Senile Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 So I put these together because, you know, they're currently being suspected together. Not much to discuss at the moment since the test started yesterday, but once there is a tournament or two, this is where we'll talk about egg girl and lard boy. Keep discussion focused on how the metagame is affected by the removal of Snorlax/Blissey; Top threats, pokemon which replaced the two suspect pokemon, and any other more general changes in regards to the metagame. Discuss. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Gengar is pretty devastating as expected. Sludge bomb poison is enough to prevent umbreon from doing much to gengar as umbreon is in a pretty much never ending healing cycle trying to heal up as gengar fires away sludge bombs and poison damage. The only things that can take shadow ball and sludge bomb are steel types and none of their special defenses are that great, meaning they are either worn down by shadow ball/will o wisp/hp fire. Not to mention none of the steel types can really hurt gengar besides magneton because of will o wisp. Obviously things could change to some extent since my observations were only from a few vermilion battles I did, but if things remain somewhat similar to what I experienced in those few battles, I would advocate for a quick ban on gengar, assuming the snorlax and blissey bans went through after the 1 month test. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 I'd say we give it a week or something - things like Scizor are still really underhyped, and if Gengar uses Will-O-Wisp it's going to A) lose coverage and B) set itself up to get sync burned by Umbreon. Nonetheless, pretty scary poke most of the time. Personally I'm more in favor of quickbanning Kingdra because Water types like Vaporeon are so unviable (and can't really do much in the way of damaging Kingdra). I feel like there are combos that can deal with something like Gengar but no so much for Kingdra, who basically requires a team slot to effectively counter. I guess there's Ludi, but again it doesn't have a lot of options for chipping away at Kingdra. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I'd say we give it a week or something - things like Scizor are still really underhyped, and if Gengar uses Will-O-Wisp it's going to A) lose coverage and B) set itself up to get sync burned by Umbreon. Nonetheless, pretty scary poke most of the time. Personally I'm more in favor of quickbanning Kingdra because Water types like Vaporeon are so unviable (and can't really do much in the way of damaging Kingdra). I feel like there are combos that can deal with something like Gengar but no so much for Kingdra, who basically requires a team slot to effectively counter. I guess there's Ludi, but again it doesn't have a lot of options for chipping away at Kingdra. It's not like gengar needs 4 coverage moves to hit everything, people even run taunt will o wisp sludge bomb pain split just because nothing can take stab sludge bomb and take a will o wisp/get taunted. I just don't see kingdra that banworthy. Ludicolo is on a ton of teams and 4hkos kingdra with giga drain, or can leech seed+protect stall it as well. Calm mind slowbro sets up on kingdra as well. Vaporeon has ice beam/hp electric/toxic to hurt kingdra, while kingdra basically has hp electric to "hurt" vaporeon. 252+ SpA Kingdra Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 74-88 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery Rain dance kingdra usually doesn't have rest, or it loses coverage for something, either case vaporeon beats it. Kingdra also has a hard time getting into play because of the slight shift of the meta. It can't really switch in on the offense less walls like umbreon because a) they will toxic kingdra and b ) kingdra can't really break them. It can't come in vs the bulky physical attackers like swampert/metagross/heracross/ursaring because they mostly outspeed kingdra out of rain and will either ohko or 2hko. Special attackers don't leave much room for kingdra either, as starmie has recover to stall out rain and jolteon has a chance at 2hko'ing kingdra, depending on exact ev spread of kingdra, and does not get ko'ed by surf in rain either. Dragon dance kingdra *shouldn't* really be that different from the previous meta since it already beat snorlax and blissey. The same physical attackers I mentioned before can take on dragon dance kingdra as well, a bit worse though because of that waterfall flinch. Slowbro and ludicolo still beat it, vaporeon doesn't do that great as dragon dance kingdra almost always runs resto chesto so vaporeon has little to no chance at beating kingdra. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Alright fine, I give you the Kingdra point, although it brings up an interesting problem: it's starting to seem like Umbreon's undeniably the best special wall (except for the possibility of getting killed by Espeon) - it kills pretty much all of the common sweepers, but it takes a lot of time/effort compared to Blissey or Snorlax. I suppose that regardless of all that, it'd be hard for Umbreon to actually be unhealthy because of how well its counters abuse its limited movepool. However, 252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 88-105 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery Even with Taunt, Gengar's going to need to deal with: 0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 50-60 (37.3 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery If Gengar opts to invest in more bulk and/or run WoW it will either be limiting its offensive presence (and risk its WoW's just getting cured by an enemy Umbreon) or setting itself up to get picked off by other sweepers like Jolteon, who can now run Shadow Ball with fewer consequences and threaten physically bulky Gengar. Also, consider how much coverage you're losing with Wisp+Taunt Gengar - you're either forced to run Shadow Ball/Sludge and still get walled by Steel types (who can fight back even with Status) or Shadow Ball+Tbolt and be total bait for Houndoom (who in NU right now but could become more popular) or Sludge+Tbolt and lack coverage on other Gengar be or unable to hurt Magneton - who is also harder to deal with if you're using Umbreon. TL;DR - Gengar will be really good but I think we should wait on a quickban - there are a lot of possibilities at this point and if Gengar is actually 2stronk we'll know in a week or two. Link to comment
Senile Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 Alright fine, I give you the Kingdra point, although it brings up an interesting problem: it's starting to seem like Umbreon's undeniably the best special wall (except for the possibility of getting killed by Espeon) - it kills pretty much all of the common sweepers, but it takes a lot of time/effort compared to Blissey or Snorlax. I suppose that regardless of all that, it'd be hard for Umbreon to actually be unhealthy because of how well its counters abuse its limited movepool. However, 252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 88-105 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery Even with Taunt, Gengar's going to need to deal with: 0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 50-60 (37.3 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery If Gengar opts to invest in more bulk and/or run WoW it will either be limiting its offensive presence (and risk its WoW's just getting cured by an enemy Umbreon) or setting itself up to get picked off by other sweepers like Jolteon, who can now run Shadow Ball with fewer consequences and threaten physically bulky Gengar. Also, consider how much coverage you're losing with Wisp+Taunt Gengar - you're either forced to run Shadow Ball/Sludge and still get walled by Steel types (who can fight back even with Status) or Shadow Ball+Tbolt and be total bait for Houndoom (who in NU right now but could become more popular) or Sludge+Tbolt and lack coverage on other Gengar be or unable to hurt Magneton - who is also harder to deal with if you're using Umbreon. TL;DR - Gengar will be really good but I think we should wait on a quickban - there are a lot of possibilities at this point and if Gengar is actually 2stronk we'll know in a week or two. I don't understand why you seem to think Will-O-Wisp is this terrible move and Gengar doesn't want to run it, the move's good. Okay, it "limits it's offensive presence", but Wisp alone is a deterrent to any bulky physical attackers trying to revenge a Gengar behind a sub, or even just trying to pick off a weakened one. I'd also like to point out that Pursuit does little enough damage that once Umbreon is burned, it can't break through a Gengar substitute: 0 Atk burned Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 26-32 (19.2 - 23.7%) -- possible 5HKO SubLumFocusPunchWill-o-Wisp Gengar set master race confirmed? Probably not, but Umbreon is seriously forced, at least in my opinion, to make some serious decisions regarding it's (limited) moveset. What do you run? Pursuit is pretty much mandatory in this meta, otherwise you're just gonna get eventually picked off without having done anything to the special sweepers. Then you need a healing move; Either the Wish+Protect set or Moonlight, but with Moonlight you lose wishpassing (which is one of the few things that an Umbreon can do once it comes in that actually punishes you for letting it come in), along with Protect utility to scout out Choice Banders or supporting Toxic, if you run it. So, it's safe to say Wish+Protect is almost mandatory, whereas Pursuit is mandatory. Then for your last slot, you have solid competition. Toxic to be able to beat things other than shit like Gengar/Alakazam/Starmie and make you not setup bait to literally everything as opposed to almost everything, Heal Bell for the obvious cleric support and getting rid of Gengar burns or stray Toxics, hell, you could even make an argument for running Taunt to help deal with the setup problem. Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. If you don't run Heal Bell, you're really weak to Toxic/Wisp, as Toxic basically forces you out before you just die, and Wisp turns your only real source of damage and trapping move into kind of a joke. If you don't run Toxic, you basically can't do anything other than Wishpass and spook away a few special attackers while pursuiting them, and become even more setup bait than usual. If you don't run Pursuit, you're useless. If you run Moonlight over Wish+Protect, you can't Wishpass anymore, so I don't really care if your Umbreon comes in as long as I can avoid the pursuit; Your Umbreon isn't going to accomplish anything that can actually harm my chances at winning anyway at that point, so I really couldn't care less. There's also sets like Reflect Espeon which give approximately 0 fucks about your Pursuit. 0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon through Reflect: 26-32 (18.5 - 22.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery Or alternatively, if Reflect isn't your thing, just invest in HP: 0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 50-60 (29 - 34.8%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery Morning Sun + Calm Mind just let you ignore Umbreon until you're pretty well setup. The only real exception to this is if it's running Toxic and you don't have any way of dealing with it, but even in the worst case scenario, if it's running Toxic then a majority of the time it isn't also running Heal Bell, the Toxic gets synchronized, and Umbreon cries. (Unless they have a different Heal Bell/Aromatherapy pokemon, but if they're running Umbreon, what else would they run that has one of those moves?); Although, you really shouldn't be letting your Espeon get toxic'd regardless, but even if it does, it's not the end of the world. Honestly, Umbreon isn't that good. It's 4 moveslots are a serious issue, and whatever move it skips out on seriously hurts it, especially once your opponent figures out what it is. The main problem for it, IMO, is that it can't really run Toxic + Pursuit on the same set without seriously weakening itself and crippling it's utility. This basically means that while it wants to pursuit trap special attackers, it can't necessarily scare them out in order to do so. If it doesn't run Heal Bell and gets toxic'd, pokemon like Starmie or Espeon can just spam Recover/Morning Sun until Umbreon has no choice but to switch out or die, or if it gets burned certain pokemon (cough Gengar) can just completely fuck it up. However, if it doesn't run Toxic, a lot of pokemon, particularly recovery move + Calm Mind variants, don't really care about a 40 BP STAB Pursuit. They'll just setup on Umbreon, and by the time the Umbreon user realizes the shit they're in, they're staring down a +2 threat. tl;dr: umbreon's like okay i guess lol. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
OldKeith Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Damn, Umbreon will become OU. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 lol @ the unofficials being hosted atm not even banning snorlax and blissey (PSL and Captain's World Tournament) Link to comment
Noad Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Well it makes sense to me to be honest, World Tournament only has the finals left so I dont know if it makes much sense not allowing them because all of the players who have a place in the finals used Blissey and Lax in the qualifiers. PSL has always usually followed bans the week after they happened for sake of preparation ect. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I agree on the world tournament I guess but the snorlax/bliss ban happened in week 6 of psl and its not banned for weeks 7. Oh nevermind I thought the administrative thread said they weren't banned for 8-9 as well, thought it was a bit ridiculous to ignore a ban for 3 weeks, but don't really see a point in not doing it in week 7. Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 (edited) I agree on the world tournament I guess but the snorlax/bliss ban happened in week 6 of psl and its not banned for weeks 7. Oh nevermind I thought the administrative thread said they weren't banned for 8-9 as well, thought it was a bit ridiculous to ignore a ban for 3 weeks, but don't really see a point in not doing it in week 7. They were banned like the last day of the PSL week 6, so I gave it a few more days. Edited June 16, 2015 by ThinkNice Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 They were banned like the last day of the PSL week 6, so I gave it a few more days. Was banned June 12, the friday of week 6, so not exactly the last day, but whatever it doesn't really matter that much. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Noad do you have usage for the oceanic tournament? Link to comment
Noad Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Noad do you have usage for the oceanic tournament? Just for you K-Dog ThinkNice 1 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Just for you K-Dog its with 2 G's :( Well it looks like not everyone is running the same special walls now. Ludicolo, venusaur, umbreon, and porygon are all below 30% usage. Only like 3 special sweepers in the top 20 used pokemon (gengar, jolteon, and espeon). Usage looks a tiny bit healthier imo, although gengar is pretty high, which results in metagross and arcanine being used a lot to counter gengar. Link to comment
Senile Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 its with 2 G's :( Well it looks like not everyone is running the same special walls now. Ludicolo, venusaur, umbreon, and porygon are all below 30% usage. Only like 3 special sweepers in the top 20 used pokemon (gengar, jolteon, and espeon). Usage looks a tiny bit healthier imo, although gengar is pretty high, which results in metagross and arcanine being used a lot to counter gengar. To be fair, Gengar usage isn't much higher than before. It's just that before, Gengar was incredibly strong and versatile enough to fit on most teams, which gave him insane usage. Now, he's still incredibly strong and versatile enough to fit on most teams, only he's stronger now to the point of being potentially banworthy. So, his usage hasn't really changed much, but he has gotten stronger; Of course, when a pokemon is already versatile enough that it's on most teams, making it more powerful won't significantly impact it's usage, so the lack of change is to be expected. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Wow, stronk usage stat, as expected. I dunno if we should ban yet, but it looks like Gengar might be the tipping point for making the metagame too focused on special offense. It seems to be that people are using "one-time" checks/counters to stop it instead of walls (which would be cool, usually) but all of them get rekt by a bad prediction. Metagross can't deal with Shadow Ball, Arcanine can't deal with Sludge Bomb, and Jolteon's a risky way to attempt to absorb a Tbolt. I'd say we wait til we have usage from an official for Euro/US players to start seriously consider banning it, though. Link to comment
Senile Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 So, there's been like no OU tournaments since the ban, and we're quite a ways in. We should probably give serious consideration now to extending the test time. Thoughts? ThinkNice 1 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Yeah a time extension will probably be needed unless there are a lot of OU tournaments posted very soon which is unlikely. So far there's been one ou tournament that didn't have 32 players and the team tournament which is essentially a 16 player ou tournament Link to comment
Noad Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Would anyone object to changing the length of suspect tests from actual time to number of tournaments? E,g, Snorlax and Blissey will be banned for 6 standard OU tournaments. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I think we discussed it previously in the first snorlax pm discussion. I was fine with it since realistically, its the OU officials that matter in the decisions for the OU tier, not day to day vermilion battles. Link to comment
NikhilR Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Would anyone object to changing the length of suspect tests from actual time to number of tournaments? E,g, Snorlax and Blissey will be banned for 6 standard OU tournaments. If these 6 tournaments could somehow be conducted within two weeks, then that'd be cool. Link to comment
Senile Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Would anyone object to changing the length of suspect tests from actual time to number of tournaments? E,g, Snorlax and Blissey will be banned for 6 standard OU tournaments. Sure. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Sure. Is that an objection? Link to comment
Senile Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Is that an objection? uhhh, no? Is this a trick question? Link to comment
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