YagamiNoir

..So? What it now put to sleep was a Sleep Talker, which means nothing on the team is as much dead weight as you think it is due to Spore, nor can Breloom do it again until it wakes up, meaning tons more things counter it. Also depends on the moves of the Sleep Talk Pokemon I suppose, it might be too much of a gamble to be called reliable if the Sleep Talk Pokemon doesn't have most of it's moves being able to hit Breloom hard enough with, but at least it's effective in some situations, even if it's slower. Heck, you don't even have to stay in with your Sleep Talk Pokemon on Breloom, all it's supposed to do is to activate Sleep clause, you can just use something else that isn't crippled by Sleep now that it can't do it again which is pretty much most Fighting type resists. Sleep Talk also kinda answers your former question in terms of the whole team preview thing. Sure you kinda need to keep your counter in fit shape to do it's job so preferably you'd keep it safe for other things, but this is kinda relevant to practically anything that carries sleep; you're obviously not going to put your sweeper to sleep or something, and although perhaps say Surf is kind of an easy move to switch into for Breloom it otherwise can't really come in as much as you think it can. If you have a Sleep Talker on your team, it's the best thing to shove out. If not, stick what you think is the least risky.

I don't understand how that relates to the bolded part. Without team preview, ironically, this is more manageable -- well, the fact that you can send out something unexpected to pick up sleep, that is. EDIT: Page King.

Fixed. Grass types aren't immune to sleep completely, it's just that the most common Sleep moves are Powder-ish moves. I thought I already said Taunt Hypno and Altaria beat the damn thing, although I suppose no one runs Taunt on it anyways. That's not too much to Vileplume, the only real thing about Breloom to them is sleep, and without it it can't do anything to Exeggutor and the like at all. Also, although both sides can predict, you can kinda send out the best thing in your team to absorb sleep instead of letting your counter in to do that, should you think it has to stay awake to effectively stop Breloom. Sub/Seed sets are completely walled by stuff like Misdreavus and Haunter especially if they have Taunt or Sub themselves. Breloom needs like...one or two turns to get something to Sleep, pick up a Sub, and deal damage. There are more aggressive Spore and immediately Focus Punch strategies but what justifies this one turn is relevant on clerics and not on Breloom? Also, while I suppose this is pretty rare, don't unexpected Sleep Talk users also prove pretty effective against a Breloom?

Since when did the ability to put something to sleep become a banworthy factor? EDIT: Heck, UU has more things to absorb sleep than even OU does, (well, only Primeape Vital Spirit I guess, but meh) you get the picture. Sleep isn't really a banworthy factor. You have something called clerics, you know. That and I suppose Altaria's pretty decent at sucking up a Spore due to it's typing and Natural Cure. Spore aside it shouldn't be a problem at all. I mean, stuff like Claydol/Nidoqueen/previously mentioned Grass types/Misdreavus stop it pretty decently.

And why should the asleep Exeggutor and Vileplume stay in, exactly? Well, I suppose to avoid risk, but it's not like a Breloom is going to sit there unless it predicts the double switch. Breloom still can't break it. At all. Bar say I suppose Double-Edge or something. If necessary it can just Taunt it to stop more utility shenanigans.

So, one month, huh. I'll probably make this early because semesters on May. If my brain doesn't fail me.

You don't know what to expect, but why does Gengar always get the favourable end of the situation? I mean, I mention Protect as a means to scout for Gengar's moves, but that doesn't mean you use it directly, being you are a Vaporeon, and in that the most common and likely moves it's gonna go for are either say Thunderbolt, Substitute and Taunt, the latter two of which kinda backfire on a Vaporeon that is using Surf, although less so on Sub. Exactly. You're just putting so much default advantage on Gengar that's not really understandable. It's really good and versatile, but throughout this you've kinda been giving the fact that "oh Gengar always wins this scenario because it can do this and do that, and you won't see it coming". What's your reasoning, "I have more options, so I at least more commonly get favourable scenarios?" Gengar's primary means when it comes to bulky Pokemon is it's utility and passive effects. Gengar's Special Attack may be high, but most of the arguments here centralize on how "oh, if etc switches in it's going to be disabled with some utility move/burn or that Sludge Bomb/Shadow Ball Defense drop screws things up." I daresay Gengar doesn't 2HKO a lot of stuff, given Arcanine can still take two STAB moves for instance (although again, passive effects, I know.) In fact, if it weren't for it's utility in stuff like Will-O-Wisp and Disable and say the entire kit of it's tricks it would just be a more powerful, with a better typing that allows in to switch in on things but slightly slower Starmie of some sort.

This is probably the last time I'm going to try convincing you of stuff here. No offense. They don't wall it, but they are effective against specific sets, and specific moves. Marginally, Vaporeon can play aggressively versus Gengar especially if you can predict that Taunt, in reference to the whole brutal Taunt/Will-O-Wisp/Dual STAB set we discussed a while ago. Also, speaking of Vaporeon, with apologies for my possible ignorance, doesn't the thing get Protect on it's sets? Like, you might as well come in, Protect (unless he predicts it and uses Taunt on switch in) and see what he does. I suppose it's possible that some bluffs may happen here and there, but why not, it's pretty effective. Then again I suppose most people don't carry it for I daresay Hidden Power or Gyarados? Still, Protect is still kinda viable on the thing. 0 Vaporeon Surf vs. 4/0 Gengar: 74-88 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery "How do you plan to know a Gengar's set without having a really sour impact by the time you do, and it might have already done what it needs by then?" As much as it is again an inexpressible theoretical fact and is entirely dependent on player skill, well, it's like I said -- you kinda have to accept the fact that risks are in a game and something without safe switches isn't necessarily something that is, well -- unhealthy. Again, I probably won't manage to persuade you because you're demanding a metagame that is fully centralized on safe switch ins. The risk is more than most others and is recognizable, and I used to be an advocate for your reasoning last year but eventually shifted it away. You act as if Gengar takes out a Pokemon in two turns or something, which is pretty exaggerative if you ask me. Also, why is only the player dealing with Gengar that's having the risk? Gengar kinda has it's downs after revealing all of it's moves, and it has only room for four moves instead of the entire versatile kit it has. That and Gengar always makes the correct plays for some reason instead of the player being able to pull off predictions and stuff. Again, this targets your overall mindset of "everything needs to be safe, and with every Pokemon must come with a hard counter to be healthy." It's personally not a very good mindset to have, but I suppose you're entitled to it. Why does something that is one of a kind have to be banned? I mean, we have Curselax as a one-of-a-kind setup attacker and Special Wall, but the banning of this thing will probably top off the other three that all got similarly banned due to having relentless and merciless physical attacking prowess destroying everything. If anything, the metagame moreso benefits from Gengar's niches rather than grow unhealthy by them. That being one of a kinda merits it staying more than it needs to go, I guess.

I'm saying it can be useful and is viable when you were questioning it's usefulness. I'm not saying it's superior to Adamant when an offensively inclined Armaldo and a defensively inclined one do entirely different things. EDIT: Why is this thread being derailed.

You very much underestimate it's physical bulk, although I suppose that's just me. Armaldo's typing makes it not that vulnerable because not a lot of things, particularly most Normal types, don't have an SE move to hit it with commonly, being Iron Tail. Stuff like Kangashkan and Granbull get walled pretty nicely.

My face when "Armaldo". Well, if that's what's being put into the equation, but a Swords Dance Zangoose only gets 3 moves like I said. I suppose it's enough. Why are you calcing 252/0 Armaldo though? It capped at 96% max during a former calc, but okay.

Bulky Misdreavus can probably pit off against Slowking pretty well be it either Curse or Calm Mind, given it can Taunt it, Pain Split it for recovery, Toxic it if it decides to have it, or wear it down with Super Effective Shadow Ball if it has nothing else to do, as much as it doesn't do too much. That it also gets Perish Song to stop it from getting too far on things. I'd also say that Misdreavus also shuts down most of Slowking's synergetic clerics that are listed, such as against Chansey and Vileplume. 0 +1 Slowking Surf vs. 252/252+ Misdreavus: 66-78 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. +1 Slowking: 51-60 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery I suppose Absol's frail, but it still fares pretty good, and if necessary, can Taunt it, and debate it into either dying on the spot to Megahorn or switching out and dying due to Pursuit. Choice Band Absol Megahorn vs. 252/252+ Slowking: 188-222 (93 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO Choice Band Absol Pursuit on switch out vs. 252/252+ Slowking: 188-222 (93 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO 0 +1 Slowking Surf vs. 4/0 Absol: 122-144 (86.5 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO Taunt Hypno with Toxic also seems satisfactory. Stops it's recovery and boosts, healing with Wish if necessary, and taking it's hits comfortably. Umbreon can probably do the same thing but better, so I'll only calc Hypno. +1 Slowking Surf vs. 252/92+ Hypno: 61-72 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Depending on what move it has for coverage, doesn't Quagsire seem ideal for walling Surf/Flamethrower or Fire Blast variants? Not that it takes a boost Psychic comfortably, but you get the picture. Unlike other Water types that resist this combo, it can actually deal damage back but setting up Curse and hammering with Earthquake I suppose. It can Haze too, but I suppose that's not too relevant. I'm not really convinced it's banworthy, but I guess we'll see.

As you wish on that, then. If a Pokemon is so strong that the team has to centralize to incredibly and unhealthy significant means to counter it alone, that defines a Pokemon that is unhealthy for the metagame. Meanwhile, Gengar is being centralized to be used often due to Heracross and Snorlax instead of it centralizing stuff to be used, again acknowledging that Gengar would perhaps still be used as often without them. When you look at it, what Pokemon have been centralized to deal with Gengar? To my opinion, Gengar does not fall under that -- again, walling Gengar does not come out of a good team solely, but the intelligence and skill in know what switch in would be the less risky and most rewarding, something that isn't unacheiveable. As long as you still believe in the premise of "everything should be safe", I shall stop here, since this will not go anywhere, although it was nice in that we got to do this discussion civilly.

I'll first emphasize on the underlined and bolded statement and concur that I disagree with it entirely, if not bluntly professing how wrong such a statement is. The game isn't about safe switches isn't a pointless statement, it is a fact that's prominent in any offensive metagame where offense is at times, if not commonly, countered by it's own kin being offense itself. You cannot expect every Pokemon in the game to have a safe switch in, nor expect anything that doesn't have a safe switch in to be banned to the void simply because that's how a healthy metagame should be. Risk can be a healthy, if not an essential factor, especially in games such as this, that, usually revolve around skill and prediction, akin to how one would pick plays in a game of chess. The game shouldn't always rely on walls in response to offensive sweepers. Sure, that is the role of a wall, but you can't deny or say that it's wrong how an offensive approach is sometimes the more reliable way in beating offense. The way you speak of it, Marowak seems to fit that and should be Uber, since there aren't a lot, if any, effective walls for it. Yes, Gengar's typing is invaluable, it gives it a lot of switch ins and advantages, but I personally don't think it's indestructible. You don't prepare something specifically for Gengar -- a team composition usually has enough room to take the appropriate move depending on the most appropriate prediction. This isn't to insult your way of team building -- but rather your impossible demand of finding something that completely counters it and saying that it's unhealthy without it when that not necessarily defines a banning criteria.

TIme to get this into fact. Scizor can be offensive and defensive, although to my information the latter seems to have more popularity, although I suppose both sets have their relevance. Scizor has Swords Dance and Choice Band as offensive options, with stuff like Superpower, Reversal, Steel Wing, Pursuit, Return or Double-Edge, and Quick Attack. It's only STAB is Steel Wing, which despite high Attack, has a generally bad typing offensively. What can effectively deal with a Scizor with that given? Counter users usually are effective at catching this stuff off as much as it is a rare event that people actually use it. Examples include; 252+ +2 Scizor Superpower vs. 252/252+ Donphan: 96-113 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ +2 Scizor Superpower vs. 252/252+ Blastoise: 108-128 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery The sole point I'm making here is that you can take the hit and Counter it back for an OHKO, as much as they are vulnerable to 2HKOes and cannot reply sufficiently. There are a few other instances, say Hitmontop, and there's the possibility of it predicting a Counter and setting up another Swords Dance, but the former two have phazing moves to stop it from being too greedy. If it sets up a second Swords Dance predicting Counter, it can be phazed away, and if it decides to Attack, it is vulnerable to Counter. I find this a pretty effective tactic against most physical Attackers. A Bulky Scizor will also get stripped of it's boost because of Haze before it can attack if it isn't invested to outpace Blastoise. Heat Wave Crobat and Xatu are pretty notable picks for checking it, given it's x4 resistance to check to Scizor's most powerful move being Superpower, although it doesn't take it's other moves well. Xatu also isn't one of the Psychic types that Scizor that safely Pursuit trap or set up on because of it. 0 Crobat Heat Wave vs. 4/0 Scizor: 139-164 (95.8 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO 252 Crobat Heat Wave vs. 252/0 Scizor: 187-220 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO Xatu has superior Special Attack, hence why the calcs aren't included for it. Relating to this, here's another point I find worth mentioning. Steel as a dominant defensive typing in any tier does tempt most things to run a Fire or Ground move to cover said types. Some people can have their claims of it being effective to trap Psychic or Ghost types, or on more defensive sets think they can wall their entire sets since it isn't weak to any of those moves. The listed Pokemon in OP that have attempted to Earthquake it all have possibility of running a Fire move, which can, well, utterly roast the bug. In the case of Psychic types, despite the difficulty of HP breeding, do have their possibilities of running Hidden Power Fire. Scizor's Speed makes it vulnerable to a faster Pokemon that switches on it's Swords Dance carrying a Fire Attack, as much as you can ensure what set it's running, be it a Choice Band set, Swords Dance set, or a defensive set. I'm pretty sure no one should have offensive issues with a defensive set, though. Examples of Pokemon that can check it through a Fire move include Ninetales, the Nido duo (Nidoqueen and Nidoking), and in rarer cases Altaria, having a Fire move as options, and resisting one of it's common Attacks at the very least, albeit not all of them. Physical Attackers with their new distribution of elemental punches, or in Hitmonlee's case Blaze Kick, can also make for effective revenge killers, although they don't have the plus of having some move they can resist unlike the previously mentioned Pokemon. Scizor's Speed, despite having Agility, is also slow enough for it not to be as hard to revenge kill in comparison to other physical attackers. It's x4 weakness to Fire detracts from it's bulk alongside the unreliable PP for Morning Sun, and I speculatively believe that it is reliant more on it's bulk to function. A set that runs Agility generally lacks power, and getting off an Agility and Swords Dance isn't something that is a desirable mention in theory like this, since Scizor cannot reliably do that in the first place and at the same time loses coverage. A SubReversal set is a noteworthy, mention, however, although I have doubts over it's effectiveness in a tier with a fair bit of priority users. There are mentions such as Tentacruel, Mantine, and Slowking that do resist it's dual STAB, but their lower defense than most walls means that Double-Edge or even Return can still squish you. Slowking does have Flamethrower/Fire Blast, though, which also makes it a decent check. Going back to a defensive set, Scizor's a nice resist to Normal types and having recovery and all, but it's not an unbreakable tank, putting Iron Defense off the equation initially. Scizor can wall things provided that it does get off that Iron Defense, but it's not something you can throw out at the best physical attackers available. It also depends on how you Speed invest it, pretty much, since most of this stuff can be invested to outpace an uninvested Scizor, even despite their low Speed stats themselves. Scizor can invest it Speed, but lose a fair bit of physical bulk in the process. A tank Scizor is also more vulnerable to switch ins with Fire type attacks since unlike the Swords Dance or Choice Band set cannot effectively threaten those switch ins. 252+ Choice Band Donphan Earthquake vs. 252/252+ Scizor: 96-114 (54.2 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 + Choice Band Granbull Fire Punch vs. 252/252+ Scizor: 193-228 (109 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. 252/252+ Scizor: 115-136 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery I do express the fair amount of Fire Attacks in our tier as approaches to Scizor. The Swords Dance set is powerful, but depending on investment neglects either speed or bulk, which flaws it's effectiveness to sweep, in a nutshell. Defensive sets are more vulnerable to said Fire type users due to the fact that they have less trouble coming in due to the lack of offensive presence.

You're overreacting at my response. I would, but I'm on a phone. My apologies although it was the simplest I could do.

>Not assuming Fire Punch. >Thiefing a Shuckle instead of using Steel Wing. >Not calcing vs stuff like Donphan and Blastoise offensively. >Not calcing vs Choice Banders defensively.

Those situations are not expressible theoretically. It is entirely dependent on skill, which is an incalculable aspect in theory. The player using the Pokemon can predict well, and so can the player that is trying to deal with it. Both scenarios are entirely possible, but what justifies it should always be more advantageous and convenient for the former's case? I suppose the impact? One Swords Dance and the entire tier goes to ashes, regardless of what the issues of it setting up are? I guess this is what we should think about -- I'm still on the stance that there are things, listed given stuff like Hitmontop/Armaldo/Solrock blah blah blah can deal with it, whereas most might think that Zangoose's offense is too high. Even if it was, does it frequently and effortlessly or with little effort find an easy setup opportunity in a match before destroying everything? I wouldn't say Zangoose is..."fairly bulky", Nik. One weakness doesn't hit at it's bulk being good unless there are lot of resistances covering that. If you don't Haze it, you end up with a +2 Zangoose which will rekt you like you're saying. If you do Haze it, you stop that. Even if it's a Choice Bander and your wall just took a huge hit, you can switch in something that resists what the Choice-locked move is. Zangoose can double-switch out, which is an essential skill that I suppose a decent player has. That being said, a Choice Band Zangoose can't come in and out all of the time either on average, possible as it may in the hands of a player that knows how to predict. And this is a better scenario than letting it have a Swords Dance and start sweeping. Please don't compare Zangoose with Ursaring and Marowak, noting that I just mentioned a few minutes ago in response to Keith that their default power enables them to be that centralizing without setup, whereas Zangoose needs to set up to hit that, and it's Choice Band set isn't the most uncounterable thing in UU. I think that's all I should say. I personally don't have a firm decision, I'm just expressing my thoughts in accord to banworthy criteria. EDIT: To Keith; You're the one that's assuming the equal scenario here, so given that scenario Zangoose cannot successful Swords Dance against a Blastoise/Altaria, or anything with a phazing move. Responding with phazers after the +2 is ineffective.

Sigh. I think I don't want to proceed this with you. It doesn't need to, but the fact that it can't makes it's setup opportunities less effective and easy than other setup attackers. It's not some god that can easily go "alright, I'm in, I set up, then it's GG." That's what I'm trying to say. The whole "okay I'll come in after a kill or some predict in a switch scenario" is present in every match and is the scenario you're saying that Zangoose will set up on. Like I said before, anything can benefit from something that's asleep, does that mean it's a good idea to ban every Swords Dancer-, no, any reasonably powerful setup attacker in UU just because all of them can use this safest scenario you're bringing out, free of damage, setup, and wreck? And why only assume safe scenarios for the thing that's being countered and not the counters at all?Predicts happen in a match and you cannot assume that Zangoose always gets to pull it off just because it's convenient for your argument. Blastoise and Altaria with access to a phaze move don't let it get that Swords Dance up, which while doesn't get rid of Zangoose entirely, removes the possibility of it setting up aside from Taunt or something. All you're saying is "Zangoose always gets a safe switch, sets up, and destroys everything!!" This is completely false. It does not always get a safe switch, and the switch ins are, personally, not to the point where which it sets up too easily, either.

You're not very good at wordplay. A good set up Pokemon is a Pokemon that can switch in, which is important, and set up on things even after that switch in. Is Zangoose the only one that can make the double switch? Why can't I just predict your Zangoose coming in and respond with some Fighting or Rock type before it even gets that +2? Even if they do enter the battle at the same time, why are you assuming that particularly Blastoise, Altaria, and some others that have means of crippling it are going to attack it? I suppose you're going to assume Lum Berry, but Lum Berry doesn't stop phazing. Let's not create impossible scenarios for the counters as well, then, alright?

Um...what? So Zangoose can afford to come in and take one Attack, set up a Swords Dance with no risk, and OHKO them? It doesn't fear Roar, Haze, status, or anything in between? Touche on Umbreon, I guess. If your factor Taunt or Sub into this, you will have one missing coverage move. You're listing scenarios that most of every setup Pokemon can benefit from apart from some Psychic type on Pursuit. That being "a predicted switch in on Rest", which anything can benefit from, pretty much. Setup is possible, but is it reliably done by Zangoose in order to sweep? I personally don't think so, undeniable as the power after that is borderline unhealthy. EDIT: ....Altaria has Roar or Haze, and Zangoose can't switch on a random Dragon Dance Altaria.

The entire discussion in this thread and why it's so OP was centralized around it's Swords Dance set to begin with. It's only the only set you put in the OP for justification. Zangoose's Choice Band set is personally inferior to it's Swords Dance one, noting that Choice Band Zangoose also needs to predict instead of responding with whatever move is appropriate sometimes, making it even more vulnerable to checking. Doing some calcs, it does 2HKO most walls, but again, we do have a list of things that check even the Swords Dance set anyway. You also don't get two consecutive hits on the average player that knows how to respond to a Choice-locked move. If it is a Choice Band Zangoose, you cannot whine about it being banworthy, given the above reasons. The Choice Band set also does not deal with anything that can wall the Swords Dance set. Swords Dance is probably a different story, since you pick up the dance and "destroy things." The difference between Marowak and Zangoose is that Marowak can have almost as much Attack as a Choice Band Zangoose but with the ability to swap moves, get it even higher, and debatably even has better coverage. Marowak destroys things without needing that SD, whereas Zangoose is probably easier to check than Marowak even if it runs Choice Band, while you need to spend a turn to set up to actually reach that unwallable potential. I personally don't really mind if it stays or goes. By the way, you've yet to answer my question on what it can set up on, because if there's not a lot of things it can do so to begin with, then, well...you get the picture.

Going over offensive pressure with offensive pressure is not necessarily a bad thing. I daresay that Zangoose's really threatening set always involves Swords Dance, be it a sheer all out attacking set or a Flail set. Even without that approach, there are things that can live a hit at +2 and reply with a killing blow, and a fair bit of things that wall what it commonly runs entirely, such as Hitmontop and Donphan or the former, or Solrock/Armaldo on the latter, unless you're going to put Iron Tail into the equation. As much as stuff like Blastoise are 2HKOed and can't do stuff back, there is this one lovely little tool called Counter that catches these physical Attackers off guard. Isn't this how it goes with the effectiveness of the bulky Grass types being effective checks to stuff like Kingler and Crawdaunt even if they get shrekt in two hits anyways? I suppose since they get recovery and Giga Drain, it's a different story. Also, what can Zangoose come in, threaten out, and set up a Swords Dance on? I suppose there are such things, but are they common enough to merit the ease of Zangoose setting up? Can it set up multiple times in a match, even? I suppose it'd involve mono-Toxic walls or something.

The example about ORAS than Londar was trying to make was how metagames that are far more offensive in comparison to ours still keep things that are "unwallable." This has been a thing throughout most of future generations when offense was buffed massively where tons of really powerful things still roamed free in their tiers despite fitting the whole "nothing can wall it" criteria. That being said, what really prohibits us from taking said approach? I'm trying to change your mindset on what you really should see as a defining "Uber". Given that you've said that you've always been convinced that anything "unwallable", fits that criteria. Rhydon isn't necessarily walled by SubDisable Gengar depending on whether or not it uses Rock Blast, although I suppose no one uses it, nor does Slowbro really appreciate getting hit by two Choice Band Megahorns to the head. Even if these things do actually take a hit, they don't take it as well as a legitimate counter would. In fact, nothing really does. You're kinda picking at counters here since I can refer to the fact that Charizard's SunnyBeam set shrekts those two Waters and the fact that Marowak now gets either Fire or ThunderPunch to hit Skarm reliably with. Either way, all this isn't really relevant, given that the approach that you're trying to portray with Gengar, by definition, isn't really "unwallable" to begin with. Gengar isn't a nuclear bomb like the Dragons are. It's just got some many options you don't know what it's going to do without potentially putting yourself in this "tremendous risk". Yes, Gengar isn't specific to one role, but does Gengar do everything in one set at the same time? I guess Will-O-Wisp/Taunt and dual STAB itself sounds pretty brutal, but this is kinda easily taken out by an aggressive Blissey and Gengar has to take risks when it comes into a Snorlax especially if it's Choice Banded or carries something like Whirlwind. I'm not one to judge plays, but under the assumption your Snorlax has Rest, staying in even if you were burned would may have possibly been the better move, since you can kinda get how a Gengar set is as you gradually pick up the moves. Against Gengar, you kinda need to know what will bring the least risk, which is a pretty important factor in deciding anything, even against a simple Choice Bander. I'm sorry to be blunt with you, but infavourable situations against Gengar, is, portrayable to some degree, a result of an error of judgement. Pokemon, especially in more offensive tiers, are heavily reliant on judgement and good plays, which are relevant on both spectrums. This is a test of a player's skill, and is this versatile tool that forces you to think something that should be abolished since there should be no risk? There's a difference between," I know what he's gonna do, but he can still shrekt me"(in the case of the Dragons) and "I don't know what he has yet, so I should be careful if I don't wanna get shrekt". If you're one to twist your head fast, think about what would benefit the team built around Gengar to think of it's possible moves. Not a lot boast to wall everything it gets to shove out, but Gengar can't hide all of it's moves forever, nor can it single-handedly dominate an entire enemy team usually. Go against it's utility with an offensive approach and if available have a Special tank balance between both offense and utility. It's kind of like cracking the hard shell of a nut with your hands instead of expecting a non-existent nutcracker to come to your aid. Gengar only cripples walls with it's own utility, and variants that don't have Taunt are debatably easier to respond with. I suppose Taunt is now mandatory or top common on Gengar now? Gengar is not, and never, an immediate death sentence to walls. I suppose excluding Perish Song, but Gengar doesn't necessarily always get to kill your Special wall, even if it gets the free turn of it responding to it, an issue more notable against say Snorlax. Gengar has the versatility but not the power to single handedly eliminate them reliably. I don't see how the game necessarily immediately ends just because one is taking the natural, although in Gengar's case more risky, gamble of judgement that is inevitable and existent in any game. This shouldn't derail to Linoone. We shouldn't talk about the influences after it's banning when there's not even a clear definition on why it should be banned in the first place. The most obvious bans if you want to take that route would go to Snorlax and Heracross having lost a common and significant check, which would flip the OU meta into something new.

I'm surprised this mentality still sticks, as Londar said. The fact that something cannot be walled in it's entirety does not necessarily define it an Uber unless it has the Speed and other necessary kit tools to complement it. You see stuff like Marowak, Charizard and Rhydon, with their sheer damage that destroys practically the entire metagame, but each have their notable flaws that hinder them from being entirely successful in sweeping despite their seemingly tremendous power. Secondly, I wouldn't tackle Gengar for being "virtually unwallable", even if is still in practice, an Uber. Being un-wallable is different from being "being incredibly versatile." It's comparing a Pokemon that takes only one or two sets to achieve that boundary, say Choice Band Dragons Salamence and Dragonite, and something that can run tons of sets to achieve that, in this case being Gengar. You know what Salamence and Dragonite are gonna do but still can't stop them effectively, whereas Gengar relies on it's notorious mind-flipping versatility that gives pressure on opponents. Nothing virtually beats any Gengar set, but can a Gengar run all sets at once to deal with everything that deals with one specific set or move in between? This is the known rule called 4MSS, although I suppose instead of not having a spare slot for all moves, Gengar's sets form very different functions and thus makes it very unpredictable, instead of the whole "oh, does he have Hidden Power Fire or Ice on this thing, etc." I used to be entirely be opposed of 4MSS respecting all possibilities, but as the meta changes, so does my own opinion. One of the two prime threats of the metagame as of current that the council have not given really appropriate answers to as of yet are Heracross and Snorlax, two Pokemon of which Gengar can effectively check better so than most others. It is thus not very surprising that Gengar is one of the prime picks for an effective team composition given how the ability to check these two things is invaluable alongside the rest of the positives. This isn't to say that Gengar wouldn't be used as much even without these two, but this is but my own honest speculation, in that these two do pose a significant role in why Gengar is such a common sight near and far. "Scout for it's set" is probably an answer some people may give. I understand your opinion in that doing so costs you an arm and a leg and in that it's unhealthy, Nik. Inevitably, that can be the case, but when it look at it again, I suppose it's safe to say that once you -do- figure out it's set, you'll find that you can have a few things in your team that can deal with it specifically. I thusly find the whole "by the time you know it's set, one or two Pokemon are probably already dead" thing a mild exaggeration. Look again at the sets you've been giving -- noting that apart from your emphasis regarding Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball and their side effects, most of your sets centralize themselves around utility. Utility that screws up a Choice Bander or Pokemon that have only one reliable move to hit it with. Trapping. Burns. Disabling opposing utility with Taunt. That being said, most of what you've listed from it comes from it's utility rather than offense, which contradicts the whole "it is unwallable" thing to begin with. Utility also isn't an immediate death sentence unless it's Perish Song. Without this utility, would a sheerly offensive Gengar with stuff like Sub + 3 Attacks or a full all-out attacker be problematic? Well, maybe. Are there things in our metagame that can handle Gengar's offensives but fall to it's utility, and vice versa? Yes. Does Gengar have room for all this and deal with -everything- as if it can go beyond the 4 move boundary with a phantom magic trick? No. Does Gengar possess one specific set in the current metagame that clears all of what Gengar fears flawlessly? I think not. If there were one, you would've named one on the spot. In fact, all of Gengar's sets are ones to be watched out for, but it is because it can run all of these sets that people need to be careful. None of Gengar's sets particularly stand out individually being as godlike as a Choice Band Dragon, but people have grown to be, with respectable but slightly incomprehensible reasons, scared of it's versatility that risks aren't things people are willing to take anymore. This was also not really an approach that the council was taking or are taking now. "Oh, for the sake of reducing risks, something has to go." Look at ThinkNice's thread about the UU direction, I think his words apply to all metas. This makes it less comparable to even stuff like Heracross and Snorlax that, with primarily one set, causes severe problems and has effective solutions in some terms. Just my two cents, I know my words may be completely wrong here.