YagamiNoir

Well, it's 16 PP max, it can't do it forever, annoying as it is to stall for so many turns and stuff. It depends if it is forced to Milk Drink or not, I guess, but undesirably you're not gonna do that when it's already having multiple boosts, nor does a super buffed Miltank actually need to use it a lot apart from Special Attacks, I guess. I personally think that pressure seems pretty relevant on the special side until eventually runs out of it, I may be wrong. Successful Curse sweeps are significantly crippled if not literally unable to put into practise, as a better term for it being "done for". Unless that Toxic is healed, Miltank cannot pull off a Curse sweep, and then this go back to our statements, and the like. I don't exactly think there is a line in which Fire Punch or Heal Bell is better because they're meant for different things; I'd debatably even say clearing yourself and teammates of status is probably better than the ability to hit Scizor and sting Steel types to some extent, but okay.

Nothing should be actually wrong when using phazing in an effort to counter a setup Pokemon. I mean, that's what the moves themselves are supposed to do; we might as well remove the word phazing if it's not relevant, because "huh, I don't care if you delay me, I can just do it again later". I personally think this is pretty underrated, given it is probably one of the safest responses to prevent it from getting out of hand before you decide how you should take it down with something else later, you plan for matches and you should be able to halt something like this if you want to buy your team some momentum. That's how phazing works. It doesn't stop the problem, but it does buy time for you to plan how you should stop it and stops it from immediately getting out of hand. I wouldn't call Miltank's Special Defense really good to work with; like, I get 95/75 is good and all, but not to the point where it can sponge every Special Attack thrown at it reliably compared to other special walls in UU. It's also notable that Bulk Up doesn't exactly reduce Speed, whereas Miltank is then prone to revenge killing whereas Hitmontop and Poliwrath can still outspeed a bit of stuff, or Mach Punch or the former, I suppose it depends. It's unfair that you assume the whole prone to revenge killing argument applying it on those two rather than Miltank especially if you consider they take damage beforehand. Anything can be really centralizing with support, and "support" should not be applied on only the banworthy things, but also the support to counter it; nothing exactly justifies that your cleric survives longer than the Toxic user or vice versa, unless Miltank itself is using it. Again, I doubt Miltank can actually really set up on a lot in the tier, it's just that when it does, you'll struggle a tad bit to take it down, but it's probably not the whole Scizor/Zangoose-ish kind of tier when it comes to setup.

In regards to the whole "Ghost types are easily" shrekt thing, as much as this synergy seems relevant, I'd like to point out that Fighting types deal with both Miltank and Pursuit users fairly effectively, especially in synergy with a Ghost type; well, the ones that are Dark types, at least. (And Destiny Bond a Choice Band Mach Punch Houndoom, try your luck). It's probably a prediction matter, but I believe such similarities have their relevance. Now for some counter listing. Altaria can Roar/Haze it while healing off status with Natural Cure. Personally, I do believe that stuff like Armaldo don't really mind setting up alongside Miltank. Similar scenarios go for stuff like Steelix with Curse (if not phazing it) or Bulk Up Hitmontop/Poliwrath, although I suppose it may bail down to a whole crit war and whatever, so I suppose it's viability is debatable. Opting for Heal Bell and Milk Drink skips a moveslot meaning that a lot of things shouldn't be as threatened by it's offensive coverage before responding. Misdreavus and Haunter also get Taunt, which completely ruins mono-attacking Miltanks, the latter also having Will-O-Wisp, and both have Pain Split just in case Fire Punch is put into the equation. By then, it's forced to either run Rest or be vulnerable to Toxic, so the moveslot syndrome is also a fairly relevant Achilles' heel. Should it lack Fire Punch (and while it is still under discussion) more defensive variants of setup Scizors also prove effective. Pardon me if this is kinda odd, but I'd compare Miltank to something like Curselax. Generally, though, I don't exactly see Miltank as kind of a UU Curselax kinda thing; it sufffers from 4MSS more severely than Snorlax because it doesn't have the comparable innate bulk to make those two turns less impacted as one would think it'd be if it decides to run Rest; by running both Heal Bell and Milk Drink, it's low coverage means a lot of things are able to respond to it and phaze it away or setup alongside it. Paralysis is perhaps a noteworthy issue, especially considering Miltank can fish for para first before setting up, but I'm not exactly convinced that it's a super big issue. Miltank also doesn't have the ability, like Snorlax, to run tons of other viable sets as effectively as Snorlax can, as much as there are alternative options. I'd also argue that Miltank doesn't exactly respond to a lot of Pokemon effectively enough to set up, I may be wrong -- I just peeked at statistics and thought that it didn't have a lot it could come in and set it up on, nor is it something that instantaneously gets an unhealthily rewarding advantage as it picks up one Curse if it gets an opportunity.

The only thing I can exactly say is that only with practical evidence throughout this ban month will we actually be clear on an answer; that is the impact that of which affects the meta more unhealthy, the absence of Snorlax or it's presence overall. I'm not sure how easily this change will actually adapt given that the degree of which teams needs to diversify can be considerably slow, so it may or may not need an extension.

Do I translate this in Japanese and Chinese Or sugarcoat your original English one

Pardon the inactivity. I appreciate the feedback given and will proceed to add in sets in accord. Not exactly. There isn't exactly an established line between UU and NU for the moment, so while I should include a lot of stuff in, I'm putting it most of the useful stuff.

Double-Edge still hits harder than Crunch depending if you run it or not. This is targeted toward the aspect that some Pokemon centralize a moveslot dedicated for that Pokemon say Hidden Power Grass for Swampert or Hidden Power Electric for Gyarados; in reference to Robo's statement, Pursuit has it's other uses, but you're usually only going to hit a Gengar with it. It's not a bad thing that something with a dominant presence centralizes things to use a specific move for it, especially one that is fairly common in a tier. Nik, don't go on telling me about how you can support a Pokemon in other discussions but point out that the support I can give to something else is irrelevant just for the sake of your argument. I can say the exact same things to how risky it is for Scizor or whatever to pick up a boost and the like. No, it is not necessarily inferior, and this is taking it from the standpoint of Fire Punch, which admittedly is less distributed over options like Flamethrower or Fire Blast, and maybe even Overheat. Taking note that Scizor, as a defensive pivot switch, also commonly takes damage, maybe up to the point where Fire Punch can KO it. Besides, if you're going to assume the OHKO on Superpower versus these Normal types that are "forbidden" to run Choice Band, I could always Sub on your Superpower and exploit the -1 to kill you. It's odd how you nitpick a Rock Slide flinch chance but say the the chance that Steel Wing boosts Defense is reliable. That being said, even if you "just phaze it"or whatever it is, Steelix can still phaze it away while taking minimal damage in comparison to other set up sweepers that are phazed. I personally find Superpower but prevalent which makes Steelix pretty iffy to begin with, but be that as it may. Neither of them take a hit from Megahorn well. Well, justify them -- Scizor has a more reliable typing, but I'd be damned if you're going to tell me that Scizor's offensive capabilities are on par with Rhydon's. Like I said, it doesn't have to -- Rhydon either rekted things on the spot with Choice Band, and again a Rhydon behind a Sub is very rewarding even without Swords Dance. Scizor can't be complained to be broken with a Choice Band, nor does it have the default power that scares things from coming in, like I've said previously. Yes, Rhydon is far more easily revenge killed than Scizor, but it's offensive power scares the oblivion out of most of anything that wants to switch in on it, unlike Scizor that still has a fair about of things that can handle it. I've supplied some calcs initially in the thread. I was reffering to the former. Again, you like to twist things to be convenient for your argument because "only the most advantageous situations I support can happen and are more likely to happen" or "I always get the right predictions". Likewise, the player can predict between the use of either an attacking move and Swords Dance and respond accordingly. I'd request you not to put prediction as a really relevant argument in a theoretical discussion, or anyone for that matter, since it is not dictated on a clear basis and is dependent on factors like skill and luck. Both players can predict well, but what justifies you always get the right predictions? Pardon the mild ad hominem, but discussions between us very frequently, if not always, involve this. Comparing Scizor against Salamence and the others is a bad comparison anyway, given that they are far harder to revenge kill than a Scizor, and are only really checked by things that can take one hit and OHKO it back, and some things that do are straight out killed by Choice Band variants, whereas a Scizor running a Choice Band set is fairly medicore at best in comparison to it's other sets. I'm pretty sure the fact that you centralize on "setting up" speaks for itself. I don't see how hard it is to put a Fire type move on your team that doesn't need to be Fire Punch. I'm sighing at the fact that you want the whole "valid counter" thing again -- anything that doesn't have an appropriate amount of fixed counters should be gone, that's what your mentality has always been, unwilling to go into the acceptance of a more fast-paced meta that relies on checks and how plays are more rewarding than ever instead of the sequences proceeding robotically. The fact that how "every Pokemon is set up bait by it" is probably an exaggerative definition for Scizor. You're neglecting the fact that you've brought out the fact that Scizor can switch out after taking one Fire Punch, and presumably come back in with no risk and get free recovery off, which is false. I'm not sure what you're assuming here, but an unboosted Adamant Scizor can't 2HKO a 252/0 Vileplume with Steel Wing to begin with. It's also odd how all of your Fire type attacks don't include the words Fire Blast, Flamethrower or Overheat, that is presumably exclusive to Slowking.

Snorlax doesn't exactly need Pursuit to deal with all of them effectively, similarly as to your mention as to how Normal types have no reason to run Fire Punch when your Normal type STAB does more. Fire Punch also allows you to hit Ghost types -- although you could call me ridiculous because "everyone runs Crunch, and the like". Is there a particular reason why Fire Punch is suddenly the only existing move in UU that is x4 effective against Scizor? I wonder where Flamethrower and Fire Blast went. There's also something called Sun support, although rare as it is. Sun support also makes Fire Punch a tad bit more powerful than Earthquake. Also, it's odd how Choice Band is forbidden from the equation. Oh, okay, can you please demonstrate to me how Scizor gets access to Steel Wing, Return, Swords Dance, Iron Defense and Morning Sun all at the same time? Comparing Rhydon and Scizor is a pretty bad example, personally. Getting up a Sub on Rhydon was very rewarding, and Rhydon had the default power to shrekt things without having to set up anyway, even if it didn't have a Choice Band. Saying that Rhydon needs a Swords Dance to hit hard is a stretch. Scizor on the other hand, while having the same Attack stat, has less coverage and loses in terms of the BP of it's moves, and you can't complain that a Scizor without an Attack boost is difficult to fare against. Scizor doesn't exactly kill anything by default, whereas revenge killers against Rhydon need safe switches usually at the risk of it setting up a Sub first or shrekting you on the spot with good prediction. You could argue that people run to outspeed it, but Rhydon can also flinch slower threats if it runs Rock Slide, or break Subs with Rock Blast. Unlike Scizor, Charizard, Linoone and whatever faster sweeper are very difficult to revenge kill in terms of Speed. In Linoone's case, everything else that doesn't resist ExtremeSpeed is slower than Linoone, having 75% health with +6 Attack, and the whole priority factor. Charizard on the other hand hits 100 Speed and while there are faster things Sub/Salac relieves that problem to some extent. It still outspeeds a lot in the meta anyway. If Scizor gets met by something with a Fire type move the instant it uses Swords Dance it's forced to switch out, and is outsped by a fair variety of Pokemon to be forced to, and has no default really super threatening offense before it sets up a Swords Dance that exactly threatens frailer switch ins enough.

I'll reply to this, but I'd preferably end it here. You're entitled to your opinion, but none of this is accomplishing everything. Saying that Destiny Bond forces you to sack your boosts is.....pretty odd. Sure, you can't kill Gengar, but it doesn't mean you can't do someone else but attack it until it wastes all it's Destiny Bonds, and it will have to consistently use DBond to maintain the threat of the Pokemon not OHKOing it, a factor which is pretty exploitable. Unless, of course, you factor Taunt into the equation, which makes for a possible prediction of something faster coming in. Again, all this comes with your mentality of refusal of accepting risks in a Pokemon and metagame, something I do not wish to proceed too further upon giving how heavily conflicted our eyes are on this matter. And are you saying it's impossible for something with low offensive presence to switch in on Destiny Bond meant for something else? Snorlax doesn't necessarily have to switch out from Destiny Bond -- Whirlwind variants can push it away Taunt aside whereas Curse variants can just expend between Curse and Rest to stall it out, again Taunt aside. The Destiny Bond user can put an opponent into a mental debate, but it cannot do so consistency well, and I've answered your questioning of your third paragraph in these two paragraphs I have. Enough, though. Not as a matter of, well, egocentric-ness, but you know this isn't going anywhere.

The main advocating of this thread sounds more like a misplaced bias towards Destiny Bond rather than Gengar and then the setup of a concrete wall, insult topped, against those who disagree with it. Oh, default anger, I wonder what that possibly entails. Did I mention how well it's also seasoned with irony, and centralized around a flat ban when one Pokemon is solely being justified for it's presumably uncompetitive use? Bluntly, it's not something to be taken really seriously. ..Since when did Destiny Bond become a trapping move? Okay, let's face it, it puts you in a "either we die together or I cripple something else or sometimes kill something" situation. It's a matter of risk and chance, and for some reason, people now dislike fast paced and metagames where risk is present. I know how Raaidn and you are literal advocates of no risk metas "We're not supposed to think before we act", when that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's speculatively a really unhealthy mentality to have, but eh, the devil take me if this actually gets anywhere. Speed is a not a factor in dealing with this in the first place, good luck getting Destiny Bond off something that doesn't have a lot of offensive presence or something that primarily sets up like Snorlax, you won't threaten one of those with DBond at all. Taunt/Destiny Bond forces you to attack which does make it seem threatening, but not only is that two moves off Gengar, it also means it is fairly easy to come in and out to stall it Spikes aside. Like now it only has two moves, there are things that don't fear certain combinations. Funny how only Destiny Bond gets the more rewarding spectrum when it comes to predictions -- Destiny Bond isn't something that's reliably spammed, being it has low PP, only gives a passive threat more than a direct one more than anything, takes up a moveslot, and only works in specific situations. Again, "just because it has risks it's uncompetitive, and it always gets the advantage". I really don't want to sass you, Nik, but reading this thread ironically gives me the urge to tear someone's limbs off. In all, the hate of this is evidently a result of misplaced anger.

One of the aspects I like to mess around with when it comes to Doubles is the aspect of coordination between two Pokemon that are simultaneously sent out on the field. As one of the more avid Doubles players during the second season of the PSL, I'd say it's easily my most excellent tier in the MMO (well, if not the only tier that I legitimately posses achievement in). The metagame is generally far more fast paced, given that there should really be no bans (so stuff like Tyranitar, Wobbufet and the like are used) and benefits from moves that would otherwise find little use in singles. Diverse aspects such as synergetic typing between two Pokemon sent out, and diverse strategies ranging from weather support, Dual Screen + setup, Encore setup or Perish Trapping, and a whole lot of others are things one needs to take account for moreso in doubles than in singles. There are Pokemon that have the perfect partner and can shrekt your team if you don't respond to it quick enough which generally makes offensive presence and threats instantaneous and immediate, especially with "Ubers" available; the common usage of Protect also kinda demonstrates how really harsh it gets. Generally, however, nothing is really centralizing in Doubles given how two Pokemon can screw up an opposing pair from both offensive and defensive spectrums. That being said, Doubles is a more challenging aspect for people who generally enjoy more thrill of the risk and fact-paced games where the outcome of a battle is easily dictated by one's plays moreso than in Singles, as well as one of the places where I personally as, well -- an unorthodox strategist, like to test my wits on since there are so many viable things you can do in Doubles moreso in Singles. I suppose it needs more revival.

My apologies having not touched this thread for such a long time -- IRL business has taken it's toll, although I'll bump this for slight additions I can manage now, particularly on Fearow/Flareon.

I'm not that good at this, but I hope this helps. Firstly, you should know that your team has a lack of adequate defense composition. Aerodactyl easily shreds your entire team to ribbons, for instance, and you can't exactly rely on Golduck to deal with it either. The best you have is probably Jumpluff to stall out Snorlax which takes pretty long -- it has a field day on you otherwise. As much as there are Pokemon in your team that can outspeed it in Sun, it's not exactly a reliable strategy against it. The team is also fairly weak against Gengar, although not a lot gets to counter it fully. A defensive Arcanine makes for a fairly rewarding Pokemon to take on the candidate of physical wall with, since the Sun support gives it a 2/3 healing off Morning Sun, a buff to it's Fire STAB for more damage, and reduced damage from Water type attacks. Ironically, if you're willing to run Psychic/Fire Blast or Flamethrower on Slowbro, it can also function fairly effectively as a physical wall, although most people favour Surf, and thusly makes it rather considerable. Steelix can also benefit from Sun support by nerfing Water attacks, although it also does make Fire type moves more powerful against it. A Fighting or Ground type powerful physical Attacker fits the team decently, especially the latter, given the Sun also nerfs Water type attacks. Machamp/Blaziken/Heracross/Rhydon/Flygon are but such options, some of them even able to utilize sun offensively if they run a Fire move, such as Flygon against Skarmory. If you're intending to run a physically orientated Sun Attacker, Shiftry would debatably be more rewarding. Victreebel's probably more effective sticking with a Special set with Weather Ball and Sludge Bomb, since it's physical options are pretty limited. A mixed set on Shiftry is also viable with notably Hidden Power Fire for Steel types. Remember the Dark STAB for stuff like Gengar as well. Is this centralized for doubles matches? Heat Wave shouldn't be an option in singles, instead going for Flamethrower/Fire Blast depending on what is favourable. Hope this was helpful.

If you're the only one that's going to complain about the metagame being broken instead of understanding the approach that is trying to be taken for it to be fixed with what we have and within reasonable boundary, you might as well stop posting in these threads and just go. If you don't like it and can't change it, what are you trying to prove? That and testing Snorlax isn't going to take an arm and a leg out of the meta -- well, it might, no one can be sure about that. But so what? It's only temporary. There's no harm done in testing it and see what goes on, and how the hell are we going to even know about the drawbacks other than presumptuous, theoretical discussion if this test isn't put to practise? You want evidence on the drawbacks? Well, let the test go on. EDIT: Cover before your dark lord page king.

100K on the Pineco?

Murkrow IVs and moveset?

Which, courtesy of Pursuit, does put it under support if it's decided to be banned, just like how one would ban Dugtrio by definition, due to their ability to remove otherwise problematic Pokemon unfailingly so that offensive teammates can very easily clean up later. That being said, stuff like Sneasel and Absol get Pursuit, but Houndoom's access to support and utility alongside its Speed means it can do more than just, well -- provide trap support. Destiny Bond in particular, Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical Pokemon, STAB Fire Attacks that scorch otherwise couragous Steels that wall Dark type moves, Super Fang, and here and there. EDIT: Before someone tackles me on how I think Dugtrio should be banned, I was merely making an example.

What needs to be said has already been said throughout the discussion. While I'm still unsure as to how relevant current, theoretical discussion of a non-Snorlax dominant metagame will appear to be, what we can be sure of is that we are in need of practical results. What is the line, though -- if I may ask -- in that Snorlax absence makes the meta unhealthy? (I know I'm taking this to future seeking but hey, it has it's relevance.) The fact that it makes Blissey a necessity instead of something that's too good not to use? The amount of bans it brings? How centralizing the loss of this special wall will resort the others to find alternatives? Considering we're putting things in a more open approach.

Ghost types wall it apart from Iron Tail and stuff so eh. Oh wait. Zigzagoon used Flighty Marsupial on Haunter/Misdreavus!(or practically anything) ....... Everything targeted by Flighty Marsupial fainted from excessive fail laughter! EDIT: What should I even name the play dead thing

Stick with VGC, pretty much. ORAS OU is....like, ORAS OU, and playing it too much on Showdown makes it seem kinda stale.

I'll give Noad a vote. Wasted my 2000th post on this, but eh.

I personally think Taunt is probably better at dealing with SubSeed and stopping other shenanigans it decides to pull off, although I suppose having a Sub also makes it immune to those things. Put Misdreavus into the list as well, I guess.

Fried noodles. The last thing you did before replying to this post?

Prediction into the equation I guess, although I suppose the risk is kinda big and the odds are in favour to Breloom. Although less likely, it's possible to predict the Sub. If this thing is to be banned it's probably under support, because insta-disable and I suppose nasty prediction games in between. EDIT: Oops, double post, did not mean to do that, pardon me.

I simply mentioned it as an option, I figured no one uses it anyways, although people shouldn't be disinclined to means that are effective but rarely used. I suppose it's a matter of viability.