Senile

It is nowhere near being a surefire for Ferrothorn. It doesn't get rid of it's hazards, takes a hefty amount from Gyro Ball, and doesn't even do that much damage back: (by the way, it's worth mentioning we'll have 60 BP HP after the update) 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 130-156 (71.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Venusaur: 93-111 (60 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Naturally, Gyro Ball will do a lot less to a more defensive Venusaur, but even a fully defensive Venusaur takes a decent amount, on top of any hazard damage: 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (113 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 51-60 (27.2 - 32%) -- 46.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 SpA Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 72-88 (39.7 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Sand and Rain likely running around everywhere also means that Synthesis, his best healing option other than Giga Drain, will be pretty much garbage. Stall Chansey + Blissey isn't really noteworthy, since Reuniclus is a way better anti-Blissey + Chansey pokemon and stallbreaker than Venusaur ever could be. It's a good Breloom switchin, but that's about it. As for Scizor, there really isn't a lack of faster fire type using pokemon to check it, so I hardly think that's a relevant point. These damage calcs aren't even accounting for the fact that Venu really doesn't want to get whacked by Twave, which is a relatively common Ferrothorn move. Tbh Venusaur is largely outclassed by Roserade in OU/UU, and Roserade doesn't even really have a niche in OU. Venusaur very much does pretty much nothing in OU.

Pretty sure we're getting most Gen 7 ability additions, for the same reason we got the Gen 7 stat changes. The only exception is, I think, Cursed Body Gengar, because it's a dumb nerf. Also, weather isn't really op as fuck, kek.

Pelipper is getting Drizzle, and Torkoal is getting Drought. Politoed & Ninetales get their weather abilities as hidden abilities, so they won't have them.

pretty much. The idea is to have nothing in the initial banlist.

i mean, that's neat and all, but it doesn't change that much. Flamethrower is definitely viable, but if it's running Flamethrower, then that means it isn't running, say, Psyshock/Psychic/Toxic/Twave, since Slack Off is necessary, Ice Beam is necessary if you want effectively check Dragons, and Scald is Scald. With that being said, yeah, you're right, Ferrothorn isn't really a reliable switchin on Slowbro because of that, that was my bad.

I think Bronzong is alright, wouldn't be surprised if it ends up OU, but it's pretty iffy. Pretty much every Regenerator pokemon you listed (Alomomola, Amoonguss, Slowbro, Tangrowth) simply cannot succeed in OU without it. I understand your reasoning; There aren't enough defensive pokemon in OU, so people need to run SOMETHING to make a defensive team. With that being said, I don't think the conclusion there is "We need more defensive pokemon in OU", I think the problem is just that the defensive options in OU are really, really bad. Pretty much all of them are massive momentum drains without Regenerator, and in terms of pure defensive bulk, they're all pretty mediocre too. Amoonguss doesn't wall that much, with the most notable thing it can wall being Breloom, but that's about it. It doesn't quite have the bulk & resistances to take on the current Rain Abusers, and gets outright stomped by Pelipper whereas before it had a great matchup vs Politoed, and a perfect typing for answering Keldeo or Thundurus. Especially bad since Synthesis and Giga Drain being it's only healing options in a metagame likely to be crawling with either Sandstorm or Rain means that a good amount of the time, Amoonguss basically won't be able to heal. Throw in a vulnerability to every hazard bar TSpikes, and it really doesn't do anything. Alomomola wouldn't be OU even with Regenerator, IMO. An important thing to keep in mind is AFAIK we won't have updated Wish mechanics, where the HP based is 50% of the passer, not the recipient, so no matter how high the user of Wish's HP, the pass heals the same amount. Not only does this make Wish support worse, it make Alomomola significantly worse, because of how much it relies on Wish to be relevant. Without Regenerator, Alomomola really can't DO anything. With it, it can come in, tank a hit, wish and then switch out into something that needs it without having to worry about it's own HP, since it'll heal itself automatically. This means that it can Wishpass really reliably, along with the massive HP wishes. Not only will it's Wishes no longer be so impressive, but without Regenerator, it won't even be able to pass anywhere near as reliably. Tangrowth, again, largely relies on Regenerator to be usable. It suffers the same problem as Amoonguss; Not too many resistances means it doesn't actually answer too many things, and it's options for recovery without Regenerator are kind of awful. Susceptible to being chipped, etc.; If any Tangrowth ends up being viable, I don't anticipate it being a defensive one, but a more offensive one. Slowbro is different from the other ones, in that it actually has Slack Off for recovery. With that being said, again, without Regenerator, it's too easy to chip down. With it, it's a pretty decent Dragon type check, and can consistently come in on certain fighting types. However, we don't have Terrakion or Keldeo for it to answer, and ultimately, that's all it can do to dragons. Check them. It isn't really a counter. The worst thing about all of these pokemon is that they're massive Ferrothorn bait. Every last one of them except HP Fire Tangrowth pretty much let Ferrothorn in to setup hazards for free, and without Regenerator, they're all actually very vulnerable to Spikes/Rocks. Regenerator is incredibly important to their viability, and even with it, none of these pokemon ended up in OU in Gen 5. Ultimately, I think the problem is that Stall is really bad in Gen 5 OU, and it's probably going to be even worse in PokeMMO. I agree on Mienshao, and I don't really know why nobody has talked about it.

Don't really agree on Misdreavus. It's definitely a top tier, S-rank threat in LC, but without Dazzling Gleam and the Steel nerfs, it's nowhere near as overwhelming as it was in Gen 6. There's a good reason it got banned in Gen 6+, but not Gen 5. It's definitely one of those pokemon on the borderline, and probably going to be the first pokemon looked at, but IMO it's not on the level of the other banned pokemon, where it deserves to be autobanned. I'd agree with Murkrow if it had Prankster, since that pushes it way over the top for me. But without it, I definitely think it's worth testing, and don't expect it to be too bad. Nope, not at all. Baton Pass got unbanned in LC because, quite frankly, there's much less room to exploit in LC, so we thought it was worth giving a shot. With that being said, don't get your hopes up about BP. Honestly, I wouldn't expect it to ever be allowed in the standard tiers again in any capacity. Baton Pass is just a consistently, terribly obnoxious threat all around. If anything, I think it'll become significantly more unmanageable now than it was when it got permabanned, since there are significantly more options (and better options) for solo-passers in the new metagame. Naturally, I don't speak for the whole TC. With that being said, after the total clown fiesta that was the Gen 6/7 BP Clauses, I'm pretty heavily opposed to clausing BP at all; It's better off just staying flat banned.

The initial Little Cup Banlist has been added to the OP of the thread.

I'll have you know Gen 1 Comp is at least marginally worse than Gen 5.

It's in Gen 5, don't see any reason why we wouldn't. AFAIK we're getting most (if not all?) future gen hold items, such as the gems, sash, rocky helmet, eviolite, etc.; I don't really have any specific confirmation on all of them, but I haven't been led to believe any are being excluded. They should be, and the list was made with that assumption in mind.

Here you go: Mold Breaker is his hidden ability.

Okay, I don't get it. How is Mold Breaker Excadrill any better at wallbreaking than Sand Rush? The only OU pokemon affected by Mold Breaker are Gengar, Forretress, and Skarmory. Gengar is demolished by Iron Head anyway, and outsped by Exca in sandstorm w/ Rush anyway. Forretress and Skarmory only matter if they're at full HP with Sturdy, which might not even happen, because of SR. Even then, Forretress is a terrible Excadrill answer, and if your Skarmory is getting 100-0'd by Excadrill, you have bigger problems than Mold Breaker on your hands m8.

Toxic Spikes are very niche, they're pretty much exclusively used on hazard stacking teams, because other hazards are generally better in most situations; There's a lot of pokemon who either don't care too much about TSpikes, or are outright immune. Tentacruel can spin pretty reliably, which is definitely it's best feature, but to do so it needs to run Toxic in order to spin against stuff like Jellicent, which really narrows it's viable moveset, making it far more predictable (Toxic + Rapid Spin + Scald are all basically mandatory), and if you forgo those options, it might be less predictable, but it can also be answered much, MUCH more easily. Ultimately, Tenta's biggest problem is the lack of perma-rain. In gen 5, Drizzle + Black Sludge + Rain Dish was giving it 12.5% healing every turn. This meant it was a pretty good spinner, because although it's vulnerable to Spikes & Rocks, the massive passive regen meant that it wasn't easy to chip away with passive damage, in addition to giving it much more longevity. In PokeMMO, it won't even have Rain Dish, and even if it did, it'd be hard pressed to exploit it. It has no real, reliable recovery, so it is way too easy to chip down and kill, taking damage from Sandstorm, Hazards, and anything that hits it when it switches in. The final nail in the coffin is that even though it can spin against most spinblockers, it actually can't safely switch into any of the best hazard setters. Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Mamoswine, Excadrill, and more all threaten to do massive damage to Tentacruel if it even tries to come in, and even when it's in, it doesn't necessarily even beat most of them depending on the sets. It's not awful, but IMO it's only likely to get 1, maybe 2 spins out per game if done well, before succumbing to chip. I'd say Starmie or Excadrill are generally better spinners.

Porygon2 is a really good UU wall. I don't think anyone disagreed with that. Are you saying it's too good and should be BL? Don't really know what you're implying there. Disagree with PZ being "Viable in a lot of situations", at least in OU. If you're talking about UU, that's different, but again, we're not talking about UU. Yes, Poison Heal IS what makes Gliscor strong. I'd love for you to prove me wrong, but based on the composition of your post, that seems unlikely. So I'm sure you felt so fucking clever and smart when you made your fancy little image of "haHAA weaknesses", but quite frankly, it's not clever, and it's not smart. I don't know if you've actually played gen 5, but I have, and it is very fucking easy to refute your point, so I'm going to go ahead and do just that. So, if we look at SPL Gen 5 Usage, and the Gen 5 BW Viability rankings, you'll notice that Donphan is conspicuously absent from both of them. Do you know why that is? I'll give you a hint, it's not because people forgot about it, it's because a bit after the end of BW OU ended and XY came along, they decided to unban Excadrill, and ban Sand Rush + Sand Stream instead. Do you know why? Because in Gen 5 OU, Rapid Spinning was the only way to get rid of hazards, and after the removal of Excadrill, the only decent spinners left were Starmie and Tentacruel. Because of this, people started running garbage like Donphan to fill the void, but even then, it was a niche, obscure pick. Of course, the instant Excadrill was added back to OU, Donphan disappeared from OU completely, as if it never existed at all. The fact of the matter is, Donphan has no place in OU with Excadrill around. You can go on and on about how they're pretty different, how Donphan isn't weak to fighting or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, the only reason to use Donphan in OU is to Rapid Spin. There are better Stealth Rockers, there are better physical tanks, and there are for fucking sure better ground types. And, as a Rapid Spinner, Donphan is painfully mediocre, and INCREDIBLY outclassed by Excadrill. But yeah, please, tell me more about how Donphan isn't worse than Excadrill as a spinner. Maybe you've got the missing puzzle piece nobody else seems to have.

Well, technically, there's Moxie Scrafty. With that being said, IMO you kind of said it yourself. It's a pretty decent lategame scarfer, but in OU especially, that isn't really good enough. There are other, far better Dark types competing for a team slot, it's still outsped by a good amount of other Scarfers along with Swift Swim, Sand Rush and Chlorophyll, and priority makes short work of it even when it's not weakened. IMO Krookodile is very much a victim of being a decent pokemon in a metagame that's largely hostile to it. That's because it's not OU.

No, Water Absorb and Scald isn't enough, since it dies to your average rain sweeper, and it's still a very much "Do nothing" pokemon. I don't consider Trick Room highly viable in Singles, and especially not OU. It can certainly work as a gimmick every now and then, but if it's not doubles, Trick Room just doesn't last long enough to be a consistently dangerous threat if you're running the TR Setup Mon + Abusers. IMO Trick Room's best niche in OU is on a Trick Room Sweeper Reuniclus, who can setup Trick Room for itself and then run through offense teams. Yes, I am aware of Sand Veil. It was banned in Gen 5 for good reason. If people actually start running stupid shit like Sandstorm + Sand Veil spam, I expect Sand Veil to get banned a lot faster than Gliscor becomes top tier OU. Plus, we don't have Sand Veil Garchomp, the pokemon that Gliscor is trying to run support for. I don't know what you hope to get by posting screenshots of Smogon analysises at me, as if I am incapable of reading. I don't know if you read that analysis at all, but you'll noticce that the "key threats" it comes in on, Keldeo and Thundurus-T, don't exist in PokeMMO. Sure, it can still come in on a revenge on Starmie, but that's not exactly saying a lot. In fact, if you notice, there's a significant lack of Volt Switch or electric moves in general in OU; No Thundies, no Rotom, and Magnezone isn't really all that scared of Jolteon anyway. I mean, I know why people don't like Wobbu, but of all the trappers, imo it's actually probably one of the least banworthy. I can't really think of any super degenerate, OP teams that were enabled by Wobbuffet of all things in gen 5+, whereas if you asked me about Gothitelle or Dugtrio, I'd be able to list a handful. IMO, of the trappers, Dugtrio is probably more banworthy than Wobbuffet. With that being said, of the two, I understand the hatred for Wobbuffet; It's a lot more obnoxious, even if it's nowhere near as good. I don't disagree with your point about it being low usage. With that being said, if it doesn't get OU usage, I very much doubt it'll be allowed to drop to UU, so it is for all intents and purposes OU. I don't disagree with you on Porygon2, I've seen it used pretty decently in gen 5+ every now and then, even though it's very uncommon. I definitely think it's "viable enough" for OU, I just think that it's niche enough that I don't expect it to get enough usage for OU. I honestly think it's a tossup where it ends up, and it could easily end up being one of those pokemon that fluctuates between UU and OU. Hard disagree on Porygon-Z. Maybe I came off as harsher than I intended; Obviously, Porygon-Z isn't complete garbage. With that being said, IMO, it is very much completely non-viable in the context of OU, as far as I'm concerned. I'd argue that Jolteon's late game sweeping, while good, isn't amazing, and I don't expect it to get used enough to be OU. There's options for taking care of it other than Chansey or Blissey, which you shouldn't expect on every team anyway, since they're basically only on the hardest of stall teams. Jolteon still suffers vs Tyranitar, Excadrill, Mamoswine and Ferrothorn, and you've also ignored the fact that Focus Sash Dugtrio KOs and traps Jolteon regardless of HP Ice, which is actually a big deal. There's also the problem of what you run; The specs set hits hard, but is incredibly easy to revenge, or even just predict and get a good switchin on with how predictable it is, not to mention that it gets revenged by Dugtrio so easily it's depressing. Volt Switch helps this, but it's not perfect. The Life Orb set dies to itself, between being vulnerable to every hazard, not being able to switch in on many moves other than an Electric attack, and other random chip like Sandstorm. Also, it can't run stuff like Sub+BP anymore, which is really unfortunate in terms of making it more unpredictable and difficult to deal with. On top of that, even though it's fast, it's still slower than most relevant scarfers, and between the inevitable chip damage + LO, it can very easily be disposed of by priority from Conkel/Breloom/Lucario/Dragonite/You get the idea. Honestly, I don't think Jolteon has 0 viability in OU, but I really don't think it's necessarily OU worthy, and your short blurb is massively downplaying it's flaws IMO.

Wobbuffet has been banned in PokeMMO literally forever, and isn't Uber in gen 5. It's worth testing. Vaporeon kind of does nothing, it's only role is a Cleric. Toxicroak won't be out AFAIK. Porygon2 isn't bad, but it's not really OU worthy. It might end up OU by usage, but it's a pokemon that only has a niche at all in hard stall teams. Porygon Z is garbage. Gliscor won't have Poison Heal, so it's not anywhere close to OU. Bisharp lacks a good, reliable STAB without Knock Off or the steel nerf. Weavile is just a painfully average fast, lategame cleaner, and not really anything else. Better options. Donphan is garbage, run Excadrill if you want Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock. The only reason it was OU in gen 5 is because Excadrill was banned for the longest time, and even then, it was a pretty weird option. I hope you don't expect Jolteon to be OU, kek.

So, as some of you may (or may not) know, the upcoming update will completely change the tiers as we know them. Normally, we would wait and take usage to update the tiers accordingly, however, the Tier Council has been tasked with the job of making hypothetical tiers beforehand, to serve as temporary placeholders until we get settled, official tiers from usage stats later on. Early OU, UU, and NU lists were posted in another Competition Alley thread a while back, however, those revisions are pretty inaccurate to the current versions. At the moment, the OU list is mostly done and settled on, while the UU list is much more up to debate. The purpose of this thread is for the community to look at the proposed temporary tiers, and point out any obvious errors, or just placings people disagree with. Before posting the list, it'll probably be helpful to discuss how the list itself was compiled. It's divided into two parts; The "OU" part are effectively pokemon that are very likely to: Be decently viable in the OU metagame post update. Are likely to make the OU cutoff. This distinction is important, because there are several pokemon, (see: Snorlax), that are not on the OU list, but might end up being OU early on anyway. Why? Because PokeMMO players are likely to use those pokemon in OU regardless of how viable they may or may not be in the metagame post update, simply because they were banned before, or they already have those pokemon bred and ready. The list is built with this in mind; Although it's totally possible for Flygon or Snorlax to end up OU by usage early on, we do not expect them to stay that way for long, assuming it does happen, due to them likely not having the viability to keep their usage high. Then, there are the "BL" pokemon. We tried to keep the "BL" list as tiny as possible, being pretty much exclusive to pokemon we feel aren't up to par with OU, but likely to be incredibly overwhelming in UU, to the point where actually publicly testing them is unnecessary. With that being said, here is the list: OU BL The UU list is TBA. Additionally, a few last notes to keep in mind when discussing these lists; The TC doesn't 100% know what's going to be in the update either, with that being said, these lists were made with a few assumptions in mind that have been discussed on the forums before. For anyone who hasn't been paying attention to all the posts on the forums about the update, here is a very brief list of important assumptions that this list was made under: . Do not expect Hidden Abilities. Do not expect custom TMs or HMs or such. (Think Defog) Do not expect Legendary pokemon. Do not expect Sinnoh pokemon not available in Unova. (ie Garchomp isn't on the list because Garchomp isn't going to be out) Also, keep in mind these assumptions are for pretty soon after the update. Obviously, eventually stuff like Sinnoh and it's pokemon and Legendary Dungeons will be added, but for the purposes of these proposed tier lists, those are too far in the future to be relevant. Discuss. Edit: Here's the Little Cup banlist: LC: Edit 2: Here's the UU list: UU: Subject to change.

Roserade is 4th gen, and goes to bed wishing it was half as cool as Ferrothorn. Besides, that thing isn't viable in OU, and everyone knows that the REAL men tiers are OU, Little Cup, and original PokeMMO NU.

Okay, this is the breaking point. This is absurd. I can't even believe what I'm reading. You're suggesting that if they were more capable, they would have had the foresight to create Halloween vanity items almost a year in advance, knowing that they would be busy with Unova at the time? I don't even think they were working on Unova at the time they made the last Christmas event, and even if they were, why the fuck would they prepare vanity items that far in advance when the game has a history of reworking vanity items with new updates? Doing something like that would almost definitely end up being largely wasted effort. And guess what? The Unova update makes it pretty clear this is true. What you're saying is the opposite of good time management; Making vanities that far in advance is a fucking terrible idea. I don't even understand why you're still talking about these Halloween vanities. You're so dismissive of any reasoning as to why it hasn't been done (all of which are pretty fucking reasonable), and dismiss the reasoning as to why it can't be done easily as excuses, and that they should just "Push back the update". You fucking replied to a post explaining why it can't be done, and why the vanities weren't done in advance, but it seems you have very poor memory, so let me quote it again: Now, with the points I have made, is this a sufficient enough answer for you? Is this "Excuse" acceptable to you? What is wrong with you people? And I'm not directing this at you, "Redspawn", I'm directing this at literally everyone asking for a Halloween event at the expense of the update. If the premise of the situation is that they can't really pump out the event, then LOGICALLY, you can INFER there's something keeping them from doing so. It's almost like it's been almost a full year since the last update on the public server, and the difference between the public client and the developer client is so different, that going back and adding stuff to an older revision to push out a tiny event on the public server would be waaay more trouble than it's worth, and they're obviously not yet satisfied with their current work enough to just push out what they have with an event attached, based on the fact that they haven't put out the update. Why do you guys have to nitpick everything? Is it not enough to be told "No, we can't really do it", have the reasons why more or less spelled out to you in a way that could only be simpler to follow if they had a flowchart, and have the reasoning why it isn't worth trying to go through all the effort to do it anyway? You guys seem to love asking for more communication from the devs, more frequent explanations of what's happening and why, but whenever they do, INVARIABLY, these expert Junior Game Developers come out of the woodwork, with no knowledge of how the game actually works or anything regarding the development of PokeMMO, or any MMO, and nitpick every fucking tiny detail the SGMs and Devs spill out onto the forum the second they think they might maybe not like what they're saying, and propose their own "Genius, 0 work" solutions to the problems they can't begin to have a real understanding of. Why would they want to deal with that? I don't even want to read half the garbage people are spewing onto here, and it isn't even my problem. If I was actually a developer and read half the garbage posted on threads like these on a frequent basis, I wouldn't want to crawl out of Staff Lounge either, because it'd be significantly better for my mental health. So, here's a question for you guys: How about, instead of trying to come up with Captain Hindsight-esque answers to how they should totally manage to pump out a Halloween event, you guys actually provide a reason they should? Because, as far as I can tell, the only reasoning I can ascertain as to why people want this event to happen is because...There was an event last year? They want their fucking Jack-O-Lantern hat? Other MMOs have holiday events? It's Halloween, not the second coming of Jesus, they don't need holiday events for the game to exist. Just because other MMOs do it doesn't mean PokeMMO will fucking implode if they skip it one year, or even just never fucking do them at all. All the reasoning for why the Halloween event should happen is so inane it's painful, and none of the people begging for it actually accept any of the answers as to why it can't/won't happen, so why would the developers even fucking bother communicating the reasons? If "No because fuck you" is just as effective at getting people to understand as "No, here's why", why bother with the one that takes effort? It's so easy to say "Just delay the update for a week, spend a week working on the Halloween event!", when you don't think of the developers as human beings whose time is a finite resource, and instead think of updates as things that just happen after an arbitrary amount of time passes, with an invisible counter nobody sees counting down until it reaches 0 and it's pushed to live. But no, the developers are people who actually have to take time out of there day to work on these updates, and I very much doubt they want to take a fucking week of time or however long to push back the thing they've been working on for 9 months to go back and rehash a basic Halloween event with 3 new hats. So, sure, if you're just looking at things as a product of time, it might seem like a good deal. But I don't know about you, if I were them, I wouldn't want to waste my time on that garbage; Because there are significantly more important things to do, that are actually relevant, instead of just convoluted ways of putting out a spooky skeletman costume. Anyway, 5th gen is alright I guess. I really like Excadrill.

[Triggered] So, to start off, yes, I can't speak for the person you were responding to, I do disagree with the notion of Runescape's limited holiday items. And so did the Runescape developers. That's why all the holiday items past 2001 and 2002 are untradeable, because the absurd values they reach as a result of nothing more than rarity, as the supply never increases, but demand also increases, is silly. Having one time tradeable holiday vanity items doesn't encourage actually wearing or using the items, it encourages massive hoarding and attempts to manipulate the price in order to get massive profits. It turns what are supposed to be fun, festive decorative items into nothing more than bricks of cash for merchers to make bank off of, or people with too much money to flash their bank everywhere. Yeah, the early Runescape holiday items are iconic for their high price/rarity, but there's a big difference between a mistake made by one of the earliest F2P MMOs which has had an absurd amount of players at least try the game, and some Ha-llo-ween items for PokeMMO. There is a blatant false equivalence here; They just can't be compared. The reason those items are iconic isn't JUST that they're one time holiday rares, it's a confluence of how early they were in Runescape (and by extension how few people were around to get them), how long Runescape has survived, how massive Runescape was, and how significant it was to the childhood of tons of children. Just because some holiday rarities became iconic in Runescape, doesn't mean that practice is good at all for the game; Runescape itself realized that, even they're the game which has these incredibly iconic rares. If you look at the Oldschool RS server, they decided to release those same seasonal holiday items in the game en masse, but decided to not to make them untradeable. Instead, they just rerelease those items every year during their respective holiday. Why? Because the items themselves are iconic, so they wanted to add them in the game, but they did not want to encourage them being hoarded and merched for massive profit over a long period of time. There's a very good reason Runescape bans and tries to restrict price manipulation; Stuff like hoarding seasonals isn't actually beneficial to the game, and encourages gameplay which is, imo, pretty shitty. Unless you're banking on your holiday items becoming super iconic, legendary items players will aspire to work up to. But we already have super rare shinies as iconic items players can work up towards, and unless some craziness happens or PokeMMO continues for another 2 decades, a Halloween scythe is never going to come close to those. So why bother?

because the sovereign overlords demanded it. If you're concerned about them staying that way, they'll go back to usage when there is usage to use.

You forgot Swanna & Archeops.

From the (lot) of LC I played in XY, I can say this is a pretty big misunderstanding of how Eviolite actually effects LC. I'm not going to speak on Berry Juice, because that's something completely different, and something that could actually be decently argued to be banned in LC depending on what the meta looks like. So, first of all, Eviolite is not run on every pokemon. However, it is run on (almost) every defensive pokemon. With that being said, that does not mean it "over centralizes team building", unless you're also positing that Leftovers over centralizes regular tiers with it being ubiquitous on defensive pokemon, which, in case it isn't obvious, I heavily disagree with. 90% of defensive pokemon running Eviolite in LC isn't because it's broken, it's because it is far and away the best option for them, much like Leftovers on most defensive pokemon. Why is that the case? Well, the most obvious reason is that Leftovers in LC is straight up complete garbage, to the point where even if Eviolite was banned, Leftovers still would see 0 serious use in the tier. If anything, they would switch to Berry Juice, an item that some defensive pokemon in LC use over Eviolite anyway, so even defensively, it's not like Eviolite is 100% dominant. There's also the fact that LC is an incredibly offensively oriented tier. Stall does not have an easy team in LC, even with Eviolite. Without it, LC would be waaaaay more centralized, only instead of around "Eviolite" like you claim, it'd be centralized over heavy offense. Eviolite doesn't centralize the meta around itself, it gives archetypes other than highly offensive leaning teams a fighting chance. Additionally, it's true there are very few viable items in LC, but this isn't the fault of Eviolite, it's an inherent problem in LC. A lot of items that are good/viable in normal formats are really garbage in LC. Choice Band/Choice Specs are comparatively significantly worse in LC than in normal tiers. Why? Because the difference between them and Life Orb in power is actually a lot less significant in LC, and the recoil damage from it is also a lot less significant. So, Life Orb >>> Choice Band/Specs in a very large majority of situations. Choice Scarf is still run because unlike the other two, it isn't mostly outclassed, and speed tiers are really significant in LC. Leftovers, again, are garbage in LC. Although unlike CB/CS, it's not because it's outclassed, it's because the higher damage outputs + the insignificance of it's healing makes it completely useless in LC on pretty much anything. So, assuming Berry Juice isn't banned, the items we'll see in LC will probably be Eviolite/Berry Juice/Choice Scarf/Life Orb, with some type gems and maybe some berries thrown in. Without Berry Juice/Eviolite, we'll see Choice Scarf, Life Orb, some type gems and some berries thrown in, and defensive teams are basically garbage. I don't know about you, but no Eviolite doesn't actually sound much more diverse at all.

So allow me to establish a few things, just to clear things up: Yes, Wobbuffet has always been banned in 1v1s. Pretty sure I was on the council waaaaaay back when the first one was hosted with the banlist to boot. I'm going to spoil things for you and ruin Santa Claus; It was never banned because it's too good. I'm going to give you the incredibly simple reason it stayed initially banned: Wobbuffet vs Wobbuffet is kind of annoying. Wobbuffet is Uber, and all the Ubers were originally also banned from 1v1. Nobody really cares if it's banned or not, because it's not like it's that great, and we don't lose much of anything of value by having it banned. That's...about it. It's banned because who cares about unbanning it, it's wobbuffet, best case scenario like 1 guy uses it and loses, worst case scenario some smartasses end up in a long ass stall and we hope one of them encores the other into an early struggle so everyone watching doesn't have to kill themselves. Of course, this could be solved by the coinflip scenario I proposed earlier, but like I said, it's not like not having it around is a big deal so it being banned wasn't even worth arguing. So, although the original reasoning may have been lost to the tides of time, it's safe to say it still exists. So, yes, you did randomly think on your own that it's too strong and shouldn't be allowed, because that's not the reason it was banned in the first place. It is, and I quote, a "magical assumption out of (your) hat of tricks". Granted, your assumption is an obvious one, I can't blame you for assuming that it was the case; Of course, it is still an assumption, and is still incorrect. Also, "YOU SAY IT'S BARELY USED BUT IT'S NEVER BEEN ALLOWED SO HOW WOULD WE KNOW xDDD" is so incredibly infuriating to me it physically causes me pain. Especially because it has nothing to do with what he said??? Yes, "it barely gets used" can't technically be known since it's stayed banned, but you're literally completely ignoring the point of the sentence, which isn't "Wobbuffet is barely used", it's "Why ban those moves instead of just Wobbuffet, which was already banned to begin with?". You literally hard left turned, swerved around the entire intention of what the sentence was supposed to mean, so you could smugly refute his statement without actually addressing what he said in literally any meaningful way whatsoever. Why did you even bother quoting him and responding if that's what you were going to say? Especially since, you know, in my post that you also quoted, I already established a good amount of reasoning as to why it wouldn't be used often at all. And while you might not be able to know for sure, you're literally never going to know for sure if it stays banned forever, and if we have no factual tested basis and you won't accept the hypothetical arguments, then it's not like it's possible to convince you on the matter either way. So to wrap this up, a few things: If you believe Wobbuffet is too good, I would love to hear your reasoning. I've already explained why I completely disagree and provided, what I believe, is pretty good reasoning. The logical question after reading all this is "b-b-b-but SEEEENILE, why are you bothering at all? you just said it stayed banned because nobody cared to unban it, why are you advocating it now?". Well, it's quite simple; I'm not really advocating it all that much. However, I am more than a little rubbed the wrong way by the flaunting around of Wobbuffet being unquestionably broken as indisputable fact, the abrasive responses ("mr TC"? r u real right now?) to people who's jobs are to provide input on this and completely sidestepping their arguments through the original assumption. ("Well, one way or another Wobbu is getting banned... This is already decided"). So, yes, I don't really care if Wobbuffet is unbanned or not, because it's not a big deal, even though it's definitely not broken. I do however disagree with pretty much everything else you've done/said in this thread up until this point, and proving my point that Wobbuffet would not actually be broken is the best method to illustrate this. So, that's about it. You'll probably respond with "Next time I'll get TC input", maybe in bold for emphasis since you already said it. However, considering the Wobbuffet issue is completely tangential to my main problem, I wouldn't bother. With that being said, if literally anyone is actually convinced Wobbuffet would be problematic, I'd be more than happy to argue it with you. With that being said, I heavily doubt it.