Robofiend

really gotta but moonblast/draining kiss on that klef tho

I second this

Jeez those 1% lives unrelated: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-277218636

As for blonde's request: Variety: I'd say this is the biggest factor that Chansey limits. While it does incentivize fighting types, Guts users, etc. It also dissuades people from running CM users, weaker physical attackers, other special walls, special sweepers and anything that's weak to Toxic stall, as I've been saying. More than anything, Chansey just makes you want to run Chansey because it's so good for stopping status and residual damage from being the deciding factor in any game. Balance: ever since Chansey started seeing use in OU the game has become more defensive. The TC keeps coming back to this point, but it'd be nice to have a game where offense is as viable as defense is and we just haven't seen that yet. I think there's little hope, however, for true offense to work if you can't run Jolteon, Espeon, Alakazam, etc. or win matches without a Guts user. Competitivity: Maybe a slight loss of competivity with Chansey. I guess it really is an easy poke to use, and can allow the worse player to win if you don't have it just because the nature of Wish/Protect is to give you second chances is you mess up. But it also can be a limiting factor of success, even in the hands of a skilled player if its weaknesses aren't adequately patched up. Randomness: No net +/- here, Chansey doesn't really rely on luck. Overall (like I've said) Chansey might not be quickban material but I'm still not seeing it being healthy (as in providing balance to other strategies and having downsides that force evolution instead of stagnation in the game).

A thought on Toxic/status stall and health: Toxic is annoying and it makes sense people want the cure-all protection that Chansey gives (there are no words for the rage I feel when my P2 gets Toxic'd and loses its Stall power) but I think that Toxic is only scary in metas where walls are too common (e.g. current meta, old UU, etc.). If offense were more viable Toxic wouldn't be so central to this debate. This is actually one of the best points anyone's brought up in this discussion, so props, but I think there's a resolution to it. Bear with me on this, but people could make loads of arguments about "unhealthy" pokemon in the current metagame, e.g: "Magneton's unhealthy because it traps Skarmory" "Skarmory's unhealthy because it is so good at spiking" "Metagross is unhealthy because it's on 40% of teams, can sweep well with a Meteor Mash boost and can 2HKO any wall in the tier with CB (except Swampert)" "Arcanine is unhealthy because it punishes you for running Heracross or other Endure/Sub/Rev users" On the face of it, you could entertain beliefs like these - they aren't totally bullshit. But when you consider the pokemon in question overall and how it works in the game, it becomes harder to argue for these kinds of things. These pokemon all have strengths and people use them - but it's not like they provide a ton of value against 75% of the metagame. They all have checks and downsides to using them: Metagross and Magneton are revenge killed by Dugtrio (assuming no Sub). Arcanine has to worry about Gyarados and random EQ's from Heracross or other physical sweepers. Skarmory is trapped by Magneton and hit hard by common physical attackers (not to mention that we have spinners who check spikes well). And, unlike Chansey (to some degree), I can give some justification for why they should exist: Arcanine prevents End/Rev from getting too powerful, Magneton prevents other steel types from running amok unchecked and Metagross provides offensive players with a bulky pivot that can patch up weaknesses against Starmie or Choice Band Aerodactyl with Pursuit. I could probably make arguments like this for a lot of pokemon in the tier (Ludicolo helps against Rain on non-Chansey teams, Swampert stops Aerodactyl, Metagross and non HP Grass Jolteon, Slowbro runs over teams that don't have Toxic support, a special wall or a Heracross) but that would just be excessive - no one's even arguing that they're unhealthy. This kind of thing gets said a lot but: if you think any of the pokemon in OU is unhealthy/broken/etc. you can request it and make your argument. Chances are, you'll be proven wrong if you're wrong: like when people said "hey Dugtrio should be banned" despite the fact that it was on 9% of teams (far less than Chansey's 30%, mind you) and had a lot of trouble against other top-used pokemon. There's literally no point in arguing that Ludicolo is unhealthy in this particular thread, you can create a new thread for that if you really want to look like a fool. A pokemon's health/unhealth should never just be assumed or not debated - it should be looked at as a whole based on all of its relevant characteristics, and that's what we're doing. Of course, opinions can differ here and there but on the whole, there's a reason we have a TC with a majority rule structure. Hopefully that reasoning is at least acceptable as for how to justify a pokemon from being healthy for the game. TL;DR - health partly relies on a balance of being viable with having weaknesses: no unhealthy pokemon is moderately viable and has a lot of weaknesses, that's almost a contradiction in terms. Edit: @bl0nde - can someone else do this whole variety/balance/etc. thing. I'm tired of typing walls of text for tonight.

Sorry but you need to reread my post, you majorly missed the following points: 1. NC is a big deal and other Clerics have to run Heal Bell to be as effective at stopping status 2. Wish/Toxic/Protect isn't the problem, Chansey is the problem 3. Other special walls have special weaknesses or can't heal themselves/prevent Toxic from running them over Stuff I should have been more clear about: 1. Protect can be used to rack up extra Toxic damage on CB Heracross or Ursa as can spikes (which I didn't explicitly point out) 2. Toxic isn't "OP" it's just good for offensive and bulky offensive teams: it lets you wear down walls who can otherwise abuse instant recovery and makes faster sweepers more effective against tanks like Slowbro and Arcanine, who otherwise give sweeper-ish teams a hard time. Last bit: Yeah that's the whole point: it's not about one aspect of the pokemon ever, it's about looking at pokemon holistically. I'm not like 100% for banning Chansey (or quickbanning it, rather) but I do feel like there's a multitude of reasons that Chansey should be banned, starting with it just being inconsistent to keep Chansey around when it's almost as effective as Blissey and ending with it just being useful as hell in the current game. I don't know if people are selling their Chanseys because of my comment but lol ok. I am always open for people to point out ways that Chansey is in fact healthy for the game, but no one ever really does that. Why does the game need Chansey? I'm not seeing quality responses to that question enough. edit: good point @Zebra, i'll address "why is it good for the meta" later

Lets ban Gengar then? I have yet to read anyone saying it totally needs to come back, and I think we're all actually a lot happier with it gone unless someone's not speaking up. edit: Zebra make a poll on this?

I'd like to point out (for like the 5th time) that usage rate =/= unhealthiness, Landorus-I was banned in ORAS OU for being unhealthy (no, not offensively Uber, unhealthy) and its usual usage rate was ~30% (similar to Heatran, Keldeo, Lando-T). There's more to being unhealthy than just being used way too much: anything that is too good at doing its job can become a problem, as can anything that forces a playstyle on you. In my opinion Chansey is the supreme ruler of special walls right now (compared to others, who have to worry about wasting a moveslot on Heal Bell and don't have NC) and because of its common Wish/Protect scouting trick, can pretty easily rack up residual damage on Choice Banders and setup attackers alike, all while keeping checks to them (Weezing, Skarmory, Slowbrah, Aero, Metagross) healthy enough to keep the slower wallbreakers from doing too much damage. The main issue I have with Chansey is that while it may be a bit of a blob, it's really really useful in the current OU landscape. Toxic stall is good offense against just about anything not named Metagross (or Skarmory/Forretress) and Wish/Protect gives Chansey the defense it needs to prevent Choice Banders from rolling over it or chipping away at valuable defensive pivots like Arcanine or Weezing. The solution people love to point out is either "run lots of Steel types" or "run Guts users" but what I see a lot of people doing is just running Chansey to prevent the opponent's Chansey from ever using Toxic or Seismic Toss too effectively. Too little emphasis is placed on how useful ST is as well: it wears down any CB-er, and when you combine that with Toxic and Spikes you've got a meta where offense really struggles (in part because a lot of our best sweepers are grounded). When you compare Chansey to other Heal Bell/Wish users or special walls (Vaporeon, Chansey, Lanturn, Jolteon, Umbreon, Espeon), you should notice two things: 1. The other possible clerics all have both Special and Physical weaknesses (prominent ones) and Chansey has no special weaknesses and only one physical weakness, fighting also isn't very common in OU. 2. In order to be as effective as Chansey at doing what Chansey does, these pokemon have to run Wish/Protect/Toxic/Heal Bell (or lose Toxic/Protect and gain an attacking move). In doing so they lose Chansey's unique ability to provide damage output on everything in the game (kek @ Zebra's suggestion that we all run Haunters). I don't have a problem with Toxic, Stall or Clerics, but I do have a problem with a pokemon who makes using any of those tactics wayyy easier, while stopping offense/hyper offense from being used hardly at all. TL;DR - while Chansey might not be as highly used as Blissey, I think it's going to start seeing more usage in light of how effective it is. Furthermore, being used isn't the only criterion for the health of anything (not sure how people STILL don't understand this) and you have to look at suspects holistically to see what makes them healthy/unhealthy. I'm not 100% on Chansey, but I have yet to hear a really compelling argument for how it's good for OU: most people opposing Chansey ban just seem to be posting some variation of "YEAH BUT IF YOU USE THIS UNVIABLE/UNCOMMON STRATEGY THEN CHANSEY IS USELESS LOL" @Kanzo smh, suggesting Sub/Flail when Arc is top 5 most used, @K9 suggesting Blaziken who is terminally NU in the OU metagame, for now.

Yeah but without Chansey in the meta you can run stuff like Toxic Slowbro/Arcanine/Jolteon if you wanted to poison P2 - thus offensive teams can work around stall, which is hard right now because Chansey negates pretty much anything but Choice Banders or fighting types. You may not think Toxic is important, but it's one of the only ways for offense to work around stall/semistall because without NC you need to spend a turn somewhere using Heal Bell, and offense only works when you have free turns to get attackers into play. With NC Chansey all you need to do with send in Chansey to absorb a Toxic and then you can switch out for free and bring something else into play. You're right that few Chansey run Heal Bell, but that's largely because of how effective NC is at preventing status from breaking through walls (like it should). Even if Porygon gets 5HKO'd, its lack of team support is very apparent when you consider that it can't pass wishes and it opens the door for other scary pokemon like Metagross to sweep. Just doesn't seem like you're considering Chansey's abilities holistically - just nitpicking off small facts and then likening them to things that already exist but are considerably worse at doing their job than Chansey.

The Lando-I point isn't about the reasoning for or against the ban. It's showing that health and usage rate aren't the same thing. Umbreon's still a cleric, I don't see why it should have to be outclassed by Chansey. Umbreon also just isn't as good as Chansey because Pursuit doesn't do much but stop Starmie, and unlike Seismic Toss, it doesn't threaten Choice Banders who switch in. Chansey might protect against Kingdra or Ludi but not against other types of Rain offense (like Kabutops). Porygon2 can also stall out Rain Offense with Toxic as long as Kingdra/Ludi don't run Rain+Toxic and Rest. Lastly, Tentacruel's been pointed out as a good protection against Rain, although it remains to be seen how effective it'd be at dealing with anything else in OU so you have a point here. Vaporeon has to carry Hell Bell to beat Toxic stall, which in your case would give it no offense. Chansey's just better because it can take the risk of getting statused - Natural Cure is a big plus. Without Surf Vap's Heracross/Ursaring bait and can't defend itself as well against Jolteon or Starmie, both of whom have one less relatively hard counter if Chansey were banned. Without Toxic it also become Metagross bait, which can be bad. Calm minders have an even tougher time with Chansey in the picture. Chansey can win if they attack first instead of CM/Sub and can at least Toxic, absorb the Sync'd poison and then switch out and try to get Espeon/Zam/Slowbro to waste turns (or better yet, sack something and bring in Tauros/Aero/Heracross) and Pursuit trap them when Toxic damage starts piling up. A couple other pokemon can Toxic stall (Slowbro, Porygon, Arcanine, Ludi) but none of them can beat it. Skarm has to give up Rest or Drill Peck, Porygon can use Facade (you have a point there). Others like Vaporeon and Umbreon can, but they also have resistance holes and other downsides (mostly lack of NC and lack of Seismic Toss) that make them inferior to Chansey. The fact that we're even discussing Toxic this much just speaks to how common it is and how effective it is against the current metagame. Without Chansey you can still block Toxic stall by using Venusaur, Skarmory, or something with Heal Bell. But the point is that using something like Vaporeon can be a big problem if your opponent has pokemon to beat it or work around your core (e.g. Espeon, who Chansey can at least provide some answer to with Toxic) TL;DR - that's a lot of different points, and they are points, but I almost entirely disagree. You're downplaying its ability, typing (especially this), and strength as both a special wall and cleric at the same time, and that's leading you to some bad conclusions.

Landorus was banned for being unhealthy and was on less than 30% of teams, alongside other special sweepers and wallbreakers like Thundurus, Latios and Keldeo boom knowledge. Also you're still dodging my question about what good Chansey does for the metagame - in which way is it healthy? People have already suggested it's not and you keep on running back to hide under the covers of usage % instead of addressing other ways that it might actually be good for the game. To recap: We've said Chansey's not healthy because - Usage shows a drop in use of special sweepers like Jolteon since Gengar ban - Usage shows a drop in use of special walls like Porygon, Venusaur, Umbreon since Gengar ban - If you don't run a cleric against it you can immediately be at a disadvantage - it defends your walls from Toxic stall while threatening other's walls with Toxic stall - Wish allows for extended longevity, awesome scouting and great team support that no other currently used special wall can offer

I'm really skeptical about how balanced a format is if I'm a top player in it, lol

"Recall that usage is not the same as health, so you can't say "well 34% vs. 56%" and have that mean anything - there has to be a way in which Chansey is somehow good for an evolving metagame while Blissey was not"

I haven't seen usage for the OU Marathon - I was under the impression that was still being worked on? If it has been released pls link. Also can you please explain how you agreed that Blissey was unhealthy and needed to be banned and why now you think Chansey is healthy? It seems your views are very inconsistent here. Recall that usage is not the same as health, so you can't say "well 34% vs. 56%" and have that mean anything - there has to be a way in which Chansey is somehow good for an evolving metagame while Blissey was not. As far as I can tell, they both share the same characteristic of being the best special wall (even if they are beaten by things that people don't use, like Espeon - stop bringing it up) and best cleric. Also bear in mind that since the Gengar ban, usage rates for things like Jolteon have fallen. As far as the "just run cleric" point - why would I run one of those when I can have something that does Porygon2's job and Vaporeon job in the same poke? The only reason I can think of is that Chansey outclasses all of the other Clerics almost by default.

First things first: Sure, Porygon doesn't get 2hko'd by everything, but no, that doesn't mean it's as good to have on a team as Chansey. Chansey's ability to soak up Toxic, as well as dish it out, as well as Wish heal teammates, as well as Heal Bell teammates back to healthy status is a clear advantage over watching your Porygon die to poison, even if Porygon provides a bit more offense. Absolute rofl at "Chansey isn't immune to Toxic" - do you know how Natural Cure works? Please don't make me be condescending by making claims like that.Your Pursuit kill is not standard, nor was it a good play on your opponent's part not to Wish/Protect itself back to safety or scout Heracross's move. And just because Heracross can kill Chansey doesn't mean we should all have to run it to stop Chansey from Toxic stalling everything to death. Also 30% usage is low, updated usage will show Chansey's being used at a much higher rate, which only helps our "yo it's centralizing" point. I definitely saw it on over 30% of teams Sunday.

Alright, lets look at the top 10 of usage to see exactly how wrong you are, because as it turns out, you're really fucking wrong. I'm going to write "X" if Chansey "walls" something and "+" if the pokemon can 2HKO it. Metagross + Arcanine X Weezing X Flygon + Chansey X Porygon2 X Ludicolo X Magneton X (no one just keeps Chansey in after it uses Metal Sound) Venusaur X Aerodactyl X - RS is 3HKO Starmie X Slowbro X Skarmory X Gyarados X Swampert + (assuming CB) Dugtrio + Cloyster X Jolteon X Forretress X Heracross + Dusclops X Gardevoir X Vaporeon X Ursaring + So in reality the correct statement is that "Chansey walls most pokemon who are on more than 10% of teams". 18/24 pokemon have X's here, that's 75%. So no, most of the metagame does not fucking 2HKO Chansey, please make some other point. Thus we say that Chansey does have good defense against most of the metagame, along with great support to keep its wall teammates healthy in the face of setup attackers like Ursaring or Heracross. Saying that it's Uber offense could be a stretch, but its support capabilities are pretty unreal. It singlehandedly stops the other instant heal pokemon (Arc, Slowbro, Porygon, Ludi) from dying to Toxic and has great special defense. More than Chansey's defensive effectiveness though, or the fact that it runs Protect (you're srs straw manning here, no one is suggesting we ban anything because it learns Protect), Chansey is just too good not to use. It fits on any team because it's a 100% perfect counter to Toxic stall, which brings down every other wall in the game. There's no downside when the top specially defensive pokemon (and important attackers like Slowbro, Porygon2 and Ludicolo) can get wall-stalled by Toxic and die. Chansey basically outclasses any special wall since it can provide reliable damage with Seismic Toss while also preventing counter-walling with Toxic. Just by having Chansey on your team you're immediately immune to Toxic, thus supercharging all of your physical/mixed walls for free. TL;DR - there's a reasonably argument for Chansey being Uber Defense, but an even more reasonable one for it being unhealthy, centralizing, and "too good not to use" enough that we shouldn't keep it around.

Yo also VGC is weak leggo ORAS

Awww yis My opinion: get rid of ADV and replace with DPP - it'd be good practice for that someday when 4th gen comes to PokeMMO

Zebra, Orange, etc... I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Gengarless meta, the prospects of banning Chansey, etc. I think there's fairly wide support for keeping Gengar banned, but I'd like to get some kind of consensus going.

True story I thought uMadBrah was the man, you'd be buds if he weren't anti-LYLE for sure. Never seen more staff hate out of one guy.

Zebra already pointed this out (somewhere) but if you look at the usage between now/then, Dugtrio/Magneton haven't really become more/less common. They've just become more effective now because before they were a bit superfluous: Gengar could smash walls all day, especially with Ursaring as support. Dugtrio was just as good at killing chanseys pre-ban as it is now. Honestly I only saw 2 Dugtrio teams yesterday and almost every team had Chansey. I think that speaks to how viable and how meta-defining each poke is.

Is that counting UU pre split? I remember Raaidn consistently turned up on that meta

bump

Recently we've noticed that Chansey has become really common in OU, and that it's really useful as a blanket check to pretty much everything (and it functions amazingly well as a cleric for stall). Do you think it would be better if Chansey were banned? (this question is open to everyone) Opinion: OU is a bit stall-y right now, but it's not as bad (in terms of being centralized) as the Snorlax/Blissey meta. Chansey in particular shines as a special wall, and is a lot like Blissey. Despite being less bulky than it's evolution, Chansey's a god tier special wall (I think usage will confirm this) and given our reasoning for banning Blissey and Snorlax, it may also be fair to ban Chansey. That's all a bit off topic from Gengar, but I will say this: It's a lot easier to build a team without the threat of Gengar running you over. The special sweeper set, defensive and nuke special+status Gengar sets that became popular before the ban all required a lot of different counters to stop. In some ways, stall made more sense in that metagame: Gengar can stall against stall but can't truly break it outside of stopping Slowbro and Arcanine. Now stall is a little underpowered because of how many common pokemon have instant recovery, but walls like Chansey are also highly used because of how good status, Wish passing and Heal Bell are for any type of team. I believe we'll be making a decision on Gengar soon, so now is the time to voice your opinion OU players

My god, Chansey on every team The banhammer is calling