gbwead

The problem with the 3-months system is that it looks like an ultimate solution to creating all tiers, but it simply never worked for NU. The amount of chaos and unstability the system created for NU has always been overwhelming. That's the reason why TC always tries to artifically create "stability" there by quick banning everything that dares drop to that tier without any test whatsoever. Over the years, I have suggested so many ways to try to improve the tiering system, but all of my suggestions were either shut down or ignored. I came to realise that staff/devs like the 3 months system for two reasons: 1. 3 months = 1 season Having the main usage movements right when a season ends looks like great game design since it means in theory that throughout a season, a tier shouldn't change. The problem is that tiers are very different and a single solution to everything is pure fantasy. UU is created based on more that 550k duels per months. NU is created based on 8k duels per months. It just doesn't make sense for NU to be created the same way UU is created when the data available for creating these tiers is so high for UU and so low for NU. Considering that Munya announces usage movements 1 week before the end of the third month, it also means that it's only the first 20 days of the third month that determines usage movements. We don't even get 8k UU duels that create NU, only 6k. This means we are seeing mons with 35% win rate rise up to a tier where clearly they are not even viable. Something with so low win rate should not be able to move up and yet that's the case. This is the equivalent of having Flygon (35% win rate) rise up to OU out of nowhere because the data available for creating tiers is so low. 2. Chaos is good I used to complain a lot about how bad the tiering system was for NU and how much chaos NU had to deal with every season. The answer to my complaints was always the same: "stability = staleness". Staff/Devs don't want lower tiers to stabilize, they embrace the chaos because they associate chaos with keeping the game "interesting". It doesn't surprise me that they intent to add Hidden Abilities progressively. It implies disrupting tiers with chaos and that to the them means keeping the game "interesting". I tried to argue mutliple times that providing stability to tiers means tiers can evolve naturally. That leads to having better tiers and having more informed tiering decisions. When a tier is stable and naturally evolving, it's easier to analyse to impact of adding or removing threats. We need usage movements to reflect what is happening in each tier and determining usage movements based on 20 days of usage (6k duels) is absolute non sense. That's not enough. I believe the best way to handle usage movements would be with a 2 repetitive months cycle. For a pokemon to drop to a lower tier, that pokemon needs to be below 4% usage two months in a row. For a pokemon to rise to a higher tier, that pokemon needs to be over 5% usage two months in a row. No more first, second or third month. A pokemon that has proven to be worth something in a higher tier, can rise up to that tier every month. We wouldn't have to wait 3 months for every single time. This system also requires no extra work or effort from staff. The data is available in game and no calculations are required. I remember analyzing what the tiers would look like based on that system in 2020/2021; the usage movements would have made more sense and were more dynamic too. Another issue I see coming is the addition of new Regenerator Pokemons. I implore devs to not let that happen. This will kill the competitive scene. I like stall and would love to have more regenerator mons, but in PokeMMO it would be complete madness if we have a 1 hour time limit rule + multiple regenerator mons. Games where players have to make plays to win will result instead in huge stall fest based on that 1 hour time limit rule win condition. I don't know if there are any plans to add more regenerator mons, but if that is the case please reconsider before it's too late. Also, TC needs to do something about UU. Since the addition of P-Z in UU, UU usage dropped from 40-50k duels per months to 8k duels per months. UU used to be played more than NU. Now, NU is played 3 times more than UU. I don't think any tiering decision in the history of the game has ever been this bad. Please just ban P-Z before UU matchmaking dies. The death of UU would also mean the death of NU. There is so much at stake here and TC needs to act. (Plz don't ban me again for disagreeing with TC)

Can someone explain why I see "NU doesn't have good walls" as an argument supposedly in favor of an Electrode ban? Are walls a direct counter to Electrode? What's the deal with that? Is Blissey the ideal switch that prevent Electrode from doing its job? If no, what walls are you guys refering to?

Why are you justifying Electrode being potentially banworthy based on your own comparision between tiers while invalidating "comparison between tiers" as a an overall argument in this discussion? "You can't compare because these things are different" And yet by using the word different you are making a comparison yourself. I'm sure not everyone agree with your comparison or the conclusions drawn from your comparison, that doesn't make their own views invalid in regard to yours.

Electrode can set up screens with TAUNT and STATIC support!!!! SO SCARY!!! I'm going to have nightmares, please ban! My brain is not enough powerful to break through screens. What do walls have to do with Electrode anyways??!? Screens are used to set up vs things that would otherwise OHKO you. Alomomola is not going to OHKO with Toxic or Scald. Same thign with Golbat or Bronzor and nearly all walls. Walls are not designed to OHKO stuff. NU lack of decent walls is completly irrelevant in this matter. Who cares? Why on earth would you try to OHKO Electrode? Electrode does nothing. The only relevant Scarf users I can think of that can OHKO Electrode without the risk of static are Krook, Garchomp and Dugtrio. Are you suggesting that Electrode would be a problem if it wasn't for Krook in UU? Really? (PZ is BL) Screens are barely viable, not broken and not rng based. Why this huge push to prevent that playstyle from being viable? Stop banning things just become it's new territory. We also have tons of crit monsters in NU like Absol that have no problem whatsoever ignoring screens. We have Piloswine coming into Electrode and making fun of it. A scarf user like Rotom can simply trick in front of Electrode. Whimsicott with infiltrator or prankster fucks electrode as well. Even fucking Slowking can laughs in the face of Electrode, especially if it carries Teleport instead of an electric move (that would deal no dmg). Seriously, this is plain stupid. Use your heads instead of banning stuff you didn't spend more than half a second to play against.

If the thread is opened, it's already a given that KR is going to get banned. The discussion is really just a formality. I'm glad that KR will be banned, but once again I fear for the precedent it will set if it gets banned for the wrong reason like INTENT which opens the door to so much non sense.

If they want to add INTENT as a ban reason, they should update the tiering policy then,

Waterfall is a move. KR is an item. The primary intent of a move vs an item is hardly comparable since an item has no other function or utility. Moves often have secondary effects. Items only have one function. Leftovers heals a specific amount of HP. Flame Orb burns the user. Items do not have secondary effects, they do not have secondary intent. So Primary Intent doesn't make sense for items since that is the only intent they have. Also, the wording secondary effect is very misleading. Sometimes people use scald because of the burn potential over the dmg it deals. When my empoleon spams Scald vs another Empoleon, my primary intent is to burn that Empoleon and the dmg I deal is secondary. Sometimes I want to Flinch with Waterfall, sometimes I want to do dmg with Waterfall, sometimes both. Secondary Intent =/= Secondary Effect. It depends on the game situation and on the players. What goes on in a players' head doesn't really matter and has never been used as a ban argument in PokeMMO. Let me give you some examples as to why primary intent is irrelevant. When I choose to play Flame Body Chandelure over Flash Fire, I'm trying to fish for RNG that's the primary intent, there is no other intention. I could play Flash Fire, but I choose to go for the RNG route. Does that mean Flame Body Chandelure should be banned based on intent alone? Ofc NOT. The intent is irrelevant. If I use Metronome on Ludicolo for the very unlikely chance of doing a Quiver Dance, that's my intent, but that doesn't make Metronome Ludicolo banworthy. If I use Magnitude instead of EQ for the 5% chance of doing a 150 bp ground move instead of a 100 bp ground move, that's the primary intent for that choice and once again the intent is utterly irrelevant. A burn from Flame Body depends on very specific conditions (contact move) / odds (30% chance) and a burn is usually not as detrimental as multiple chance to flinch. The odds of doing Quiver Dance with Ludicolo thanks to Metronome is so low compared to the high flinch chance of KR with Multi hit moves. The winning potential of Quiver Dance Ludicolo is probably not as great as +2 Cloyster with KR. The 5% chance of doing a 150 BP ground move from Magnitude is certainly not as good as the KR Flinch Potential on Cloyster. My point is that what matters is the game, what happens during duels. The uncompetitiveness of KR is determined by the RNG effect of KR, not the intent of the players using the item or the gamefreak devs coming up with the KR mechanic. Intent is irrelevant in a such a ban discussion.

I don't know what you are smoking @Munya, but it's clear that this thread is for discussing ban reasons.

It does matter tho because they have no shame in banning P2 as Offensive Uber. Imagine how stupid that sounds: P2 eviolite banned as OFFENSIVE UBER!!! It would be so simple to actually listen to the community and what they have to say and ban p2 as Defensive Uber, but they don't listen and disregard their own tiering policy. There is absolutely no point in opening discussion threads if they do not consider the arguments being presented. KR is no different. They will set a new precedent out of the blue that primary intent is a ban criteria under the uncompetitive umbrella. No one knows what that means or wtf they are talking about. The discussion needs to be centered around the 40% flinch, not about the comparing primary intent of Moves vs Items. The primary intent of moves like Waterfall is different from the primary intent of items like KR? Euh, maybe? And no one cares really.

When you try to make a case for something to get banned as uncompetitive, you put forward arguments to show that the degree of RNG involved is UNACCEPTABLE. Primary Intent is completly irrelevant? What does that even mean anyways? The primary intent of the player using whatever may be deem banworthy? The primary intent of the item itself? Can an item have intent? Like WTF. Just refer to the tiering policy instead of this farce. I am completly fine with KR getting banned, but please can you guys put at least a semblance of effort into this ban?

That's the argument that should be made. Not fucking primary intent.

Where in the tiering policy is "primary intent" a banworthy factor? Please link where that is stated.

How many TC members asked for a Dugtrio thread so far?

Signatures for the MVPs and winners of PSL 14. Mismagicians players can contact Tear directly for their signatures.

Regenerator has been recently added to the clauses and ban list. Your tournament would therefore be the first tournament of this new metagame.

I'll give one month for people to claim their prizes. Whatever remains unclaimed will go towards the BAN DoubleJ Fondation.

I'm taking suggestions for this amount. Should it go directly to PSL 15? Should it go to PSL 15 but reserved for whoever records duels? Should it be put towards reinforcing the PSL 14 bans in an eventual PSL 15 Court Auction? Should it go directly to JeanMarch for his amazing recording spread sheet? Should it go towards PSL 14 Salty Suite? Let me know please. Should it go towards a PSL 14 Signature for the winners? Signatures for MVPs?

2% of 122 050 000 $ = 2 441 000 $

Recorded Duels (10% of 122 050 000 $ = 12 205 000 $) (191 duels recorded / 252 duels played) @MaatthewMLG: 41/252 x 12 205 000 $ = 1 985 734 $ @Poufilou: 5/252 x 12 205 000 $ = 242 162 $ @xMago: 2/252 x 12 205 000 $ = 96 865 $ @calidubstep: 10/252 x 12 205 000 $ = 484 325 $ @xStarr: 9/252 x 12 205 000 $ = 435 892 $ @JeanMarc: 124/252 x 12 205 000 $ = 6 005 634 $ PSL 15: 61/252 x 12 205 000 $ = 2 954 384 $ who are you refering to?

Eden of Hazard's (10% of 122 050 000 $ = 12 205 000 $) (38 duels won) @Mkns1070: 1 220 500 $ + 1/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 1 365 032 $ @isi1993: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 3/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 932 894 $ @jorgemaximo: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 5/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 1 221 959 $ @Elvessss: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 3/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 932 894 $ @PoseidonWrath: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 6/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 1 366 492 $ @zMauri: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 1/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 643 828 $ @NagaHex: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 5/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 1 221 959 $ @xxxHan: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 2/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 788 361 $ @Ronronner: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 3/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 932 894 $ @SweeTforU: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 6/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 1 366 492 $ @CristhianArce: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 2/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 788 361 $ @Jaawax: 1/11 x 45% x 12 205 000$ + 1/38 x 45% x 12 205 000$ = 643 828 $ I will not send prizes by mail. You need to contact me in game or on discord (so that I can log in) to receive your prize.

Mismagicians (68% x 122 050 000 $ = 82 994 000 $) (36 duels won) @camilo7: 10% x 82 994 000 $ + 2/36 x 45% x 82 994 000 $ = 10 374 250 $ @Latiosrol: 1/12 x 45% x 82 994 000 $ + 6/36 x 45% x 82 994 000 $ = 9 336 825 $ @PepeDeLaGente: 3 112 275 $ + 0/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 3 112 275 $ @MaatthewMLG: 3 112 275 $ + 0/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 3 112 275 $ @yosoyarca: 3 112 275 $ + 5/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 8 299 400 $ @clayclover: 3 112 275 $ + 0/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 3 112 275 $ @ShanQi: 3 112 275 $ + 5/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 8 299 400 $ @KiiritoX: 3 112 275 $ + 3/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 6 224 550 $ @hannsvps: 3 112 275 $ + 3/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 6 224 550 $ @SejuaniSupport: 3 112 275 $ + 5/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 8 299 400 $ @YettoDie: 3 112 275 $ + 1/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 4 149 700 $ @Zymogen: 3 112 275 $ + 2/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 5 187 125 $ @Frag: 3 112 275 $ + 4/36 x 37 347 300 $ = 7 261 975 $ I will not send prizes by mail. You need to contact me in game or on discord (so that I can log in) to receive your prize.

Congrats to Mismagicians! Reminder regarding the cash prize distribution:

I asked multiples times for a discussion thread. MULTIPLE TIMES!!! I know what I said and I do not need your approval since you have access to the TC chat and I no longer do. You denied me the right to open a Garchomp thread so many times that I had to make a 2k words post instead: Garchomp needed to be banned and you did everything in your power (you even had the audacity to VOTE as supposedly a tie breaker) for that to not happen. Eight months of OU were ruined because of you and your agenda of keeping things from UBERS. I don't care if you agree with this or not, the past is the past and you're not going to change my mind. There is no point of arguing about the past with you because i) you have the authority ii) everything you do and say is hidden. I know what I know and you know what you know. No one cares about all of this. All I see is that the only reason there is no Dugtrio thread today is because of you. I know that because TC members have already expressed that they wanted Dugtrio to be discussed in OU. They have said so for months now and some even before Dugtrio was buffed. Here is the most recent example I can think of: Please stop stalling with these bureaucratic excuses and open the discussion thread.

If you care to look back, keep looking because I asked more than those times.

I made it for you, just post it.