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NU Tier Discussion Request Thread


Munya

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13 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

You can't go with Sp. Def otherwise you're opening windows to a Physical mon OHKO or 2HKO it

Vapo can go Sp. Def. Scald is a huge threat to Physical attackers, most of them can't afford the risk of getting burned.

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There should be some wait before any action is taken on Vaporeon. Yes its winrate is quite high but it's comparable to other pokemon used mainly by good players and other stall oriented pokemon. The metagame hasnt developped and is really centered around Nidoqueen and stuff.

Its usage is pretty low too, when people start really abusing it then we'll know that we should act

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On 4/12/2023 at 8:11 PM, caioxlive13 said:

What about Nidoqueen? 5th TC member didn't give their vote yet... So it will be allowed until he votes.

 

Also:

252+ SpA Life Orb Eelektross Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 112-133 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252+ SpA Life Orb Eelektross Discharge vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 174-211 (73.4 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 

 

And on this calc i consider 31 IVs for Sp. Def. Part of players don't run 31 IVs, and prefer a 25 Average since it's still good for tanking the other mons you've mentioned. On that case:

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Eelektross Discharge vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 182-218 (76.7 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Eelektross Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 114-135 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

And before you talk, pachima, 14 posts before, recomended to a people asking for help on teambuild to have a Special Eeleektross. So it are a valid choice to meta, and not a gimmick, otherwise he would recomend shifting it to Physical.

 

 

On 4/11/2023 at 4:09 PM, drewq said:

The best offensive check (AV Eel) not only is extremely susceptible to the substantial chip Vap is capable of dealing but is also very one-dimensional (what I mean by this is you know what it wants to do, it has little variation unlike the aforementioned threats). No matter what you will not OHKO Vap, and unlike other defensive behemoths you are always risking significant chip or a burn. 

Read the thread you are commenting on!

 

1 (somewhat) good check does not invalidate how overbearing Vaporeon's defensive presence can be.

Edited by drewq
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34 minutes ago, drewq said:

 

Read the thread you are commenting on!

 

1 (somewhat) good check does not invalidate how overbearing Vaporeon's defensive presence can be.

2, Luxray can have a chance if comes with U-Turn from a partner(Both Special and Guts variations, he doesn't care about being burned).

But yea... still are a low number and Luxray is not that great on tier. At least he has acess to Ice Fang and can predict and chip a lot Nidoqueen if it dares to switch-in.

 

(Before talk,  i'm mentioning possible checks. If they are good or not on tier isn't my problem).

Edited by caioxlive13
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1 hour ago, NiceRNGbro said:

Really Ciatox, I think parasect should be used more to take down vaporeon, it has Dry Skin and is grass, should be enough. 

And you lose immediatly to Nidoqueen. Eelektross can escape with a predicted U-turn and Luxray can predict a Ice Fang/Facade(If burned) against Nidoqueen.

 

Parasect is full trash. Luxray can have a small niche as wallbreak.

Edited by caioxlive13
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The only way I beat Vaporeon is by praying to Bidoof 24/7 to not let scald burn me. Usually my prayers aren't answered. The false prophet vaporeon needs to be smited! All my homies hate vaporeon.

 

Don't get me started on scrafty, dude's overbearing as his baggy pants, you either kill him in 1-2 turns or you get swept. Not even hitmontop can survive most of the time after the CC defense reduction, this is pain.

Edited by RenDude
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@Munya, I made the thread for you. Please post it.

 

 

Quote

 

b12798e7341b552dfacf60986f92a3f9.png
 


As soon as Vaporeon dropped to NU by usage, its presence in the tier has been felt. Currently, ranked as the 11th most played pokemon (13.56% usage) with an impressive 57.61% win rate, Vaporeon seems to be thriving. 

 

Thanks to its enormous 130 HP base stat paired with a respectable 95 SpDef base stat and a good 110 SpAtk base stat, Vaporeon - commonly played as a wall - can easily afford to invest most of its EVs in Defense. This stat distribution allows Vaporeon to wall off a good portion of the physical and special threats in the metagame simultaneously.

 

On top of that, Vaporeon’s Water Absorb ability could be seen as a great asset in the tier. Out of the 40 NU pokemon by usage (above 4.36%), 11 are water types (Cloyster, Vaporeon, Mantine, Quagsire, Azumarill, Tentacruel, Slowbro, Qwilfish, Sharpedo, Slowking & Lanturn). Thanks to its ability and typing, Vaporeon is usually not directly threatened by these pokemons while being able to threaten most of them on top of the rest of the tier with a potential burn from Scald.

 

When it comes to its movepool, Vaporeon is quite predictable despite having a lot of options. When it’s played as a wall, Vaporeon is almost always played with these 3 moves: Wish, Protect and Scald. The last move varies a lot based on the teambuild, but it’s possible to narrow it down to these common options: Toxic, Haze, Calm Mind, Heal Bell, Baton Pass, Ice Beam, Roar, etc. Therefore, we can expect Vaporeon to provide a lot of support to teams, but this comes at the cost of being susceptible to Toxic and potential set up mons depending on its set. 

 

As a reference point for whoever might be unfamiliar with Vaporeon, here are some some sample sets:

Defensive/Support

Spoiler

Vaporeon @ Leftovers

Bold / Calm Nature    

Ability: Water Absorb  

- Scald

- Wish

- Protect

- Haze / Toxic / Heal Bell / Calm Mind / Ice Beam / Baton Pass / Roar

Offensive

Spoiler

Vaporeon @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry

Timid / Modest Nature    

Ability: Water Absorb  

- Scald / Surf

- Stored Power / Synchronoise / Copycat / Toxic / Ice Beam

- Substitute / Rest / Hidden Power 

- Calm Mind

Support

Spoiler

Vaporeon @ Leftovers

Timid / Bold / Calm Nature    

Ability: Water Absorb  

- Substitute / Aqua Ring / Focus Energy

- Baton Pass

- Scald

- Toxic / Protect

Important note: A lot changed since the last time Vaporeon was NU, it did not have access to Calm Mind, Recovery Moves had 16 PP, etc.

The tier council suspects Vaporeon might fit some Uber characteristics and/or is unhealthy for NU. Your input on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Edited by gbwead
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4 hours ago, gbwead said:

@Munya, I made the thread for you. Please post it.

 

 

 

Forget to mention Possible Counters/Checks. Although isn't too much, basically Luxray, not caring about burn(Special Sets, and Physicals too because it has Guts avaliable), however is a bit gimmick, and Eelektross Special Variants, and since Eelektross is slow, physical variants haven't a chance to enter, because users are fearing a 30% Burn chance. Not sure about Rotom and Sceptile.

Edited by caioxlive13
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I just saw for the second time a Bulk Up Scrafty win vs an Unaware Rocky Helmet Quagsire. I have concerns regarding Scrafty threat level in NU. Imo, we need a thread to look into it. 

 

Also, on another note, why is Venomoth still banned? It's been rotting in BL2 for months and I don't see why it's not getting tested.

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Some calls for Quagsire and Gastrodon to move up just because of hazards. That's silly. Be happy these blobs won't carry Toxic anymore unless they sacrifice their already scarce coverage in EQ/EP, Scald, or Ice Beam. 

 

They'll likely rise by usage anyways and if usage is wicked high, we'll move 'em up before the next season (since we're giving a try to 3 month movements).

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2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Some calls for Quagsire and Gastrodon to move up just because of hazards. That's silly. Be happy these blobs won't carry Toxic anymore unless they sacrifice their already scarce coverage in EQ/EP, Scald, or Ice Beam. 

 

They'll likely rise by usage anyways and if usage is wicked high, we'll move 'em up before the next season (since we're giving a try to 3 month movements).

Could you please clarify why you think calling for Quagsire to move up is silly, when on Smogon it's classed as RU which would be BL2 on MMO, has access to three new hazards in Stealth Rocks, Spikes and Toxic Spikes making it a great utility in loads of different teambuilds and most importantly access to Unaware which shuts down a lot of the physical set up attackers in the tier bar stuff like Azumarill etc (since it's forced to give up Water Absorb).

 

Yes, it won't be able to cover all of these in its movepool without risking being too passive, but already Stealth Rocks / Scald / Toxic / Recover is great, replacing Toxic with another hazard setter if needed.

 

Gastrodon is also great but Quagsire could pose more of an issue right now, not to mention the fact that we still have Vaporeon.

 

Could you please define the % range you're thinking for 'if usage is wicked high'? As it stands there are no usage indicators for the next two months, which is why I proposed this question, and keen to know what makes you think Quagsire will be healthy in what will now be a hazard heavy meta? 

 

Anyway looks like I'll likely be avoiding NU for a while longer...

 

P.S. I don't think we need HDB yet.

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@Imperial

 

We already have hazard setters in NU, adding more won't make a significant impact. Both Gastro and Quag will be limited by their moveset, and I anticipate adjusting to these threats will include a rise in things like Vileplume, Roselia, Lilligant, Ludicolo, and other grass types.

 

Also, using RU as a comparison isn't the same as considering a ban. If they go up naturally, as expected, then there you go. "Wicked high usage" is tbd but a good comparison is the high usage moves we made after the first round of HA's. I'd have to look those up. 

 

And I agree, no Heavy-Duty-Boots yet, but getting close. Scyther will keep praying in the meantime. 

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On 4/30/2023 at 5:06 PM, DoubleJ said:

@Imperial

 

We already have hazard setters in NU, adding more won't make a significant impact. Both Gastro and Quag will be limited by their moveset, and I anticipate adjusting to these threats will include a rise in things like Vileplume, Roselia, Lilligant, Ludicolo, and other grass types.

 

Also, using RU as a comparison isn't the same as considering a ban. If they go up naturally, as expected, then there you go. "Wicked high usage" is tbd but a good comparison is the high usage moves we made after the first round of HA's. I'd have to look those up. 

 

And I agree, no Heavy-Duty-Boots yet, but getting close. Scyther will keep praying in the meantime. 

I wouldn't say Quagsire would be limited in its moveset. It will most likely possess Stealth Rocks as the default hazard option and ultimate rock setter option alongside Piloswine, but it can also run Spikes/Toxic Spikes depending on its other teammates. For me, Stealth Rocks / Scald / Toxic / Recover and possessing Unaware makes it amazing enough on stall/defensive teams with the ability to freely stack hazards without feeling pressured by offensive physical mons (unless it gets pressured by stuff like CB Sharpedo/Azumarill etc) but that's where other teammates can cover it.

 

On second thoughts I don't think Gastrodon is an issue for the tier, to be honest it shouldn't be in NU but that was a separate issue with how the usage system has been causing everything to drop down at once.

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On 4/30/2023 at 4:25 PM, DoubleJ said:

Some calls for Quagsire and Gastrodon to move up just because of hazards. That's silly. Be happy these blobs won't carry Toxic anymore unless they sacrifice their already scarce coverage in EQ/EP, Scald, or Ice Beam. 

 

They'll likely rise by usage anyways and if usage is wicked high, we'll move 'em up before the next season (since we're giving a try to 3 month movements).

This logic foils to itself.

If people replace older moves for the new hazards, then the hazards make it a better Pokemon. Since Quagsire is already a very dominant wall in the tier, it is more than understandable that it should be at least discussed.

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9 hours ago, pachima said:

This logic foils to itself.

If people replace older moves for the new hazards, then the hazards make it a better Pokemon. Since Quagsire is already a very dominant wall in the tier, it is more than understandable that it should be at least discussed.

People weren't calling for discussion, they were calling for a ban. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

As we have recently learnt what could potentially be dropping and rising in the tier I would like to take a moment to request a discussion about Venusaur and the consequences it could potentially have if it were to drop. 

Firstly we can talk about the last time Venusaur was in NU and how it effected the tier back then. Pre-HA Venusaur was healthy for the tier had very decent usage and still had reliable checks. The main reason I am bringing this point up is due to those 'checks' now no longer being in the tier. Previously we had access to both clefable and nidoqueen which were great options at stopping venusaur - nidoqueen is no longer here and clefable looks to be moving up. We're losing the best checks to something that was very prevalent in the meta the last time it was around. Currently I can't see many suitable checks and at best I can see altaria and a half check is bronzor which can't keep up with venusaur.

Now let's talk about the addition of it's HA, I don't think I need to mention this too in depth, but we can all see why it's a great ability and the fact there are many viable setters in NU to capitalise and provide sunnyday, Sableye and Whimsicott being the main ones... there are more but i don't think we need to mention past these two. Venu then gets the chance to growth or even sleep anything it wants in the tier with no issue. The threat a correct growth call or sleep into growth provides for venu is seriously so threatening to the tier and the handful of checks for it.

Finally I want to also talk about the potential addition of Gigalith to NU - if both Gigalith and Venusaur are NU we are sure to see a return to weather battles, between sun teams and sand teams gigalith would enable stoutland sandslash teams to run through most of the tier, the fact u can still add venusaur to a team like this make it fit and have a slight answer for opposing sun teams and also have an answer for altaria through weatherball in sand is ridiculous on top to consider.

I don't think Venusaur makes for a healthy meta game and would like to further discuss this in a discussion thread made for Venusaur, since this is just an initial comment I hope TC won't just straight up ignore it and we can have a discussion thread made for this. 

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