is also a really important move to keep gaining momentum

 

Elemental Punches for: example Ice Punch for Altaria and Fire Punch for Escalavier/ Magneton/ Ferroseed

 

Return/Tail Slap/Double-Edge: really important power hitting stab moves to hit alot of mons.

 

Like its said Ambipom`s job to annoy HO and same can be said if a stall only player in OU says Togekiss is ruining the playstyle of stall in a unhealthy manner.

 

So to sum up my post in my eyes it`s Not Broken  (Feel free to change my mind)

 

U-Turn usually is the most preferred because Ambipon users can use it to grants a safe switch to other mons. For Example: 

He can switch into a Water-type/Mon with Water or Grass, in order to vanish Omastar and Golem from the face of earth.
He can switch into a mon with grass attacks to scare seismitoad out. 
He can enter with pursuit-trappers to beat Rotom and Frosslass if not a Suicide lead variant.
He can switch into a mon with Ice attacks to scare altaria out. 
He can switch into Magneton to get the kills on Ferroseed and Escavalier. 
He can go into grounds to prevent Rotom and Magneton from switching via Volt-Switch.

On resume, on early-game Ambipon don't 100% need of those moves because it can just depending of team and situation, switch and get the kill later with himself, or the mon that enter gets the kill.
Also, Togekis can annoy with flinch Stalls, but sometime toxic will land. Ambipon you need to use specific mons to beat him regardless, but using they you're giving up from other mons that could be more useful.

Edited December 13, 2022 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

17 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

U-Turn usually is the most preferred because Ambipon users can use it to grants a safe switch to other mons. 

Based on that logic, I would like to know what do you think is the difference between Ambipom using U-Turn and any other mon with access to U-Turn? 
U-Turn allow the user to switch out on w.e mon gains an advantage against w.e is in front of it. How is U-Turn Ambipom different from U-Turn Scizor, U-Turn Infernape, U-Turn Flygon or others?

Edited December 13, 2022 by gbwead

[Huargensy]

 

18 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

U-Turn usually is the most preferred because Ambipon users can use it to grants a safe switch to other mons. For Example: 
 

It's not like ambipom is the only mon that learns u-turn

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Based on that logic, I would like to know what do you think is the difference between Ambipom using U-Turn and any other mon with access to U-Turn? 
U-Turn allow the user to switch out on w.e mon gains an advantage against w.e is in front of it. How is U-Turn Ambipom different from U-Turn Scizor, U-Turn Infernape, U-Turn Flygon or others?

The biggest thing is just with triple stab he can cripple most part of Hyper offense mons. And rest of team can finish the job against ones that resist by some way, with ambi granting a safe switch to they. Not forgotting to mention, he can use u-turn but it can use other moves to help, you need to consider the possibliity on a match. Like you can't just enter against a Scizor just because he didn't take recoil dmg from life orb or regenerate HP from Leftovers, and think that are a Choice Band set - you need to consider the possiblity of rarest choice scarf variants, or Flying Gem Acrobatics. Or for example, figure that are a choice band sets and just enter with a fight type - Need to respect the possiblity of a Aerial Ace.

Edited December 13, 2022 by caioxlive13

[Bertolfoso]

I will try to put into words my thought on Ambipom. I think the pro-ban/suspect has failed to bring up one key aspect of why Ambipom is so restrictive both in teambuilding and in battle: yes it does have counters, but it's the Ambipom user that decides what they are, which makes it too much for the tier, in my opinion.

The truth is that Ambipom only needs 2 moves, Fake Out and Quick Attack to accomplish its job (revenge kill offensive pokemon/scare them out) which means it can use its remaining 2 moveslots for whatever it wants.

 

Realistically there are not many Pokemon that can fit an offensive team and check. Ones I would consider are: Golem, Escavalier, Magneton, Rotom, Golurk, Froslass, Omastar. There are some more niche picks but I picked these as are the most used as of now.

And here is where those 2 remaining moveslots come to make this monkey such a pain: Seed Bomb, Fire Punch, Low Kick, Beat Up all make these checks shaky at best.

Stronger normal stab was already mentioned (even if imo it is not really needed), while moves like Pursuit and especially U-turn play on the fact that this pokemon forces switches and have great synergy with Hazards.

Moves like Taunt imo are underplayed if the Ambipom user is scared vs fatter matchups.

 

Hyper Offense (and Offense) are gamestyles that heavily depend on momentum and Ambipom, while of course frail, which means it's hard to get in the field, totally switches momentum without really having to think. The fact that pokemon like Linoone, which even with 3 attacks struggles to have all the coverage it wants, have to waste one of their valuable moveslots for something like protect clearly shows how centralizing it is.

 

I've probably forgot to mentions something as I wrote this while being distracted by 1000 things, but these are my thoughts on the monkey. ban pls (or suspect if that will ever be a thing)

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, Bertolfoso said:

I will try to put into words my thought on Ambipom. I think the pro-ban/suspect has failed to bring up one key aspect of why Ambipom is so restrictive both in teambuilding and in battle: yes it does have counters, but it's the Ambipom user that decides what they are, which makes it too much for the tier, in my opinion.

The truth is that Ambipom only needs 2 moves, Fake Out and Quick Attack to accomplish its job (revenge kill offensive pokemon/scare them out) which means it can use its remaining 2 moveslots for whatever it wants.

 

Realistically there are not many Pokemon that can fit an offensive team and check. Ones I would consider are: Golem, Escavalier, Magneton, Rotom, Golurk, Froslass, Omastar. There are some more niche picks but I picked these as are the most used as of now.

And here is where those 2 remaining moveslots come to make this monkey such a pain: Seed Bomb, Fire Punch, Low Kick, Beat Up all make these checks shaky at best.

Stronger normal stab was already mentioned (even if imo it is not really needed), while moves like Pursuit and especially U-turn play on the fact that this pokemon forces switches and have great synergy with Hazards.

Moves like Taunt imo are underplayed if the Ambipom user is scared vs fatter matchups.

 

Hyper Offense (and Offense) are gamestyles that heavily depend on momentum and Ambipom, while of course frail, which means it's hard to get in the field, totally switches momentum without really having to think. The fact that pokemon like Linoone, which even with 3 attacks struggles to have all the coverage it wants, have to waste one of their valuable moveslots for something like protect clearly shows how centralizing it is.

 

I've probably forgot to mentions something as I wrote this while being distracted by 1000 things, but these are my thoughts on the monkey. ban pls (or suspect if that will ever be a thing)

Simply ambipon suffers from the 4 moveslot syndrome, because using for example, Beat Up and Fire Punch, means that Golem and Omastar will not have too much trouble against it. But is like i sayed, he can use just one of many options that he have to vanish with part of their checks, and u-turn to mindlessy switch to a mon that can finish the job. And unless opponent already revealed which one he have, you need to respect all possibilitys that he can have. So to your safety clean it, you would need to run for example, with Escavalier, Rotom and Omastar/Golem, so you can counter with the one that ambipon can't kill. This is absurdely restrictive, you need to run 3 mons just to one of them safety vanish ambipon out, and you couldn't figure immediataly which one will vanish it. At least a suspect test must be considerated.
If a suspect test would be started for him, the question discussed behind Ambipon will be he being Unhealthy. Defensively a acceptable amount of things could check it, so he doesn't fit the Offensive-Uber charactheristic. Doesn't fit the Support-Uber charactheristic too, because Ambipon don't create a favorable situation for other mon invalidate Hyper offense, he itself invalidate it. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by caioxlive13

[JDteufel]

Rate? 

Azumarill @ Leftovers  
Ability: Huge Power  
Tera Type: Water  
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe  
Adamant Nature  
IVs: 0 SpA  
- Aqua Jet  
- Double-Edge  
- Belly Drum  
- Superpower  

 

Druddigon @ Assault Vest  
Ability: Rough Skin  
Tera Type: Dragon  
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe  
Adamant Nature  
IVs: 0 SpA  
- Dragon Claw  
- Earthquake  
- Fire Punch  
- Sucker Punch  

 

Steelix @ Leftovers  
Ability: Sturdy  
Tera Type: Steel  
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def  
Impish Nature  
IVs: 0 SpA / 0 Spe  
- Gyro Ball  
- Earthquake  
- Roar  
- Stealth Rock  

 

Mantine @ Leftovers  
Ability: Water Absorb  
Tera Type: Water  
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD  
Calm Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Defog  
- Scald  
- Toxic  
- Roost  

 

Sceptile @ Life Orb  
Ability: Overgrow  
Tera Type: Grass  
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe  
Timid Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Substitute  
- Flamethrower  
- Giga Drain  
- Dragon Pulse  

 

Eelektross @ Choice Specs  
Ability: Levitate  
Tera Type: Electric  
EVs: 132 HP / 252 SpA / 124 Spe  
Modest Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Flamethrower  
- Giga Drain  
- Thunderbolt  
- Volt Switch  

[Huargensy]

48 minutes ago, JDteufel said:

 

 

Sceptile @ Life Orb  
Ability: Overgrow  
Tera Type: Grass  
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe  
Timid Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Flamethrower  
 

 

 

💀

[RysPicz]

Ez scouted

[pachima]

1 hour ago, JDteufel said:

Rate? 

Azumarill @ Leftovers  -> Sitrus Berry 
Ability: Huge Power  
Tera Type: Water  
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe  -> You might want to outspeed Mantine
Adamant Nature  
IVs: 0 SpA  
- Aqua Jet  
- Double Edge -> Return  (After Belly drum you won't need any extra power, and the recoil is bad)
- Belly Drum  
- Superpower  

 

Druddigon @ Assault Vest  
Ability: Rough Skin  
Tera Type: Dragon  
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe  
Adamant Nature  
IVs: 0 SpA  
- Dragon Claw  
- Earthquake  
- Fire Punch  
- Sucker Punch  

 

Steelix @ Leftovers  
Ability: Sturdy  
Tera Type: Steel  
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def  
Impish Nature  -> If you are using minimum speed for Gyro ball, you might prefer Relaxed nature
IVs: 0 SpA / 0 Spe  
- Gyro Ball  
- Earthquake  
- Roar  
- Stealth Rock  

 

Mantine @ Leftovers  
Ability: Water Absorb  
Tera Type: Water  
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD  -> You might want to replace some SpDef into Def, since Mantine already comfortably tanks most special moves even without full investment
Calm Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Defog  
- Scald  
- Toxic  
- Roost  

 

Sceptile @ Life Orb  
Ability: Overgrow  
Tera Type: Grass  
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe  
Timid Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Substitute  
- Flamethrower  -> I assume you meant Hidden Power Fire
- Giga Drain  
- Dragon Pulse  

 

Eelektross @ Choice Specs  -> Life Orb/Expert Belt/Wise Glasses/Whatever (The beauty of Eelektross is that it has amazing coverage, thus it doesn't want to be locked in a single move. Get a boosting item, but allow it to freely switch moves)
Ability: Levitate  
Tera Type: Electric  
EVs: 132 HP / 252 SpA / 124 Spe  
Modest Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Flamethrower  
- Giga Drain  
- Thunderbolt  
- Volt Switch  

 

The changes I would do for individual sets are in Bold. As a team, you might have a few issues against Scarf Blaziken, which would be another reason to get more defense investment on Mantine, and fight spam in general. Beware of Vaniluxe as well. Maybe replace Druddigon for another bulky offensive Pokemon that better handles these issues.
This is not the place to discuss builds, however, so it would be better to go to the appropriate thread.

[gbwead]

Thank you for the Nidoqueen and Cloyster threads. Please make one for vaporeon too. 

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Thank you for the Nidoqueen and Cloyster threads. Please make one for vaporeon too. 

What is the issue with Vaporeon? Just another water with great special bulk and that have a 16 PP recovery move. What makes it so good on a tier historically dominated by Rotom and Eelektross?

[gbwead]

On 4/9/2023 at 8:28 PM, gbwead said:

Thank you for the Nidoqueen and Cloyster threads. Please make one for vaporeon too. 

I can make the thread if necessary. 

[Munya]

Maybe its obvious to everyone but I feel like at the very least this part of caoix's post is valid enough to be answered even if its a short answer.

 

"What is the issue with Vaporeon?"

[gbwead]

16 minutes ago, Munya said:

Maybe its obvious to everyone but I feel like at the very least this part of caoix's post is valid enough to be answered even if its a short answer.

 

"What is the issue with Vaporeon?"

Very few offensive mons can afford to switch into it. It could easily be labeled as uber defensive.

[DoubleJ]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Very few offensive mons can afford to switch into it. It could easily be labeled as uber defensive.

We'll get a thread up, give us some time. 

[drewq]

2 hours ago, Munya said:

Maybe its obvious to everyone but I feel like at the very least this part of caoix's post is valid enough to be answered even if its a short answer.

 

"What is the issue with Vaporeon?"

Almost all of the best wallbreakers in the tier will run out of PP before breaking Vap (choiced Blaziken/Braviary come to mind and of course Vap just laughs at Azu). 

 

The best offensive check (AV Eel) not only is extremely susceptible to the substantial chip Vap is capable of dealing but is also very one-dimensional (what I mean by this is you know what it wants to do, it has little variation unlike the aforementioned threats). No matter what you will not OHKO Vap, and unlike other defensive behemoths you are always risking significant chip or a burn. 

 

Until you have the entire set scouted there is only one guaranteed defensive counter (Lanturn) otherwise you run the risk of catching a Toxic or having your own Toxic invalidated with Heal Bell. 

 

Despite this I'm not certain it is ban-worthy and a thread to discuss would be awesome. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by drewq

[gbwead]

We also need a Scrafty thread. My offer to make the thread still stands if TC members don't have the time.

[NiceRNGbro]

49 minutes ago, gbwead said:

We also need a Scrafty thread.

Why

[ArtOfKilling]

On 4/12/2023 at 12:00 AM, Munya said:

Maybe its obvious to everyone but I feel like at the very least this part of caoix's post is valid enough to be answered even if its a short answer.

 

"What is the issue with Vaporeon?"

Vaporeon is a really bulky phys wall in both defense and special defense too with only 2 weaknesses which are Electric and Grass. As you can see it has higher HP and Special Defense Stat when compared to Quagsire which is a common Physical Wall in NU. Comparing Vaporeon's situation in NU and UU is very simple. As I said it can only be pressured by Electric and Grass mons which we suffer from a shortage in NU, Unlike UU which has options both offensive and defensive options which can come take A Scald or a Toxic from Vaporeon with the ability of either 1 shotting it or pressuring it to switch out. Examples: Venusaur,Shaymin,Roserade,Jolteon,Rotom-Mow,Empoleon. These are 6 options in UU that can both defensively come take a scald or toxic and put in pressure into Vaporeon. As for NU there is a scarcity in Grass type mons in general as we only have Sceptile, and Ludicolo which isn't utilitized outside of rain. While keeping in mind that these two options don't have a health regen move like Venusaur, Shaymin or Roserade "Synthesis" when coming on a scald switch. Same points of comparison can be made towards the Electric types in NU, basically there aren't many enough and they don't get health regen moves. Yet again they can't get a guranteed exchange when switched against Vaporeon. 

 

In the end , physical attacking mons have a difficult time getting through Vaporeon due to its bulk and ability to gain a guranteed x2 Leftovers health regen everytime it comes on the field due to the accessibility of the move Protect.

[ArtOfKilling]

Not to Mention a specific Bulk Up Scrafty thread needs to be opened aswell, I'm sorry but I ain't letting these overpowered centralizing mons go off the radar. Whether a Usage drop forced it to go to the tier below or not these mons like Scrafty,Nidoqueen and Vaporeon should nowhere be around NU.

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, ArtOfKilling said:

Vaporeon is a really bulky phys wall in both defense and special defense too with only 2 weaknesses which are Electric and Grass. As you can see it has higher HP and Special Defense Stat when compared to Quagsire which is a common Physical Wall in NU. Comparing Vaporeon's situation in NU and UU is very simple. As I said it can only be pressured by Electric and Grass mons which we suffer from a shortage in NU, Unlike UU which has options both offensive and defensive options which can come take A Scald or a Toxic from Vaporeon with the ability of either 1 shotting it or pressuring it to switch out. Examples: Venusaur,Shaymin,Roserade,Jolteon,Rotom-Mow,Empoleon. These are 6 options in UU that can both defensively come take a scald or toxic and put in pressure into Vaporeon. As for NU there is a scarcity in Grass type mons in general as we only have Sceptile, and Ludicolo which isn't utilitized outside of rain. While keeping in mind that these two options don't have a health regen move like Venusaur, Shaymin or Roserade "Synthesis" when coming on a scald switch. Same points of comparison can be made towards the Electric types in NU, basically there aren't many enough and they don't get health regen moves. Yet again they can't get a guranteed exchange when switched against Vaporeon. 

 

In the end , physical attacking mons have a difficult time getting through Vaporeon due to its bulk and ability to gain a guranteed x2 Leftovers health regen everytime it comes on the field due to the accessibility of the move Protect.

""Vaporeon is a really bulky phys wall in both defense and special defense too"

Great physical bulk not, because Vaporeon only had a very good HP but the physical defense stat of Vaporeon is a Joke(imo 60 is very bad). He needs full investment to have a decent bulk meaning he can't make their special bulk better. Special Attackers could exploit that weakness easily and mons able to 2HKO it with special attacks would have a easily life since the vaporeon's spread is locked on Bold 252 HP/252 Def/6 Sp. Atk or Sp. Def(You can't go with Sp. Def otherwise you're opening windows to a Physical mon OHKO or 2HKO it). And i need to remember that most used Eletric and Grass-type attacks of metagaming, that are main weakness of vaporeon, are most part  Special Attacks?

Edited April 13, 2023 by caioxlive13

[ArtOfKilling]

11 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Special Attackers could exploit that weakness easily and mons able to 2HKO it with special attacks would have a easily life since the vaporeon's spread is locked on Bold 252 HP/252 Def/6 Sp. Atk or Sp. Def(You can't go with Sp. Def otherwise you're opening windows to a Physical mon

252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 82-97 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 102-120 (43 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 96-114 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 96-114 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Samurott Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 104-124 (43.8 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Enjoy, no specical attacker is able to break through Vaporeon other than Sceptile, Period.

[caioxlive13]

55 minutes ago, ArtOfKilling said:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 82-97 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 102-120 (43 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 96-114 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 96-114 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Samurott Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 104-124 (43.8 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Enjoy, no specical attacker is able to break through Vaporeon other than Sceptile, Period.

What about Nidoqueen? 5th TC member didn't give their vote yet... So it will be allowed until he votes.

 

Also:

252+ SpA Life Orb Eelektross Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 112-133 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252+ SpA Life Orb Eelektross Discharge vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 174-211 (73.4 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 

 

And on this calc i consider 31 IVs for Sp. Def. Part of players don't run 31 IVs, and prefer a 25 Average since it's still good for tanking the other mons you've mentioned. On that case:

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Eelektross Discharge vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 182-218 (76.7 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Eelektross Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 114-135 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

And before you talk, pachima, 14 posts before, recomended to a people asking for help on teambuild to have a Special Eeleektross. So it are a valid choice to meta, and not a gimmick, otherwise he would recomend shifting it to Physical.

 

[ArtOfKilling]

11 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

What about Nidoqueen? 5th TC member didn't give their vote yet... So it will be allowed until he votes.

My friend you can't bring a potentially banned in the future mon in the discussion of Vaporeon, It's unacceptable. You're also mentioning Eelektross which is slower than Vaporeon, and not only Vaporeon can click Protect but It can Baton Pass too and switch to Nidoqueen to predict a switch if you are not using U-turn. Hence why Vaporeon's best partner is Nidoqueen (74.87)% Pairing Percentage.

Also What does Eelektross do against Nidoqueen?

If a wall can only get passed by 1 or 2 mons in the tier that definitely means it's broken.

Both Nidoqueen and Vaporeon need to get banned asap. No further explanation needed from my part.

Edited April 13, 2023 by ArtOfKilling