OrangeManiac

Alright the whole question what we are talking about here: Offensive Uber Characteristics. Does Fearow sweep a significant portion of the metagame? Easily. We don't need to have 3 page arguments whether HP Ground is good or not to have on Aggron. What is relevant that most of Fearow's counters are there only for Fearow, at least I would argue this way. I think this is the main thing you should argue for one way or another in order to keep Fearow in the tier. Fearow's revenge killers are usually easy to counter or even hard counter: To name a few Pokemon Sneasel is hard countered by Blastoise and Hitmontop even to the extent of making the Pokemon borderline viable while as Crobat and Electrode just give offensively not that much pressure that you would need to go too far to counter these Pokemon. I personally think the big question is how much of the relevant metagame does Fearow sweep?

IGN OrangeManiac

IGN OrangeManiac

Couldn't the limit be like.. 1? Like keep it odd if you need to have it odd and make it even if you need to make it even. Edit: Honestly though, do you really need to drop an IV that low as under 5 anyways? Not like you're gonna do anything with that anyways.

What purpose does this kind of thing even serves? Like, seriously.

Crobat is in NU so I guess you could outspeed that but Electrode's speed also helps in case of Salac so investing speed on Electrode in general isn't a bad option. Signal Beam is a cool move, hits Grass super effectively and Shiftry + Cacturne 4x. Last move prolly is Light Screen / Rain Dance for either overall screen support or helping a team mate in Rain team to start sweeping. Both of those are a bit unreliable things to do since Exploding is very risky move due to viable Rock and Ghost types in NU tier. Hidden Power Grass is definitely something really good to have if you get it.

IGN OrangeManiac

Don't worry Daft I can do this.

Oh yeah and special shoutout to xLuciela from our PokéManiacs from making it to semifinals in literally in her first tournament ever.

Congrats for DoubleJ for winning and xilias for coming second in this quite spontaneous NU tournament. I have to thank everyone for amazing turn out of 28 players. 'Till next time! Bracket: http://challonge.com/potato17

Prize buffed to 300k + comp Lickitung. 2nd place prize added: TM 30 and 35 + 50k - in courtesy of CaptainGrey!

Important note: Noad will be taking usage from this tournament. This means I will not start the tournament until I have minimum of 16 players on the bracket. Also before starting every match Noad must give the permission so she can take the usage. Thank you.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaat the real self-proclaimed NU god is back?

Details: 6v6 NU Tournament Tournament Mode 32 man (haha good joke) Date + Time: Date: Today Time: 4:00 PM EDT | 8:00 PM GMT Registration: Starts now in this thread. Location: Silph Co, Channel 7 Clauses: Sleep/OHKO/Species/OP Item/Evasion/Self KO List of Clauses and what they mean Banned Moves: Baton Pass Banned Pokemon: Every Ubers, OU/BL and UU/BL2 Pokemon (aka Jynx) Here's PokeMMO's tierlists: https://forums.pokem...and-tier-lists/ 1st Place Prize: Careful Lickitung w/ Curse: 31 / 24-26 / 31 / 23-28 / 30-31 / 26-28 + 300k 2nd place prize: TM 35 + TM 30 + 50k (thanks to CaptainGrey) Notes: Don't AFK Timeout opponent unless you're given permission to it Pls gib minimum of 16 players Do not start your match before Noad has given the permission

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Borderline. Pokemon that are not OU by usage but are too strong for the UU tier.

Most of the Blaziken are physically oriented due to no special Fighting-type moves and STABs are important. EV Spread for whatever set is 252 Speed 252 Attack. Moveset can be either Choice Band set with Blaze Kick, Superpower, Thunderpunch, Quick Attack or Substitute, Reversal, Blaze Kick, Thunderpunch. Some like special fire move over physical even in physically oriented sets.

Well this was pretty much my point of all of this. I'm not convinced either way. We cannot just assume those kind of teambuilds that beat Rhydon are only to beat Rhydon. Swellow is one of the few top tier sweepers that do not have good move or two against Rhydon. Since you made it a little bit sound like (to me) that I would want to keep the Rhydon in the tier so I'll make it clear for my own sake here: I do think Rhydon most likely is banworthy in the UU tier but we cannot just ban it without having a real look of the metagame and just assume Rhydon is the problem in our whatever meta. Yeah it absolutely destroys stall but can we be sure stall in our current meta exactly is viable? [spoiler]inb4 Senile's quote of which went about like "when there's a metagame, there's stall"[/spoiler] Edit: If you look at the UU list of Pokemon it looks pretty damn offensive to me at the moment. Edit2: (a kind of a TL;DR of what I'm saying): Rhydon does not make stall unviable if Rhydon isn't a sure bet to be brought to every team. If highly offensive teams make Rhydon to not be used that may lead to defensive team to be viable against those highly offensive teams. You're free to argue that this isn't the case but I'm just saying we can't assume things.

I don't think you can instaban Rhydon though. I'm a little bit repeating myself now here but whatever. In my opinion whether Rhydon belongs in UU tier or not is mostly about how viable fast hyper offense is in the UU tier. Against a fast Hyper Offensive team (especially ones containing a lot of special offense) Rhydon will do absolutely nothing against them. It might not even get a hit off. So if there is a reason, an actual reason outside of Rhydon's existence to run speedy offense in the UU tier this actually makes Rhydon balance things if anything. It isn't a sure shot to bring Rhydon in your team because you may face a lot of teams that will beat Rhydon like it's nothing. I think it should be reflected that how well does fast offensive teams work against Rhydonless teams. If highly fast offense outside of Rhydon's existence is unviable then the way Rhydon punishes the bulky side of the meta is just ridiculously insane. But we can't ban Rhydon under offensive characteristics of "sweeping with little effort" if the actual UU metagame is something that can outspeed Rhydon and not getting swept by it at all due to the lack of its speed. I'm aware Rhydon can help its sweeping with stuff like Substitute but honestly if you don't have any coverage move on Rhydon in order to break the Sub then you're bad and if you get predicted then it's a bit of a "get gud" then. I hate to quote Smogon too much here but Rampardos has been NU in every Smogon's tier ever since it was made and it has 165 base attack and 58 speed and arguably one of the best abilities in the game. So banning just something offensively due to just attack and not speed isn't just right.

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Since we're literally 1 NU tournament in the official events I just start to write this by theorymon and personal experience. I'll keep these here for a little while before adding the ranks so feel free to contribute but nothing will be set in stone. Fearow - S rank. Fearow is a disastrous sweeper. It will shred teams that do not have Rock or Steel-types left or at all. The raw power from STAB Return and Drill Peck is no joke and late game it can easily sweep teams. Even though Fearow has downsides, such as being fairly easily countered by the right team a good Fearow user will soften the opponent before trying to sweep with Fearow and I could argue no Pokemon sweeps late game with such of lack of effort than Fearow and it just pressures the metagame so much. Blastoise - S rank. Toxic is the nemesis of Blastoise, yes. It also is a fairly common move in NU. However, with Cleric support Blastoise with just sheer base stats and Water-type is just really hard to break as well it can cause some major offense. Countering Blastoise is never safe due to access to Ice Beam and Earthquake so scouting Blastoise is really needed. Counter and Mirror Coat are REALLY scary moves from something that is literally impossible to OHKO in this tier and a Pokemon which has fairly high HP stat. Really unpredictable and just really strong. Grumpig - S rank. The bane of Grumpig's existence (Absol) is now gone in the tier. Breaking Grumpig is really hard just after one Calm Mind. Sharpedo has really risky time countering it and Flareon will just take massive damage from it. Easily will turn into unstoppable sweeping machine. Getting even a Toxic off most of the time will make you take a powerful STAB +1/+2 Psychic from this so overall just really good. Pursuit Sneasel doesn't really even limit Grumpig THAT much, it doesn't really Pursuit "trap" it as it does laughable damage to Bold 252/252+ Pig while it OHKOs Sneasel with +1 Signal Beam. Flareon - A+ rank. Not convinced of S worthiness after all. Flareon can both support team with Wish + Heal Bell or just flat out destroy with CB 130 base attack. When Flareon comes in, something's probably gonna die or at least take massive damage. The low speed of Flareon is really concerning and switching Flareon in oftentimes is hard. Xatu - A+ rank/S rank. Pretty much like Grumpig, insane CM sweeper. Has wider movepool but a bit easier to revenge kill from the likes of Electabuzz, Electrode, Sneasel etc. Hitmontop - A+ rank. Even though it was before the most used NU I just cannot rank it S for two reasons. Offensively it isn't that good. As a supporter it lacks a instant recovery move. Hitmontop has so many good things about it, just the offensive movepool, the ability, Rapid Spin and base stats but not just convinced it's S material. A really good addition to any team but not a Pokemon that defines the metagame. Ampharos - A+ rank. Ampharos is really good but nothing you should be scared of when teambuilding. Plenty of stuff has something for it. The strong Thunderbolt, sufficient movepool and ability to support the team is usually enough reasons to bring it to your team. Excellent Blastoise check. A bit too easily countered by Ground-types. Lapras - A+ rank. Very diverse but Dragon Dance set in NU is a bit underwhelming based on my experiences and Perish Trap... well there's not much to Perish Trap maybe except Grumpig. (which can Whirlwind). The main set of Lapras is a bulky special offensive with or without Heal Bell which is a great move to support the team from Toxic. Really insane base stats but awful typing compared to something like Blastoise. Armaldo - A rank. Really awesome base stats and a nice little Quake Slide gets a lot of things done. Excellent Fearow check. The numerous water-type cause Armaldo a bit of a problem. Cradily - A+ rank. Might be S but can't say that yet. Toxic just absolutely shuts it down but without it Curse set is just.. unstoppable. Pikachu - A rank. Impossible to switch in but when it's in, oh boy. The damage is insane. There has been a really low amount of Pikachu's so far but it might be partly because getting a comp one is really hard to grind. Whenever I've seen it in action it just destroys. Priority is a huge problem. Zangoose - A+ rank. A Pokemon I would have considered S rank a bit earlier now I have to admit it might have been a bit early to claim that rank. Really destructive sweeper late game which can make sweeps happen from nothing. If Hitmontop loses usage for some reason Zangoose might be S rank as well but it's a Pokemon that at least massively interrupts the sweeping. Sharpedo - A rank. Really needed to punish Grumpig but just kinda has the Pikachu syndrome. Impossible to switch in. Also a bit too easily countered considered how hard it's to get in. I almost thought of even putting it B+ but that's a bit too low. Gligar - B rank. Sorry Craigu. Didn't think the day would come when Gligar wouldn't seem OP in the NU tier but it just isn't. Great Pokemon but mainly due to the highly water-type bulky metagame Gligar is really easy to counter and doesn't sweep too well. Nice Pokemon to spread out Toxic and Knock Off though. Misdreavus - B+/A rank. Can really start nice CM battles with whoever but just kinda overshadowed by mediocre base stats. A nice Normal band check as well. Glalie - A rank. The best spiker in the tier, period. I've seen Spikes be rather effective in the tier with the right support. Glalie also is really diverse Pokemon by a lot of ways. Mr. Mime - A rank. Doesn't lose a lot to Xatu but I think it does, mainly due to worse movepool. A really good check to any special attacker, though. continuing someday.. so pls contribute if you disagree with something here or just wanna give your own input

The worst thing about Fearow is that leads players to overprotect their Rock/Steel types in a way that is really bad for a competitive and enjoyable metagame. Also you absolutely need to bring a Rock/Steel type or two or your team most likely is absolutely destroyed. However these Rock/Steel type Pokemon like Aggron, Metang, Relicanth as well as Golem, Cradily and Armaldo (unless predicted Steel Wing) these Pokemon can REALLY steal the momentum away from Fearow with very little effort and make the Fearow user really pay for its Choice Band. The Fearow user still is always in the upper hand since after Fearow it's easy to make a really easy double switch to something that counters these mentioned Pokemon. Another thing is that Diglett might turn into a really insane supporter to Fearow to take these Pokemon down and because Fearow is the reason these Pokemon should be used I'd argue Fearow is the broken one in this combo. Also Fearow in a right team can just really easily sweep and it just limits teambuilding so much. There are bulky Pokemon like Lapras, Walrein, Ampharos etc. that prevents Fearow from sweeping with spamming return at full HP as well as there are plenty of faster than Fearow Pokemon. Pokemon like Crobat and Electrode which could revenge kill Fearow are really easy to counter*. Electabuzz will take massive damage from Quick Attack and Scyther is fairly easy to counter unless it Swords Dances because it will either Normal attack or Aerial Ace Fearow. When you combine these checks and faster Pokemon with the fact that there are just flat out hard counters to Fearow it's a bit hard to completely agree that it needs to go immediately personally but no one can deny the way Fearow will have impact in this metagame we have now. It might just turn it way too much about just Fearow.

eh.. idk about that 252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 128-151 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 69-82 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 SpA Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Flareon: 86-104 (50 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 SpA Mantine Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Flareon: 84-102 (48.8 - 59.3%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO I know Mantine can be a more offensive variant than what we have here but really.. neither of these two are even reliable checks to Flareon (Bold Pelipper is but it's poop). And Hitmontop just takes massive damage on the switch. -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hitmontop: 66-78 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO I personally agree Flareon of being S rank. The damage output is just insane and when Flareon wants something down, it will get it. You really need insane prediction to switch in to Flareon. I feel like it's like a Rhydon of NUs except no set up moves.

252 Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 84-98 (29.5 - 34.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (without switching so double this to get the power of switched out) It's notable damage, yes I agree but just add some physical bulk and Houndoom just doesn't destroy Dusclops anymore - especially because it can wait for a Pain Split again. Houndoom is really an insanely hard counter but I personally feel the UU metagame we're in now is just way too much about Dusclops, Houndoom and Charizard (sunnybeamer, since Haze keks on Belly Drum).