YagamiNoir
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Posts posted by YagamiNoir
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Wow, even gen 4 Thunder Fang is allowed.My goal with this challenge was to provide a different strategy for each Elite Four member to confuse and annoy opponents, hopefully with the types and teams I have chosen each battle would be a challenge.
Lorelei: Monotype Ground
"Welcome to Pokémon League! I am Lorelei of the Elite Four! Too many people bested me when it came to Ice type pokemon so I decided it was time for a change! Your Pokémon will be at my mercy with my Earth shattering moves! Hahahaha! Are you ready?".
[Spoiler]
Explanation: For Lorelei I wanted to start off with a balanced team designed to poke holes in the enemies fresh fully healed team, Ground type seemed like the logical choice to start with its vast coverage and respectable resistances
Strategy: Slowly tear apart the opponents team with Dugtrio and wear them down with the 4 pokemon defensive core, Whiscash as the endgame sweeper to mop up the battle.
Dugtrio
Ability: Arena Trap
EV Spread: 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 hp
Held Item: Choice Band
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Aerial Ace
- Pursuit
Dugtrio is my teams choice for a lead and trapper, Arena Trap combined with Pursuit means that nothing slower than Dugtrio can escape without taking damage. Earthquake and Rock Slide provide the standard damage dealing moves hitting everything bar Flygon, Claydol and Breloom for super effective damage, Aerial Ace ohkos Breloom and Pursuit turns the likes of Gengar and Xatu into revive bait. The spread is the standard 252 attack 252 speed designed for outspeeding base 110s whilst delivering the maximum amount of damage.
Flygon
Levitate
EV Spread: 252 hp, 136 speed, 120 defense
Held Item: Leftovers
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Rock Slide
Flygon is the first part of my teams 4 pokemon defensive core, Levitate coupled with its dragon typing means that Water and Grass type attacks are both neutral to Flygon whilst giving it a great immunity to Ground moves. Earthquake and Rock Slide provide Flygon with decent coverage across the board and Toxic is the answer to Bulky Waters and Flying types. The spread gives Flygon the outspeed on Breloom 100% of the time allowing a substitute to be used before Spore, whilst also giving useful outspeeds on Adamant Heracross, Adamant Gyarados, Adamant Dragonite and maximum speed Tyranitar before boosting. The rest is put into hp and then defense to provide maximum physical bulk for tanking hits
Quagsire
Ability: Water Absorb
EV Spread: 252 hp, 252 spdef, 4 def
Held Item: Leftovers
Sassy Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Curse
Quagsire is my teams first special tank, Water Absorb is a fantastic ability to have on a monotype Ground team as it immediately makes Grounds most common weakness negligible. Ice Beam provides good synergy with Earthquake to remove all Flying types from the game allowing Curse boosted Earthquakes to sweep through. Recover is preferred to Rest due to its more reliable recovery despite making Quagsire a status target. A 252 hp and 252 spdef spread with a Sassy Nature allows Quagsire to eat up special hits for the rest of the team.
Camerupt
Ability: Magma Armor
EV Spread: 108 hp, 172 attack, 228 spdef
Held Item: Leftovers
Brave Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Camerupt is my teams second special tank, Ground Fire provides fantastic coverage being resisted by only a handful of Pokemon such as Salamence, Charizard, Gyarados and Flygon (all of which are conveniently dealt with by Flygon or Quagsire). Rest Sleep Talk is the last two moves on the set that allow Camerupt to soak up status and remain healthy throughout the battle. The spread gives Camerupt OHKO power on defensively weak pokemon and the vast majority of Grass and Bug types with the hp and spdef investment making Camerupt an apt absorber of Grass and Ice attacks that would threaten the rest of the team.
Steelix
Ability: Rock Head
EV Spread: 252 hp, 252 def, 4 speed
Held Item: Leftovers
Impish Nature
- Iron Tail
- Roar
- Earthquake
- Explosion
Steelix is my teams physical wall and the last part of the 4 pokemon core, with a monstrous defense stat and a slightly subpar hp stat Steelix is given quite enough to soak even the most powerful physical attacks. Iron Tail and Earthquake are the two stab attacks with Roar for phasing boosters and Explosion for when something gets too out of hand. The spread is a standard 252 hp, 252 def for the best physical soaking potential.
Whiscash
Ability: Oblivious
EV Spread: 252 attack, 252 speed, 4 hp
Held Item: Lum Berry
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Return
Whiscash is my teams endgame sweeper, with decent bulk, an average offense and access to Dragon Dance Whiscash is the perfect choice for a Ground mono sweeper. Waterfall, Earthquake and Return combine to hit everything in the game for at least neutral damage. The spread is simple, maximum attack and speed to make the most of a Dragon Dance boost.
[/spoiler]
Bruno: Monotype Flying
"Through rigorous training, people and Pokémon can become stronger! I weight trained with my Fighting Pokémon for years only to see them constantly lose their gains and overeat, I knew it was time for a change, I am Bruno of the Elite Four and its time for my Pokemon to soar!".
[spoiler]
Explanation: For Bruno I wanted to move away from the wear and tear strategy used by Lorelei and opted for something a bit more aggressive, monotype Flying provided the perfect follow up to monotype Ground with its fast, hard hitting style of play
Strategy: Hit hard and fast, play around the opponents heavy damage dealers with type resistances whilst picking pokemon off with Salamence and Aerodactyl, Mantine as the close game sweeper
Salamence
Ability: Intimidate
EV Spread: 252 attack, 252 speed, 4 hp
Held Item: Choice Band
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Brick Break
- Earthquake
- Air Cutter
Salamence is my lead for the instant intimidate onto the opposing pokemon and the sheer power of its hits behind a choice band. Dragon Claw is the obligatory stab move hitting anything without steel typing for heavy damage, Brick Break and Earthquake are both in to mess around with any steel types with Air Cutter rounding out the coverage dealing super effective damage to Grass, Fighting and Bug types. The spread is a standard 252 attack 252 speed with Adamant nature for those monstrous hits right off the start.
Charizard
Ability: Blaze
EV Spread: 252 hp, 108 attack, 40 spdef, 108 speed
Held Item: Chesto Berry
Careful Nature
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Rest
Charizard is my Jolteon check along with doing a decent job soaking ice attacks should all else fail, Jolteon with hidden power ice has the full potential to sweep my entire team back to front should Aerodactyl lose the speedtie. Fire Punch and Dragon Claw are the coverage moves resisted by nothing currently in the game. The spread allows Charizard to boost up once with dragon dance whilst surviving a timid jolteon thunderbolt 100% of the time, which then ohkos the following turn with a blaze boosted Fire Punch, chesto rest is included for a one time only full recovery after taking heavy damage.
Jumpluff
Ability: Chlorophyll
EV Spread: 252 hp, 252 speed, 4 sp def
Held Item: Leftovers
Timid Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Stun Spore
Jumpluff is my teams annoyer, Sleep Powder and Leech Seed force the switches who then eat a Stun Spore to the face. The spread has nothing too special about it, 252 speed and a timid nature allow speedties with the base 110 pokemon whilst giving maximum investment into hp for bulk, Giga Drain is merely a filler move for a little bit of recovery and serves no purpose worthy of any investment
Skarmory
Ability: Keen Eye
EV Spread: 252 hp, 252 def, 4 speed
Held Item: Leftovers
Impish Nature
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Steel Wing
- Whirlwind
Skarmory is my teams physical wall and answer to rock slides directed at the rest of the team, Drill Peck and Steel Wing allow me to deal with both fighting and rock types, Rest allows me to heal up and allows me to continue tanking physical hits with Whirlwind rounding out the moveset for phasing any boosters. The spread is a standard 252 hp, 252 defense to deal with physical attackers efficiently.
Aerodactyl
Ability: Rock Head
EV Spread: 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 hp
Held Item: Choice Band
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Double Edge
Aerodactyl is my trapper and Revenge Killer, Rock Slide and Earthquake have almost perfect synergy being resisted only by Flygon, Claydol and Breloom, two of which are dealt with comfortably by Pursuit and Double Edge. A 252 attack 252 speed spread gives Aerodactyl maximum firepower with a 50/50 chance at taking down Jolteon in speed ties.
Mantine
Ability: Swift Swim
EV Spread: 252 spatk, 84 speed, 172 hp
Held Item: Petaya Berry
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Endure
- Rain Dance
- Ice Beam
Mantine is this teams special sweeper, the strategy with this pokemon is to switch it in against a bulky water or a pokemon that it can take a hit from and setup Rain Dance, on the following turn use Endure to prevent being KOd and to activate Petaya Berry and watch as a rain boosted + 1 hydro pump tears through the opposing team (with ice beam for grass types and quagsire). The spread gives Mantine the clear outspeed on everything bar Electrode and Ninjask after rain, maximum special attack for the nukes and 172 EVs are poured into hp for as much bulk as possible.
[/spoiler]
Agatha: Monotype Dark
"I am Agatha of the Elite Four! Noad's taken a lot of interest in you, child! That old duff was once tough and handsome! That was decades ago! Now she just wants to fiddle with her Eevee dog dolls! She is wrong! Eevee are cats and Pokemon are for battling! Ill show you how a master of the darkness fights!".
[spoiler]
Explanation: For Agatha I wanted to stray from the fairly traditional and safe picks of Water, Normal and Dragon and go for a more edgy Elite Four battle. The dark typing provided me with few options for pokemon but a perfect opportunity to implement a strategy capable of annoying all challengers expecting to roll through this fight.
Strategy: Annoy the opponent, spread status with Sableye and wear the opposing team down with Sandstorm damage and the Fire, Water, Grass combo. Pass Curse boosts to Tyranitar to blow some things up, play around team frailty with resistances and Sand Veil
Tyranitar
Ability: Sand Stream
EV Spread: 252 attack, 116 speed, 140 hp
Held Item: Leftovers
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Tyranitar is my lead purely because of its ability to provide permanent Sandstorm in a battle, it immediately puts pressure on the opponent to end the battle quickly, its moveset and EV spread is designed around maintaining a strong offensive presence throughout the fight whilst also gaining some enjoyment from Umbreons curse boosts.
Sableye
Ability: Keen eye
EV Spread: 252 Hp, 40 Def, 208 spdef, 8 speed
Held Item: Leftovers
Bold Nature
- Will'o'Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Knock Off
Sableye was the obvious choice for an annoyer, and a much needed resistance for fighting moves. Willowisp and knock off provide the tools for dealing with hard hitting physical attackers and walls alike, recover was preferred to rest as it is far more reliable and gives Sableye the sustain its defenses cannot provide. The EV spread is designed to take two physical hits allowing Sableye to reply with WilloWisp and recover, with the remainder of the EVs poured into Spdef for maximum bulk.
Umbreon (nickname: kitty)
Ability: Synchronize
EV Spread: 252 hp, 120 def, 136 spdef
Held Item: Leftovers
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Baton Pass
- Wish
- Feint Attack
Umbreon is the defensive pivot of the team, Wish is preferred to moonlight as it provides support to the rest of the team without being weakened by sandstorms effects. Baton pass and Curse are the perfect combination of moves which allow slow bulky sweepers such as Tyranitar more possibilities to land KOs. Feint Attack is added in the last slot as a way for Umbreon to dish out damage whilst enjoying the effects of Curse. The EV spread is made to give Umbreon the best possibility of soaking hits when switching in and out with an emphasis on special bulk to add to its already impressive physical bulk after a Curse.
Cacturne
Ability: Sand Veil
EV Spread: 252 sp atk, 148 speed, 108 hp
Held Item: Leftovers
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Destiny Bond
- Hidden Power Fire
Cacturne is the beginning of my fire, water, grass core and arguably the one with the most synergy with the rest of the team. Its ability sand veil and resistances to Ground, Water and Grass attacks make it the perfect partner for Tyranitar. Giga Drain and Leech Seed are the first choices allowing Cacturne to wear down and stall out the opposing team, Hidden Power Fire is added as the best way to deal with opposing Steel, Grass and Bug types with Destiny bond rounding out the set as a way of taking something down with Cacturne. The spread allows me to get the jump on maximum speed Rhydon along with a whole host of bulky Waters such as Vaporeon, Ludicolo, Mantine, Lanturn and Walrein with the rest of the EVs maxed out in Spatk and put into HP
Houndoom
Ability: Flash Fire
EV Spread: 252 attack, 224 speed, 32 spa
Held Item:
Hasty Nature
- Overheat
- Crunch
- Hidden Power Grass
- Thunder Fang
The next member of my Fire, Water, Grass core is Houndoom. Houndoom is the fastest member of my team and is the second fastest Dark type available and as such is required for endgame sweeping. Overheat is the most powerful Fire type move and works perfectly on a mixed set, Crunch is my main physical stab and gives Houndoom a strong alternative to Overheat, Hidden Power Grass lets me deal with the bulky Water and Ground types which otherwise stop this set cold and Thunder Fang is the final move on the set to deal with the likes of Gyarados and Mantine. The spread is designed to provide Houndoom with maximum physical attack value without sacrificing its special attack and impressive speed.
Crawdaunt
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EV Spread: 252 attack, 252 speed, 4 hp
Held Item: Choice Band
Jolly Nature
- Crabhammer
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Return
The final member of my team is Crawdaunt, Crawdaunt is my hardest hitter and as such Crabhammer is preferred to Waterfall for its high crit chance. Crunch provides the obligatory second stab with Superpower and Return rounding out coverage for things such as opposing Dark types and the bulky Normal types. The spread is a standard 252 attack 252 speed for the best value on its attacks whilst avoiding a defensive boost seeing as Crawdaunt is somewhat of a glass cannon.
[/spoiler]
Lance: Monotype Psychic
"Ah! I heard about you trainer, I lead the Elite Four! You can call me Lance the Psychic trainer! You know that I was once a dragon master! Dragons were hard to catch and raise, but their powers were superior! I destroyed weak trainers for years before the tier list council put them on the ban list! Can you believe it!? Its time for me to avenge my fallen Dragons!, your league challenge ends with me!"
[Spoiler]
Explanation: Finally for Lance I decided to try and make this the most difficult and challenging fight of the elite four, naturally monotype Psychic with its wide variety of pokemon was the best choice to form an aggressive tanky team.
Strategy: Immediately put opponent on the backfoot with Jynx, slowly pull apart the main threats with Wobbuffet and either use Starmie to setup a Metagross or Medicham sweep or use Exeggutor in the sun to blow things up.
Jynx
Ability: Oblivious
EV Spread: 252 spatk, 252 speed, 4 hp
Held Item: Scope Lens
Timid Nature
- Fake Out
- Lovely Kiss
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
Jynx is my teams chosen lead, being one of three Psychic pokemon that can learn fake out it was a tough choice who to select as my lead however Jynxs access to Lovely Kiss and his decent speed persuaded me to go for a punt with him. Fake Out and Lovely Kiss provide the immediate pressure on the opponent with Ice Beam and Psychic being selected for their high stab damage outputs. The spread is a standard 252 spatk, 252 speed with Scope Lens for the added crit chance.
Medicham
Ability: Pure Power
EV Spread: 252 attack, 252 speed, 4 hp
Held Item: Choice Band
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch
- Thunderpunch
- Trick
Medicham is my teams first heavy damage dealer, between Pure Power, Choice Band and the maxed out attack stat Medicham hits like an absolute truck. Hi Jump Kick does heavy damage to anything except from Ghost pokemon, Ice Punch deals with the annoying Grass/Poison duel types and Dragons, Thunderpunch is in to deal with the likes of Gyarados, Tentacruel, Mantine and Pelipper with Trick tacked on at the end to permanently cripple an opposing wall. The set is maxed in attack and speed to deal out the damage whilst not getting outsped by some of the slower tankier pokemon.
Starmie
Ability: Natural Cure
EV Spread: 252 hp, 216 speed, 40 spatk
Held Item: Leftovers
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Surf
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
Starmie is my teams first bulky pokemon, with access to recover and a fantastic ability that lets Starmie continuously soak status it acts as my check to many pokemon like Breloom, Gengar and Dusclops who all rely on some form of status. Thunder Wave is on the set to cut the opposing teams speed to allow my heavy hitters the chance to outspeed and OHKO opponents. Psychic and Surf provide the stab moves and have wide neutral coverage. The 216 speed EVs allow Starmie to barely outspeed the likes of Gengar, Tauros, Jumpluff and Espeon with the 252 hp there for some extra bulk, 40 evs into spatk allow Starmie to OHKO Gengar after minimal damage prior to the hit.
Exeggutor
Ability: Chlorophyll
EV Spread: 252 spatk, 204 speed, 52 hp
Held Item: Lum Berry
Modest Nature
- Solarbeam
- Sunny Day
- Hidden Power Fire
- Explosion
Exeggutor is my teams special sweeper and end game cleanup, Exeggutor behind Sunny Day becomes an absolute monster with access to Solarbeam and a sun boosted Hidden Power. Explosion is put on the set at the end to blow up an opposing special wall when Exeggutor is shut down. 204 speed evs give Exeggutor the outspeed on the entire meta bar Electrode and Ninjask when in sun, 252 spatk EVs and a Modest nature provide the largest damage output with the remainder of the EVs thrown into HP for bulk.
Wobbuffet
Ability: Shadow Tag
EV Spread: 252 defense, 252 spdef, 4 hp
Held Item: Leftovers
Careful Nature
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Destiny Bond
- Encore
Wobbuffet is my teams second bulky pokemon, simply trap a choiced opponent or a pokemon without status and simply wait for them to hit you. Counter and Mirror Coat return all damage taken two fold, Destiny Bond gives Wobbuffet the opportunity to take something down with him and Encore allows Wobbuffet to lock an opposing pokemon into the same move over and over. The EV spread is given to maximize Wobbuffets low defenses and give his monstrous HP stat something to work with.
Metagross
Ability: Clear Body
EV Spread: 252 HP, 228 Atk, 12 Def, 16 Spatk
Held Item: Leftovers
Brave Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Psychic
- Hidden Power Fire
Metagross is my teams main Physical sweeper and Tank. Meteor Mash and Earthquake provide decent coverage, Psychic is on the set to provide a strong special output and Hidden Power Fire is chosen to deal with Skarmory who resists the remaining moves. 252 HP and 12 Def EVs allow Metagross to always survive an Adamant Choice Band Dugtrios Earthquake. 228 Atk gives Metagross a strong Meteor Mash on anything that switches in with 16 Spatk EVs given to guarantee a 2HKO on Defensive Skarmory after switching in on a hit.
[/Spoiler]
[spoiler] Also >Air Cutter on CB Mence [/spoiler] -
Pvp playerd don't need the shiny on there competitive pokemon
They don't necessarily need them, but they need the competitive Pokemon still. The grind is difficult as it is. Some if not all of these are "untradeable" so they can't be used for more economical purposes, and shinies either signify/leave a mark on a competitive trainers achievements apart from some players enjoying the aesthetic quality of competitive Pokemon, and above all the ridiculous amount of effort players put into it, an effort that is pretty darn nasty and tedious on any newcomer.
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only thing keeping me here atm is that stupid writing contest lel. I can easily drop by and dominate in showdown again for the next PSL, but aside from that I've already started giving away comps and UTs
I mean, we can't say for sure in that we'd return again for some stupid reason. It's always been hate, comeback, hate again. It's the end of the line for me but who knows. Its all pretty cliche. -
Staff just needs to step back and reflect on how they have been acting and how they want to act from that point on. Don't you want to please your people?
Stop, as much as we don't like the current state of the game, none of us want to see it gone. That's also another reason the staff can do as they please, we aren't going anywhere.
I could care less, which is probably why I'm saying this.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. -
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Are non-player accessible legendaries actually legitimately allowed in this?
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Pardon the double post, our match will begin soon.
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Heroes v Revo:
NightLucifer vs eloyriptor
lucifer wont show up
>I won't show up
I'm more active than he is on forums even when I'm near dead and he was late within the given time, mind you.
That being said, if he's punctual this time, we will do battle within 2 and a half hours, within 1600-1700 CEST. If he doesn't show up, I can't stay further, and the decision goes to Thinkie.
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Okay, the night of nights is approaching.
The night that will dictate how long I stay here.
Should I win, sincerely grateful words to all of you here. Should I lose, I wish the same, and will depart within 3 days.
Gentlemen, it's been an honor.
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I wouldn't exactly call Cradily S. Of course, this is all dependent on what kind of Cradily you're facing, as I can't see a 100% counter either.
Absol can still 2HKO it after one Curse with a Choice Band, for instance, unless it runs Counter or Barrier than can potentially screw Absol up. Even then, Taunt or Substitute can completely set up on Cradily lacking an attack. Similarly SubPunch Pokemon especially those that run STAB such as Primeape/Poliwrath can also prove to be problematic for it, although you could say these sets aren't that common. Given how common it is for Cradily to run Recover, Toxic usually stops it from doing too much and Rest comes with the whole Sleep drawback, although it isn't to say it's not hard to stop as well. Generally, you also have 4MSS on this thing and your dedicated sets do very different things. Let it go out of hand and it can screw you up, but it's not something that gets unstoppable after one Curse.
As for Hitmontop, stuff like Zangoose and Sharpedo in the tier inevitably make it very significant as a pivot with this power creep, alongside being a good Glalie counter, but I wouldn't call it flawless. Bulk Up isn't an effective way to defend against the physical attackers either, because they could just set up alongside you when you're forced to Rest or when they predict it. At the same time, it's mix of offensive and defensive roles seem appealing, but it also comes with a case of 4MSS/limited movepool. Maybe that doesn't matter because its enough to do work, I guess. Considering a defensive set of RSpin/Toxic/Rest/Fighting move, you're complete fodder for Poison types like Nidoking, making your check work not as effective as you'd like unless you run EQ. Hitmontop is thusly also heavily reliant on Wish/cleric support unless it runs Rest itself, since it can get worn down by Choice Band Attacks still; this also relates to the fact that you sometimes have to switch into Spikes damage to get rid of them which further affects its longevity throughout matches.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 54-64 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- 59.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 60-72 (38.2 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 70-84 (44.5 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's good enough, but not as good as a sustainable wall that fits the high ranks should be, or maybe that's just me. Put it in A at the moment, at the very least.
[spoiler] Don't forget that my bby checks/counters this thing hard too, unless Choice Band Thief is concerned, plus I spinblock. [/spoiler]
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Watch Lorelei have a Mewtwo Lead on all teams, instant denial first round. Or at least people always having a Psychic type E4 member with Mewtwo as the ace.
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Well that sucks.
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Would be more than appreciated.
You in-game?
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Need a prize buff? Been looking for some people to give away the rest of my cash for.
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What about the flail set?
Effective, but setting it up takes a considerably long time, especially with bulk. Direct sweeps are usually easier to facilitate than Flail that needs you to be at low health, which is stopped by Arcanine and stuff like Roar/Haze Vaporeon. -
Many pokes can easily fit on any team, that shouldnt be reason to ban them. Like I said, the meta will be different for a few weeks than will become stagnate again. It's just what every metagames does. How arent you going to be intouch with the OU meta but be here defending the biggest change to the OU metagame? You kidding me if you dont really believe the best ADV OU team werent stall, sleeptalk Zapdos+Celebi OP.
None of them are as stagnating as the two Special Walls are. I mean, you literally cannot replace them in what they do and they are well, in some terms, "far too good to not use" in a very unhealthy way. The council's just kinda drawing a blank on what the solution is now, and find the most "unhealthy thing" being the two blobs, since the outcome is kinda unpredictable. These le slippery slopes about bans after bans when this is just a bloody suspect, for oblivion's sake, can mildly get on my nerves, though.
ThinkNice's point was that you don't need stall to win a game, in which you've just evidenced yourself a few posts back as much as the metagames are different, as much as it does appear to be seemingly the "most superior playstyle ever". The rest is a matter of speculation.
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Guys, I put a lot of thought into that post and referenced the usage stats. I'm not saying it's perfect (it's just an opinion) but seriously approach it with an open mind:
- Banning snorlax and blissey then replacing them with 3-4 (umbreon, ludicolo, etc) is a "big variety boom"? Do you consider that a banworthy increase in variety? (just asking).
- The secondary effect of higher special attack usage is not a big varierty increase to me either. People do not think: "oh look, snorlax and blissey are gone, woot, I am going to try to sweep with my fav shiny sharpedo I have never used in OU". People think this: "yes, now I can finally freely spam my Jolteon and starmie up that guys butt". lol? To me it is a similar thing?
- in the end my opinion at this time is that It depends on the balance you are looking for in the game. which was my overall *point* and suggestion for discussion.
- I would appreciate you referencing the usage stats for evidence (none of you did) if you are going to directly quote me and imply the information I typed in regards to usage stats is false.
....You should read the thread thoroughly before actually posting next time. To an extent, yes, that in theory should be a "variety boom", although it's yet to be proven in practice. You can find the details as to why within the thread.
>Sharpedo. Well, I get for Slowbro, but Sharpedo. And why isn't it an increase apart from the fact that "you don't think so", which means...close to nothing? Why isn't the significant decrease of stagnation in special attacking making the game more variable?
...What in oblivion's name are you trying to prove? Everything the thread has been trying to centralize is to reduce the stagnation and therefore produce a "balanced" meta. A meta where your Jolteons or whatever will "fly around" and where Special wall variety is more diverse is better than one with irreplaceable obese wall stagnation. What is it in this thread that so opposes your ideals?
....Don't make snide demands, and usage stats as of this current discussion are irrelevant since usage stats in a meta without Lax/Bliss don't exist yet. I didn't even think your post had anything to relate to usage stats for that matter. Oh, you're talking about the Starmie thing in your first post? An obese wall still existed, so it's irrelevant to what's being proposed now.
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Robofiend made a post in the original snorlax thread that is almost a mirror of the OP of this thread and the reasoning behind the argument is bias and false. It is bias because you're just singling two pokemon out and saying if you take these two pokemon out with high usage rates there will be more variety. This same statement can be applied to a varity of pokemon in our metagame:
[spoiler]
Ban Weezing.
- It is on 50%+ of teams. Because of it's unique ability and typing, it is an easy "go to" choice as a defensive pivot. If banned, players will have to plan for and play around pokemon like heracross and machamp moreso than before. This puts more thought into team building and adds variety to the metagame.
Ban Starmie, Espeon and Jolteon.
- These special attacking elite are among the highest usage of special attackers in the game because of their high speed, high special attack, and good movepools. Players will now have to put more thought into team building for the pokemon in the special attacking slot since these "go to's" are no longer around. This puts more thought into team building and will result in significantly more variety.
Ban heracross and ursaring.
- With only a few pokemon in the metagame that can resist the brutal attack power of these two physical hitting giants, it's easy to see that they are optimal choices for any team builder. Without these two pokemon in the metagame, players will be forced to put more thought into finding an outstanding physical attacker. Pokemon like Aerodactyl and Machamp will rise in usage as we see more variety and a more healthy metagame to enjoy.[/spoiler]
The argument is false because:
- A ban does not cause a big variety boom. A ban just causes a "shuffle" to the next best thing in line behind the current OP stuff like we saw in the blissey test.
- Also, increasing special attacker usage as the result of a ban does not create more variety either, it just rasises the usage rates on the most favorable special attackers. We also saw this with the blissey test - when snorlax was the main special wall, special attackers were slightly more used. Did you see slighty more variety? No. All we saw was starmie usage go slightly up.
At the end of the day it is my opinion that the discussion you guys are looking for should be less focused on characteristics of snorlax and blissey and more focused on questions like:
- whether a metagame without definite checks for special attackers is a desirable metagame (and why)?
- What kind of special attacking power should pokemon typically be capable of producing in a balanced metagame?
- and what kind of balance is appropriate between our offensive and defensive forces in a healthy metagame?
Le slippery slopes. I'm probably not the most appropriate person to respond to this, but it admittedly intrigued me, in a somewhat negative way.
Those examples and comparisons are terrible, so to speak. I mean, there's a far more justified reason the two obese Special Walls are being suspect banned this way over everything else you've listed, and evidenced in practice as well. Removing Heracross and Ursaring, for instance, unless they fall under the offensive characteristic suddenly is not justified at all, apart from the stupid idea of "creating more variety for stuff like Machamp, and all." I'm pretty sure it's logical to say that physical attacking is not stagnant nor is it stagnating anything -- in a significant way, at least. Variety in physical attacking still exists, whereas Bliss/Lax on the other hand display stagnation not only on the Special Attacking end but also some other minor things as well; heck, it mainly stagnates the usage of special walls. This test doesn't approach the standard policy of "fall under characteristics", but, well, just check some text walls in this thread explaining why.
"A ban does not result in a variety boom. A ban results in a shuffle, etc."
When something that is stagnating the metagame is banned, the variety will change, inevitably, if not increase. Whether or not this will be true to the case in regards to the Blissey/Snorlax ban is unsure since we've not tested it yet, but it's what the council has come up with under the observation of the solo Bliss and the Bliss/Lax metas. And the council, with apologies for this presumptuous statement, perhaps believes that the near-fail safe ability to counter or check Special Attackers of Blissey and Snorlax, in tandem with a lot of other things they can do, are stagnating the metagame. As much as it's possibly false as it may turn out in practice, I believe it's true to word that special walling will no longer be failsafe and the variety of other special cushions will have to be used; people will have to think and plan instead of slapping an irreplaceable wall on their team which is the "variety" a healthy metagame desirably possesses.
As for your final paragraph...that's what the council's been focusing on, to be fair. There was never any "characteristic ban" in this discussion to begin with, so not sure how you're pulling that out of your hat.
EDIT: Two ninjas, damn.
- Kiliminati, Arimanius and Gunthug
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well I think you've gotta look at it from the perspective of "how does it affect teambuilding in OU." When lax went, blissey was easy to slot into teams because 1. it still walled special attackers (far more than lax, even), and 2. it wasn't completely helpless against strong physical attackers. Why? Because bliss could survive a lot of physical attacks, even CB attacks, and the threat of counter is always there. Also, blissey's respectable special attack meant physical pokes couldn't switch in freely very often. Set up pokes also feared this special attack - two that come to mind are scizor and rhydon, which were threatened by flamethrower and ice beam respectively.
But if lax and bliss are removed, does chansey slot into teams without leaving a team wide open to a devastating physical attacker? Not at all, in my opinion. Chansey is inviting set up pokes to do their worst, and the range of set up pokes in OU is far greater than those in UU. Will chansey see increased OU usage? Yeah, probably to the point where it rises above the UU cutoff. But I can almost guaruntee that we won't see 50%+ usage like we did with bliss/lax
I get the point of the ban and the reasonibg behind it, although the OP's emphasis of "scurry obesity that walls special attacks that are stagnant" made me backtrack about Blissey's younger sibling without thinking about the flaws. Just "OP wall for specials."
I worded it there, though; "With understanding to the test ban". -
Spider obsessions.I dont think bliss would go under defensive - this seems like an unhealthy for the metagame test (considering defensive characteristic ubers don't usually warrant a test)
In response to rache's concern about Chansey, OU is full of things that can abuse toxic/seismic toss coverage. Blissey has respectable special attack which threatens a lot of potential switch ins, but chansey is far far easier to set up on
I'll leave this calc here to settle any concerns about chansey in OU:
[spoiler][spoiler][spoiler][spoiler][spoiler][spoiler]
+1 252+ Atk Swarm Ariados Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Chansey: 415-490 (127.3 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
[/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]
Yeah, I suppose so. We're taking account about how it deals with both sides of the walling spectrum instead of just the special side (the emphasis made me think that was the only thing that mattered because Blissey in theory is not unbeatable, with understanding to the test ban regardless). Chansey can pull off the whole Protect-Choice lock thing that was memtioned throughout the old UU discussion, but I suppose it's not desirably effective regardless. -
I mean, it doesn't need a Special Attack against Special Attackers at all. Most of Blissey's Special Attacks were directes towards physical attackers. Even without it Seismic Toss and a recovery move is more than enough to walk things just as efficiently as Blissey does.thats not really true since chansey doesnt have the special attacking ability that blissey has, limiting its movesets largely
EDIT: Never mind, typing on a phone is too slow. -
Ok so suddenly Blissey fits the defensive charactersitc or something because two obese blobs are making the metagame too stagnant.
We might see Chanseys everywhere, I don't know. -
just hit me up when ur in game and we'll discuss
I'll be on within the hour if you're still there.
[PSL] PokeMMO Super League Season 3 - Semifinals!
in Competition Archive
Posted
#shuttingdownDPPOUwinrates
This is deja vu though, am I the only guy in the team that wins at the final round again. This was close though.
Rematch: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-244686900