gbwead

Crobat and Golbat are imo more viable in OU than Nidoqueen, it just seems wrong to have Nidoqueen move up there while Crobat/Golbat remain in lower tiers.

I just can't see anyone playing an offensive Sheer Force Nidoqueen in OU. Nidoking outclasses Nidoqueen completly offensively. It will imo never be OU by usage and, even if it ends up broken in UU, it will need to be tested at some point, might as well test it now.

What is the procedure for pokemons gaining new Hidden Abilities? Why is Nidoking and Nidoqueen treated differently from Golbat, Crobat and Watchog? If you want to play it safe, just ban everything to OU without thinking. But if the objective is to evaluate where everything is the most likely to end up, I would do this: Nidoking --> OU (just to be safe) Nidoqueen --> UU (just to be safe) Watchog --> Untiered (no change) Crobat --> UU (no change) Golbat --> UU (Golbat is not broken in NU, it simply has little chance of staying there long term and I believe it would be best to speed up the tiering process) I want to insist on Nidoqueen. There is absolutely no way it will be OU by usage imo and the odds that Nidoqueen ends up broken in UU seems so unlikely.

Any pokemon that learn Defog can do Defog and then switch out. The point you are trying to make could apply to any Defog user, not just Rotom. Also, people need to remember that Serperior is accused first of being UBER and second being UNHEALTHY. Arguing that Serperior is actually not unhealthy because it can punish Rotom doesn't mean much; that completly misses the bigger point that Serperior is a UBER mon and it's never a good reason to keep a UBER mon in a tier just so it can check other threats. Being suspected to be UBER is like being suspected of having committed murder. Being suspected to be UNHEALTHY is like being suspected of having commited theft. Murder is a way bigger crime than theft, so focusing only about whether or not Serperior is unhealthy does not accomplish much. edit: Not a single person in this thread has done that. Don't make empty accusations just for the sake of painting a bad image of players that want Serperior banned instead of building a case for Serperior to stay OU.

It's really nice to complain about every little thing you believe is wrong with the OU metagame just so you can argue that Serperior is not a priority, but what are you actually suggesting? What should actually be done? You want to go after Garchomp? Rotom-Wash? Or are you expecting that by shedding enough tears you will be able to soften devs' heart to the point where they will release the legendaries you listed in order to appease you? What is the point of your post if you offer no argument relative to Serperior and no solution regarding the OU metagame?

and boom my mind is blown

Very impressive!

If that was a reasonable argument, nothing in the history of Pokemon battling would ever get banned.

This is a Feraligatr discussion thread. If people have better ev spreads for Feraligatr, this is the best place to share them.

I hope you understand that: I did list Toxicroak as one of the answers vs Fera, so why are you trying to convince me of something I already agreed to? (Look below for the conditions for that answer) Toxicroak can recover through Wish support, sure. Feraligatr can also recover through Wish support. I said from the start that I was going to analyze only 1 set of Feraligatr; if that irrelevant set can accomplish so much, imagine how broken Feraligatr would be with a relevant set. If Toxicroak switches into a Feraligatr doing SD, here are the relevant calcs: Scenario 1 (Close Combat set) If Toxicroak runs Close Combat, this means Feraligatr will die if it has less than (68.5 - 81.7%). If Toxicroak does Close Combat and Feraligatr survives, this means Toxicroak automatically dies to Crunch from Fera. This means that: If Fera is above 81%, Toxicroak loses with Close Combat. If Fera is between 68% and 81%, Toxicroak is at risk of losing with Close Combat. If Fera is below 68%, Toxicroak wins. (Toxicroak needs more than 10% HP to survive Life Orb Recoil, otherwise it's a tie) If Fera is above 68%, Toxicroak needs to be above 96% in order to survive the max roll from +2 Crunch and the two turns of Life Orb Recoil. On the Toxicroak CC set vs Fera when Toxicroak switches into a SD, we can conclude that (without considering potential crits): If Toxicroak is above 96%, Toxicroak will always win. If Fera is below 68%, it will always lose. If Toxicroak is below 96% and Fera is above 68%, Toxicroak can win or lose, Fera can win or lose and sometimes both can lose. Scenario 2 (Drain Punch set) If Fera is too healthy and can't be taken down with 1 hit, that means Toxicroak will have to hit Fera twice. Considering Fera inflicts from 64% to 76% with Crunch +2, Toxicroak needs to be healthy as well in order to survive. Turn 1 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 68-82 (42.7 - 51.5%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO (21.5 - 25.9% recovered minus 10% Life Orb recoil = 11.5 to 15.9% recovered) +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 101-120 (63.9 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Turn 2 Drain Punch or Thunder Punch depending on how much HP Feraligatr has left (Maximum Recovered: 11.5 to 15.9%) (Minimum Recovered: -10%) Feraligatr faints This means that: If Feraligatr is below 57.2%, Toxicroak automatically wins with Thunder Punch. (Toxicroak needs more than 10% HP to survive Life Orb Recoil, otherwise it's a tie) If Feraligatr is between 57.2% and 68.5%, Toxicroak might not OHKO with Thunder Punch. If Feraligatr is above 68%, Toxicroak in order to win will have to: tank a +2 Crunch (63.9 - 75.9%) take two turns of Life Orb Recoil (20%) get back between 21.5% to 51.8% HP thanks to Drain Punch Best case scenario (Fera is at full HP, max roll on first Drain Punch and low roll on +2 Crunch): Toxicroak needs to be above 48.5% HP to not lose. Best case scenario (Fera is at full HP, max roll on first Drain Punch and low roll on +2 Crunch): Toxicroak needs to be above 58.5% HP to win. Worst case scenario (Fera is at 58%, low roll on Drain Punch and high roll on +2 Crunch): Toxicroak needs to be above 73.9% HP to not lose. Worst case scenario (Fera is at 58%, low roll on Drain Punch and high roll on +2 Crunch): Toxicroak needs to be above 83.9% HP to win. On the Toxicroak Drain Punch set vs Fera when Toxicroak switches into a SD, we can conclude that (without considering potential crits): If Toxicroak is above 83.9%, it will always win with Drain Punch + Thunder Punch. If Feraligatr is below 57.2%, it will always lose. If Toxicroak is below 83.9% and Fera is above 57.2%, Toxicroak can win or lose, Fera can win or lose and sometimes both can lose.

I said one of the best, not the best. Please take more time before replying. Dugtrio traps way more than just Heatran, there is no need to tunnel vision on that mon that will not even get added anyways.

I don't know why you quoted me saying you agree with a temporary complex ban, when I never suggested that. Also, I don't want to be mean, but I really think you should take a step back before posting in these discussions. You have a tendency to read others' opinions seeking to validate your own narrative of what happened in the past and what will/would happen in the future. You often end up reaching conclusions with very flawed assumptions about causes and consequences. Let me explain based on the following facts: Dugtrio was banned from NU. Dugtrio had 80 base atk when it was NU. Dugtrio got buffed to 100 base atk after it got banned from NU. Those things do not add up to: It's not because Dugtrio got buffed after getting banned from NU that it means Dugtrio got buffed because it got banned. After all, Dugtrio had 80 base atk since 2012 in PokeMMO. It was never nerfed to 80 base atk, that's how it always was. Dugtrio got recently buffed, that's not a reverted nerf. And also, even if what you were saying was true, it still has nothing to do with temporary complex bans.

For multiple years now, there has been at least one OU tournament per weekend. Thank you for that.

I didn't really look into Close Combat, but it's not a big deal. It just means Feraligatr needs to stay more healthy while Toxicroak is more likely to be low hp since it will be Life Orb without recovery.

Glare is one of the best tool Serperior can use. Removing that option is a huge nerf, a nerf that would be more than enough to make Serperior acceptable. I don't want that to happen because I believe there are better solutions tho. Glare is ideal when you have multiple sub users on your team (serperior being one of them usually). Glare is also ideal when you pair Serperior with slow mons. Glare is also ideal with mons that have the capacity to flinch like Togekiss. Glare is ideal when all other moves would have low impact.

I personally believe that Feraligatr fits offensive uber characteristics. Without even considering versatility, I would like to analyze the following Fera set: Feraligatr @ Life Orb Ability: Sheer Force Level: 50 EVs: 252 Atk / 156 Def / 100 Spe Adamant Nature IVs: 29 HP - Waterfall - Aqua Jet - Crunch - Swords Dance Here is what happens to the UU mons based on usage when they switch into Feraligatr SD. I realise that Fera might not be at full HP when it sets up, but the same could easily be said about the pokemons that Fera will face. Ultimetaly, if Fera is lower HP, there will be more counters/checks, but if the pokemons in front of Fera are lower HP, they will be easier to knock out as well. Based on the calcs listed above, I believe there are very few safe switches versus a Fera SD: Crobat Impish + Haze needs to be above 66% to 86% if Fera is above 58%. Mandibuzz RH needs to be above 70% to 83% if Feraligatr is above 16.7%. Rotom-Mow Toxicroak needs to be above 65% to 75% if Fera is above 68%. Roserade only works if kept healthy and based on predictions. This is not acceptable. If a single Feraligatr set has so few answers, how can we expect people to prepare for multiple sets, determine what set is in front of them and then predicting what move Feraligatr will use? Fera is clearly overpowered for UU and needs to be banned.

So far, we have several posts recognizing that Serperior is a problem that needs to be addressed (Chuck only considers the evasion as a problem): Before going into what should be the right solutions for the problem, I urge the following players that have defended Serperior in the past to speak up now: @DiosSlurpuff @Deploic @Havsha @Quilachy Since Serperior is OU, it's safe to say that even if it is deemed banworthy it will get nerfed directly or indirectly instead of getting banned. Here are the solutions I have seen suggested so far: Remove the evasion boost that Serperior gets when an opposing pokemon uses Defog against it Add some legendaries Contrary Removal / Ban Leaf Storm Removal / Complex Ban Leaf Storm Base Power Nerf Addition of Assault Vest Glare Removal / Complex Ban Addition of new hidden abilities Imo, adding some legendaries is a solution that have been thrown around for 10 years now. Legendaries are not the solution to every single problem and if they are ever added to the game it will be because devs, working with finite amount of potential content, deem it is the right time to do so. Bans / Removals would be effective nerfs, but I personally do not like messing with what constitute the core moves, abilities and attributes of a pokemon. Bans / Removals should only be used as last resorts because they suck from a pve stand point, they create a tiering slippery slope and they also devalue the economic value of said pokemon. The addition of Assault Vest would only make Serperior better from what I can see so far. Therefore, the only potential solutions I would consider are reworking how the Defog mechanic interacts with Contrary and/or adding new abilities. I'm not convinced removing the evasion boost is the right thing to do or would even be enough to actually nerf Serperior, but unlike the other solutions that have been suggested, I'm not inherently against it. I believe the best solution is just to add new hidden abilities as soon as possible. I made the following post about that specific solution: Please do not give Regenerator to new pokemons. The damage to the game would be irreparable. I do not know if we will ever get part 3 of the anniversary event, but I think we all expect an Halloween event in 1 month. I would like to point out that giving Infiltrator to Chandelure, Crobat, Golbat, Spiritomb, Seviper and Ninjask during the Halloween event would fit the Halloween them perfectly. Even shiny Jumpluff has been reported several times as evil: Sap Sipper is really nice versus Serperior, but considering that the mons with that ability might not be good enough for OU, I do not think getting Sap Sipper is not as important as getting Infiltrator. With that being said, if Devs are concerned with adding new hidden abilities based on PVE themes, I believe almost all mons affected by Sap Sipper have been commonly seen during Chinese New Year events: Azumarill (Rabbit) Girafarig, Stantler, Sawsbuck & Zebstrika (Horse) Miltank (Ox) As for the remaining abilities, I'm not really sure if the XMAS event theme is a good excuse to add them. I guess giving Magic Guard to Alakazam could be seen as an XMAS miracle?!? Anyhow, as much as I hate Serperior right now, I really do not want devs/staff to fuck up with a solution that would be overkill (legendaries), that would miss the mark entirely (assault vest) or that would destroy Serperior beyond recognition (Bans, Complex bans, moves getting nerfs, etc.) I think the competitive scene can be patient as long as something gets done in the short term and Halloween is only one month away, so...

I am saying that the main reason golbat is played in OU is to Defog. Taking that away from Golbat hurts its viability.

I would like to add that Golbat needs U-Turn to pivot sucessfully vs Serperior and that means Golbat can't play Defog anymore which was its main niche in OU.

For the sake of this discussion, can anyone list the mons that will be able to counter Serperior thanks to Assault Vest?

I know what it means. I'm not even saying Assault Vest on Serperior is good or a game changer, it's a sacrifice for sure since Glare and Leech Seed are great moves. However, I still think AV Serperior can have some value. When I look at the most common Rain Team right now (Excadrill, Pelipper, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Scizor, Kingdra), I think AV Serp would almost automatically win here thanks to the extra special bulk.

Assault Vest would be a terrible addition imo and I would even argue that it would make Serperior stronger. When I think of potential Assault Vest users, I think above all else about Mienshao. Sadly, Assault Vest doesn't enable Mienshao to counter Serperior, but what it allows Mienshao to very effectively stop Chandelure and Volcarona. Since Volcarona and Chandelure are some of the best answers to Serperior and assault vest would just hurt their viability, Assault Vest would most likely make Serperior more viable. Furthermore, for a lot of mons, Assault Vest is not a realistic option, but when I look at Serperior, I could actually consider playing one with Assault Vest (Leaf Storm, Giga Drain, HP Fire and Dragon Pulse). I am not saying Assault Vest Serperior would be broken or it would be the optimal set to run. Not at all. I just think Assault Vest gives Serperior the option to tank Hurricane from Kingdra in Rain or Bug Buzz from Volcarona. Helping Serperior deal with special attackers is not a good idea imo. Overall, I believe the addition of Assault Vest can only make Serperior stronger directly or indirectly, but there is a good chance any change will be so minimal that it would not even matter. If Assault Vest is added, whatever, but I seriously hope the reason Assault Vest is added is not Serperior because that could only be a mistake from what I can see.

On that note, I noticed dubs players starting to run defog more often to give their own serp an evasion boost. I believe removing the evasion boost would be a good step forward.

Even if you don't believe Serperior is a problem, I am sure you would still agree that Serperior is a pokemon worth talking about and it deserves its own discussion thread.

Could you please clarify those statements? What are you implying? The solutions to Serperior are a topic of discussion? The implementation and timing of those solutions are a topic of discussion? Serperior itself is a topic of discussion? (In that case, why no discussion thread?) Maybe you just meant Serperior has been a topic of discussion in TC chat?