[UU Discussion] Slowking (Banned from UU to BL)

[Artemiseta]

SLOWKING

 

this monster can sit in the uu environment and do as it pleases especially if it runs curse. it is a slightly less efficient slowbro the defensive stats are switch on slowbro and slowking (slowbro great def and ok sp def. slowking great sp def and ok def). the ability of slowking to slack off to gain healtha dn pp stall a poke is great. the best option we have in uu at the moment is sharpedo I believe and its crunch with cb is still a 2ko (tho slowking cannot pp stall this one well)

viable moves: I might have missed some

curse

body slam

EQ

iron tail

brick break

return

surf

psychic

calm mind

toxic

thunder wave

hidden powers (electric and grass come to mind maybe fire for steels but most have a part that makes weak to water)

shadow ball

slack off --deadly

rest

light screen

disable

yawn

signal beam

 

POSSIBLE SETS: this is not an exclusive list but just ideas that I had that seem viable

curse

earthquake

slack off

brick break/iron tail (gotta hit the ghosts)

 

curse

slack off

focus punch (for the switches to shapredo and crawdaunt)/ brick break

iron tail

 

curse

slack off

ice punch

earthquake

 

cam mind

slack off

counter

surf/psychic

 

calm mind  (just like slowbro in ou but with weaker defense)

slack off

surf/ hidden power electric to avoid getting shut down as hard by sharpedo and crawduant

psychic

 

utility:

thunder wave/toxic

slack off

counter

a stab move here preferably surf I would think

 

you shall not pass set: it will only die to swords dance users. it can stall out the rest steels shut it down but they will not break through

iron defense

toxic

amnesia

rest

 

Please discuss your thoughts and opinions on this. keep it civil and calm please.

looking for someone to post a wall of calcs for this (craig and fredward)

Edited March 24, 2015 by Artemiseta

[flavajabari]

crawdaunt doe.

 

also doesnt it just learn flamethroweR?

Edited March 23, 2015 by flavajabari

[fredrichnietze]

ability own tempo or oblivious

 

base stats 95/75/80/100/110/30

 

main sets

 

curse

careful max sp def 

leftovers/lum

moveset:

brick break / EQ

ice punch / return 

slak off/rest

curse

 

calm mind

bold max def

leftovers/lum

moveset

calm mind

slak off/rest

2x of surf/psychic/ice beam/signal beam/shadow ball/flamethrower (ty flava)

 

for art

Edited March 23, 2015 by fredrichnietze

[DrCraig]

Most dominating set in my opinion:

Natures: Bold / Calm / Relaxed / Sassy

Item: Leftovers

EVs: 252HP / 252DEF

Moveset:  Slack Off

                 Surf

                 Psychic / Ice Beam

                 Calm Mind / Focus Punch / Thunder Wave

 

Personally I think Slowking should remain UU.

Of course this is always an argument for instant HP recovery pokemon, but toxic is everywhere.

I think it is a great well rounded wall such as Blastoise, but it also has nice weakness to Dark/Ghost/Bug which gives it issues as a physical wall.

Calm Mind is very scary which is in my opinion the best move to run. A Slowking which isn't poisoned can easily set up, sponge special and physical attacks and get at least 1 guaranteed kill.

It can withstand thunderbolts from Lanturns, the common earthquakes etc.

But I digress, it has glaring weakness, it is prone to pursuit trapping, there is a significant amount of pokemon which can hit it hard on switch ins, however a limited, but existing, number of hard counters. Crawdaunt.

I think this is the same case as OU Slowbro. Instant health recovery yeilds status problems and so does the low speed. Slowking is healthy for the tier in my opinion. I guess I'll post calc later.

Edited March 23, 2015 by DrCraig

[Artemiseta]

yes it get fire blast  and flamethrower forgot about that thanks flava and yes crawdaunt but it is same as sharpedo in terms of attack and sharpedo more likely to be baneded.

and thanks for the stats fred ill add them to my post. (I was really looking for picture craig added as I typed it out)

[OldKeith]

I don't see how a curse set can really be a problem, since it is prone to status. Both CM and Curse sets are a bit scary and can be devastating, but I feel like Slowking needs a lot of curses to start hitting hard on the physical side. I don't think the CM set can be a problem though, because of the low base speed and defense and the great number of pokemon that can 2hko it, or just wall it while it is poisoned.

Edited March 23, 2015 by OldKeith

[BurntZebra]

Never actually considered curse slowking, most likely due to the lack of a physical stab. Although slack off may seem like the lord and savior of the slowpoke evolution tree, its a double edged sword because UU has the most toxic stall of any tier which will force out slowking very quickly. In addition to its vulnerability to status, there are many offensive pokemon that can force slowking out, obviously depending on if it is curse, calm mind, or just utility. Absol gets a special mention as it will ohko slowking with pursuit if the slowking tries to switch out and can ohko slowking with megahorn if slowking attempts to predict the pursuit. As was previously mentioned are crawdaunt and sharpedo, which resist/are immune to slowking's stab attacks and crawdaunt can easily set up dragon dances or swords dances to easily overwhelm slowking. Then strong special attackers such as manectric/cacturne/electabuzz (maybe?) can force out slowkings that rely on special defense investment and curse to attempt to sweep. Although slowking is definitely a dominant force in UU, depending on match ups of course, I don't really see it as being banworthy just because of the offensive pokemon in UU that can easily overwhelm slowking.

[DrCraig]

yes it get fire blast  and flamethrower forgot about that thanks flava and yes crawdaunt but it is same as sharpedo in terms of attack and sharpedo more likely to be baneded.

Sharpedo I'm going to have to deem as a check because of its lack of bulk:

4 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 54-64 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4 Atk Slowking Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 180-214 (123.2 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However it can come in on Psychic, as we know.

 

But:

252+ Atk Choice Band Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 194-230 (96 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 176-210 (87.1 - 103.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

 

As for Crawdaunt:

Dragon Dance Spreads:

4 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 43-51 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 126 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 43-51 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

CB Spreads:

4 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 43-51 (25.2 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

4 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 43-51 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO

And for the sake of being redundant, focus punch does approximately 60-80% depending on spread, a 2hko in all cases when uninvested.

 

I would call Crawdaunt a counter, it's pretty solid if built correctly.

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 194-230 (96 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 176-210 (87.1 - 103.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 132-156 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 116-140 (57.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Eeek I fucked up with the Slowking nature and didn't put Bold. All attacks can probably be assumed to be 2hko in that part b/c STAB Crunch + High ATK

:(

Edited March 24, 2015 by DrCraig

[felix]

Never actually considered curse slowking, most likely due to the lack of a physical stab.

I though Waterfall was physical now, but I could be wrong :P

 

I don't why nobody put waterfall in the curse set, Waterfall + Eq would be a pretty strong combo

Edited March 23, 2015 by felix

[DrCraig]

I though Waterfall was physical now, but I could be wrong :P

 

I don't why nobody put waterfall in the curse set, Waterfall + Eq would be a pretty strong combo

 

I guess EQ and Ice Punch would be the premier set

[Artemiseta]

doesn't get waterfall as craig pointed out. I have no idea why but yes I thought of that too

[DrCraig]

By the way, I have the answer to all your Curse Slowking problems

 

4 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 19-23 (12.9 - 15.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

4 Atk Slowking Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 15-18 (10.2 - 12.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

+1 4 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 29-35 (19.7 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 4 Atk Slowking Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 22-26 (14.9 - 17.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+6 4 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 78-92 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 4 Atk Slowking Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 59-69 (40.1 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

You can close this thread now.

[BurntZebra]

By the way, I have the answer to all your Curse Slowking problems

 

4 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 19-23 (12.9 - 15.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

4 Atk Slowking Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 15-18 (10.2 - 12.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

+1 4 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 29-35 (19.7 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 4 Atk Slowking Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 22-26 (14.9 - 17.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+6 4 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 78-92 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 4 Atk Slowking Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Surskit: 59-69 (40.1 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

You can close this thread now.

oh the magical surskit, the lone gen 3 pokemon that resists ice/ground coverage

[Shaniqualela]

Sharpedo I'm going to have to deem as a check because of its lack of bulk:
4 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 54-64 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Slowking Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 180-214 (123.2 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However it can come in on Psychic, as we know.

But:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 194-230 (96 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 176-210 (87.1 - 103.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO


As for Crawdaunt:
Dragon Dance Spreads:
4 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 43-51 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 126 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 43-51 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

CB Spreads:
4 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 43-51 (25.2 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 43-51 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO
And for the sake of being redundant, focus punch does approximately 60-80% depending on spread, a 2hko in all cases when uninvested.

I would call Crawdaunt a counter, it's pretty solid if built correctly.
252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 194-230 (96 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 176-210 (87.1 - 103.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 132-156 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowking: 116-140 (57.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You forgot to give slowking +def nature brah

[DrCraig]

You forgot to give slowking +def nature brah

oh shit, i mustve had the nature on sassy

good looks shani

anyways they are mostly all 2hkos

Edited March 24, 2015 by DrCraig

[Artemiseta]

yes craig 2 hits some still have chance to oko

[DrCraig]

yes craig 2 hits some still have chance to oko

252+ Atk Choice Band Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 176-210 (87.1 - 103.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

Same ATK as Crawdaunt so everything else is a 2hko pretty much

[Robofiend]

I think that Slowking is 2gud for UU, here's why:

 

Curse and CM sets alike are really hard to shut down, even with Slowking's weaknesses. Phasers in UU are pretty rare, and most of the tier's bulkiest phasers (Blastoise, Donphan, Aggron, Steelix) are either weak to Water type attacks or lack reliable offense against Slowking. Some sets (like Curse) might be more reliably shut down by a water type with HP Electric, but can't be broken as easily by things like Sharpedo after a Curse (who seems pretty risky in a wall-filled environment like UU). Similarly, it might seem wise to send in a HP electric pokemon against Slowking to stop it from cursing, only to find that after a CM boost it's more or less unbreakable by non STAB attacks. 

 

So you decide to status it, which is great except for the fact that Chansey, Umbroen, Altaria and Vileplume are all common and reliable Clerics. Chansey and Umbreon's weakness to Fighting pairs well with Slowking's resistance, as does its ability to sponge Ice type attacks directed at Vileplume and Altaria. It's not as easy as OU Slowbro, where you either have to run Blissey and give up a lot of offense in order to have Heal-Bell - in UU there are a great variety of Clerics who can function alongside Slowbro and wall the few things that threaten it depending on its set. 

 

What we're left with is a pokemon that can wall and kill most of its counters with a turn of setup (yeah, I'll actually calc it sometime) or just provide awesome team support while chipping away at enemies with its solid movepool. It doesn't help that it's really easy to find partners who make up for Slowking's weaknesses given that UU has no Bug attacks to break through Chansey and Slowbro simultaneously.

 

I think this one's a no-brainer - ban.

[BurntZebra]

I think that Slowking is 2gud for UU, here's why:

 

Curse and CM sets alike are really hard to shut down, even with Slowking's weaknesses. Phasers in UU are pretty rare, and most of the tier's bulkiest phasers (Blastoise, Donphan, Aggron, Steelix) are either weak to Water type attacks or lack reliable offense against Slowking. Some sets (like Curse) might be more reliably shut down by a water type with HP Electric, but can't be broken as easily by things like Sharpedo after a Curse (who seems pretty risky in a wall-filled environment like UU). Similarly, it might seem wise to send in a HP electric pokemon against Slowking to stop it from cursing, only to find that after a CM boost it's more or less unbreakable by non STAB attacks. 

 

So you decide to status it, which is great except for the fact that Chansey, Umbroen, Altaria and Vileplume are all common and reliable Clerics. Chansey and Umbreon's weakness to Fighting pairs well with Slowking's resistance, as does its ability to sponge Ice type attacks directed at Vileplume and Altaria. It's not as easy as OU Slowbro, where you either have to run Blissey and give up a lot of offense in order to have Heal-Bell - in UU there are a great variety of Clerics who can function alongside Slowbro and wall the few things that threaten it depending on its set. 

 

What we're left with is a pokemon that can wall and kill most of its counters with a turn of setup (yeah, I'll actually calc it sometime) or just provide awesome team support while chipping away at enemies with its solid movepool. It doesn't help that it's really easy to find partners who make up for Slowking's weaknesses given that UU has no Bug attacks to break through Chansey and Slowbro simultaneously.

 

I think this one's a no-brainer - ban.

Well I'm no expert but I didn't think team synergy was ban worthy. It was talked about in the vileplume/blastoise threads before, each pokemon as a whole was breakable, but when paired with the appropriate team mates, the core was difficult to break. Imo only a pokemon that is unstoppable on its own should be ban worthy, not whether or not a pokemon is OP when combined with other elements on a team.

[DrCraig]

Well I'm no expert but I didn't think team synergy was ban worthy. It was talked about in the vileplume/blastoise threads before, each pokemon as a whole was breakable, but when paired with the appropriate team mates, the core was difficult to break. Imo only a pokemon that is unstoppable on its own should be ban worthy, not whether or not a pokemon is OP when combined with other elements on a team.

I think its mostly addressing the fact that status as counter is pretty weightless in discussion. Similarly to how it was deemed pretty meaningless for the Bro discussion.

Robo, if I'm reading correctly, is pointing out that aside from Slowking's outstanding offensive/defensive abilities, its status issue is relatively easy to solve due to its typing. Status should not have be weighed too heavy and I'm pretty sure he's getting that across. Not like he said "Ummm it works well with umbreon so its OP" ya know?

Edited March 24, 2015 by DrCraig

[BurntZebra]

I think its mostly addressing the fact that status as counter is pretty weightless in discussion. Similarly to how it was deemed pretty meaningless for the Bro discussion.

Robo, if I'm reading correctly, is pointing out that aside from Slowking's outstanding offensive/defensive abilities, its status issue is relatively easy to solve due to its typing. Status should not have be weighed too heavy and I'm pretty sure he's getting that across. Not like he said "Ummm it works well with umbreon so its OP" ya know?

If slowking was natural cure or something, yeah I would agree that you can dismiss status as being a counter, as it can just switch out to cure the status, but alas it is not natural cure and relies on another pokemon to heal it of its status. 

[OldKeith]

I think that Slowking is 2gud for UU, here's why:

 

Curse and CM sets alike are really hard to shut down, even with Slowking's weaknesses. Phasers in UU are pretty rare, and most of the tier's bulkiest phasers (Blastoise, Donphan, Aggron, Steelix) are either weak to Water type attacks or lack reliable offense against Slowking. Some sets (like Curse) might be more reliably shut down by a water type with HP Electric, but can't be broken as easily by things like Sharpedo after a Curse (who seems pretty risky in a wall-filled environment like UU). Similarly, it might seem wise to send in a HP electric pokemon against Slowking to stop it from cursing, only to find that after a CM boost it's more or less unbreakable by non STAB attacks. 

 

So you decide to status it, which is great except for the fact that Chansey, Umbroen, Altaria and Vileplume are all common and reliable Clerics. Chansey and Umbreon's weakness to Fighting pairs well with Slowking's resistance, as does its ability to sponge Ice type attacks directed at Vileplume and Altaria. It's not as easy as OU Slowbro, where you either have to run Blissey and give up a lot of offense in order to have Heal-Bell - in UU there are a great variety of Clerics who can function alongside Slowbro and wall the few things that threaten it depending on its set. 

 

What we're left with is a pokemon that can wall and kill most of its counters with a turn of setup (yeah, I'll actually calc it sometime) or just provide awesome team support while chipping away at enemies with its solid movepool. It doesn't help that it's really easy to find partners who make up for Slowking's weaknesses given that UU has no Bug attacks to break through Chansey and Slowbro simultaneously.

 

I think this one's a no-brainer - ban.

 

As Zebra mentioned earlier, Toxic is very common in UU and it eventually forces Slowking out. While a cleric goes to heal it, this offensive-oriented tier offers the possibility of setup, a lot of options - dragon dance, swords dance, bulk up. I don't think Slowking is banworthy at all. Whether it choses curse or calm mind definitely adds to the element of surprise, but you can take advantage of that and attack its defense or special defense, depending on what is more appropriate.

Or just outright toxic stall it.

[Robofiend]

Well I'm no expert but I didn't think team synergy was ban worthy. It was talked about in the vileplume/blastoise threads before, each pokemon as a whole was breakable, but when paired with the appropriate team mates, the core was difficult to break. Imo only a pokemon that is unstoppable on its own should be ban worthy, not whether or not a pokemon is OP when combined with other elements on a team.

 

I'm not saying it's banworthy because of team synergy, but rather that the natural conditions in the tier allow it to work really well. Nonetheless, you're right that it's not fair to offload all of this strength on Slowking - it's not his fault that UU has such good clerics to help make up for his few downsides.

 

That said, my point about status was meant to be an addend to the fact that Slowking's sets are otherwise hard to stop and even an "ace in the hole" like Toxic isn't guaranteed to work: Slowking can run Rest, after all, negating some of the need for solid team synergy. 

 

Also consider my point (which I brought up in the OU Slowbro thread) - if you're forced to run a move that is pretty useless outside of dealing with Slowking, that says something about how centralizing it is. Honestly, most of the times I try to Toxic something in a UU match Steelix or Vileplume just comes in and snatches that free turn like it's nobody's business. It's kind of similar to phasing: yeah, you forced it out, but did you really stop it from sweeping if it can come back and set up (easily) again?

 

Lastly, Craig summed up my position pretty well. Good job, Craig.

[OldKeith]

I'm not saying it's banworthy because of team synergy, but rather that the natural conditions in the tier allow it to work really well. Nonetheless, you're right that it's not fair to offload all of this strength on Slowking - it's not his fault that UU has such good clerics to help make up for his few downsides.

 

That said, my point about status was meant to be an addend to the fact that Slowking's sets are otherwise hard to stop and even an "ace in the hole" like Toxic isn't guaranteed to work: Slowking can run Rest, after all, negating some of the need for solid team synergy. 

 

Also consider my point (which I brought up in the OU Slowbro thread) - if you're forced to run a move that is pretty useless outside of dealing with Slowking, that says something about how centralizing it is. Honestly, most of the times I try to Toxic something in a UU match Steelix or Vileplume just comes in and snatches that free turn like it's nobody's business. It's kind of similar to phasing: yeah, you forced it out, but did you really stop it from sweeping if it can come back and set up (easily) again?

 

Lastly, Craig summed up my position pretty well. Good job, Craig.

 

Do you even play the game, ever? What UU do you watch? A lot of pokemon carry Toxic, it is one of the best and most efficient ways to deal with setup. And rest Slowking will just get 2hko'd by a sweeper coming in and setting up a swords dance. A slowking without Slack Off is not really threatening to a solid team. Even suggesting Slowking is banworthy is ridiculous. A lot of things can run calm mind or curse, why would they not be banworhy too?

[DrCraig]

Lastly, Craig summed up my position pretty well. Good job, Craig.

Thanks Dad.