Phase II; PokeMMO with IV physical/special split (Suspect testing Dragonite and Gyarados)

[Robofiend]

I actually didn't find Gyarados too broken in testing, although it was definitely S-Rank with Crunch. Slowbro takes surprisingly little damage from Crunch and can run HP electric to cover it while still maintaining decent coverage with other STAB attacks (the Def drop screws it over, however). Swampert can also soak up attacks reasonably well and retaliate with Rock Slide. It also struggles to break through Dragonite, who scares it out after some minor damage.

 

Dragonite on the other hand was extremely powerful, despite Metagross makes for tougher predictions than other walls. Regardless, it sweeps most of the tier with ease just by coming in on a NVE attack and threatening out weaker attackers with its brutal Espeed/Dclaw combo. Probably banworthy, but I'd like to see some more tests before we make a decision.

[lVlusay]

Hmm...can't really see how that might work with swampert and slowbro. First of all neither of them can switch into gyarados, especially if the latter dragon dances on the switch. Slowbro takes about 50% damage from +1 Crunch. If it's not at full hp (which it will not always be) or just gets a def drop, then it's easily 2 ohkoed. It might do something with hidden power electric, but again having people get something like that just to counter one pokemon is kind of ridiculous. Same story as for with vaporeon with hp electric, what coverage move will it have to give up? Calm mind, slack off, surf, psychic, ice beam? With swampert the story is much worse. If gyarados switches on swampert, with intimidate those rock slides (if it even has than in place of ice beam) will kill in 4-5 hits. If swampert switches on gyardos, it will still only kill it in 3 hits with rock slide. Gyarados will win that match up in either way.

Edited January 23, 2015 by lVlusay

[Sacky]

I actually didn't find Gyarados too broken in testing, although it was definitely S-Rank with Crunch. Slowbro takes surprisingly little damage from Crunch and can run HP electric to cover it while still maintaining decent coverage with other STAB attacks (the Def drop screws it over, however). Swampert can also soak up attacks reasonably well and retaliate with Rock Slide. It also struggles to break through Dragonite, who scares it out after some minor damage.

 

Dragonite on the other hand was extremely powerful, despite Metagross makes for tougher predictions than other walls. Regardless, it sweeps most of the tier with ease just by coming in on a NVE attack and threatening out weaker attackers with its brutal Espeed/Dclaw combo. Probably banworthy, but I'd like to see some more tests before we make a decision.

i also think gya will not be banned but he deserve a preventive test fot that..gya CAN be a thing but it seems to be countereable 

nite must go..now..whit dugtrio..why is that little b*stard here whit us?

[Sacky]

It's kind of ridiculous that we need to talk about defensive breloom or hp electric vaporeon to counter gyarados. Let's look at a possible game scenario. Your opponent brings gyarados on a swampert, vaporeon, heracross or many more things that gyarados can come in to. What are the possible switches? Almost none...You cannot switch on almost any physical wall. Switch to Skarmory, you get trapped by magneton, taunted or just receive huge damage from waterfall. Same goes for forretress. All you can do is explode and hope that the opponent doesn't switch. Same for weezing, try to will o wisp, either miss, lum berry, taunt whatever...If you bring blissey (as excel suggested) or snorlax, good luck taking those waterfalls. And lum berry always saves it if blissey uses twave. Can't switch into ghosts, ground types, rock types, normal types, electric types, fire types, water types, dark types or should I just say almost nothing. Dragonite might work, but Dnite is a problem by itself. You say to get hp electric on vaporeon, like its so easy to do...and even if everyone does, what vaporeon has to give up? surf, ice beam, wish, protect? No pokemon should force the opposing team to run some weird movesets, hidden powers or pokemon to counter it or else getting easily swept. It's all simple. Gyarados obviously needs to get banned as soon as possible because it is clearly broken.

actually hp electric slowbro or vap is a good option in a full 3rd gen metagame...not everything whit this 2 guys is be walls...some coverage for a good sp attack hit is alwayss welcome

edit: sorry for double

Edited January 23, 2015 by Sacky

[Robofiend]

nite must go..now..whit dugtrio..why is that little b*stard here whit us?

 

It just hasn't been discussed. I haven't found it as scary with so much emphasis on physical heavy hitters in the current meta. Also, Dugtrio's off topic for this thread, so you're welcome to open up a new thread if you feel it should be discussed. 

[DoubleJ]

^ it's a meta. It's good to discuss things like hp electric vap, bulky loom, etc to identify whether change can be beneficial. It's the same reasoning as bringing hp grass for swampert and packing eq over better coverage moves for metagross.

Up to ou tier council though.

[Shaniqualela]

I don't even see bulky loom as gimmicky lol.
It can run leech seed for recovery, spore something, etc. It's very useful

[Robofiend]

I don't even see bulky loom as gimmicky lol.
It can run leech seed for recovery, spore something, etc. It's very useful

 

It's ok, just not in this generation. Its ability is worthless, it can't deal with a lot of the OU pokes we've got (Dragons) and its typing isn't that auspicious because of the introduction of physical punches. It does wall Gyara and Tyranitar pretty well, however, there's something to be said for that.

[bl0nde]

I was using Weezing which still works, um... sort of.

252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 48-57 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 85.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

however, I would have to adjust the spread to where it could 1 hit.

4 SpA Weezing Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 128-152 (75.2 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

The reason being if I come in on Dragon dance, he would hit me twice for the KO and I would only hit him once for the 85% ish.

 

It seems dumb to adjust the spread just for that, and I don't think I would bother. If you want to use weezing that is your best shot thou.

Edited January 24, 2015 by bl0nde

[ThinkNice]

... Will o wisp? Or use Thunder. Most dont use Lum Berry. And if you dont have SR up before Gyara Ddances then welp

[Barrage]

... Will o wisp? Or use Thunder. Most dont use Lum Berry. And if you dont have SR up before Gyara Ddances then welp

4MSS, but taunt is probably at least one of the more daunting sets, making W-o-W invalid. However, if you go for taunt on a tbolt you're obviously going to be sad. So there is a risk factor associated with doing that. Also, Lapras is a legitimate option (I posted a picture but everyone seemed to ignore it!). It carries tbolt, so not even a need for HP electric.

[ThinkNice]

4MSS, but taunt is probably at least one of the more daunting sets, making W-o-W invalid. However, if you go for taunt on a tbolt you're obviously going to be sad. So there is a risk factor associated with doing that. Also, Lapras is a legitimate option (I posted a picture but everyone seemed to ignore it!). It carries tbolt, so not even a need for HP electric.

But dem rocks meng. Fuck Ice typing

[Barrage]

But dem rocks meng. Fuck Ice typing

#banthestealthrocks

(I wouldn't even be mad, and I would honestly say it's a real consideration). I know SR really helps the offensive archetype, but I find it really dumb that specific Pokemon/types (that are not necessarily unbalanced at all) are significantly hindered by a single and very common (and hard to get rid of) move at the cost of only one turn.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Barrage

[ThinkNice]

#banthestealthrocks

(I wouldn't even be mad, and I would honestly say it's a real consideration). I know SR really helps the offensive archetype, but I find it really dumb that specific Pokemon/types (that are not necessarily unbalanced at all) are significantly hindered by a single and very common (and hard to get rid of) move at the cost of only one turn.

A fair thought. It's true that SR has been and still is one of the most contreversial moves in Pokemon since its implementation. As much as it makes some Pokemon less effective it in turn makes some Pokemon more effective. And as much as it helps offense it also controls offense. Gyara and Dnite are very powerful attackers that now would have to think twice about coming in. As well as a lot of other CBers that have to be more careful with SR everywhere.

 

And as much as it makes certain Pokemon less useable they can still shine in lower tiers which is not a shame. But still, its something to ponder about I guess.

[Barrage]

A fair thought. It's true that SR has been and still is one of the most contreversial moves in Pokemon since its implementation. As much as it makes some Pokemon less effective it in turn makes some Pokemon more effective. And as much as it helps offense it also controls offense. Gyara and Dnite are very powerful attackers that now would have to think twice about coming in. As well as a lot of other CBers that have to be more careful with SR everywhere.

 

And as much as it makes certain Pokemon less useable they can still shine in lower tiers which is not a shame. But still, its something to ponder about I guess.

I just don't see SR as a necessary component of the game, and balance-wise, it is very arbitrary. It is not like SR are aimed to decrease the potency of certain powerful attackers. I think SR would have been a much more balanced mechanic if it was not influenced by type effectiveness. Spikes are ground type, but do electric types take double damage? No, they don't. I don't know why SR had to be any different, but way to go gamefreak. If SR was 12% flat, it would break sashes, balance the flying/levitating immunity to spikes, and perform a niche role with some better distribution than spikes. But this is all very hypothetical obviously. SR does keep powerful attackers (often flying/dragon types) in check, but it seriously hinders some Pokemon and again, it is probably the most cost-effective move in the whole game (which is not necessarily bad, but I would argue that it is imbalanced given its nature, specifically in regards to type effectiveness as I mentioned).

[bl0nde]

I didn't know stealth rocks were implemented. since that's the case I think gyarados will be strong, but ok for OU. We've listed some ways to deal with it and once you scare it out even (once?) it's in 1HKO range by your counter/check because of the rocks.

 

The dragon- i'd like to use mine because i nvr did

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I don't like running cliché things lol and it was totally spammed to death (boring). anyway, the whole issue I see with it is that strong stab claw is only resisted by steel and the dragon can carry flamethrower. there's not really a true counter to that which is no doubt one of the reasons for fairy implementation. steal rock does weaken it and makes it debatable, but it will probably get banned because of that possible attack combo there basically, unless you guys think you can eat dragon claw stabs (possibly off a band) with neutral defense.

[Gunthug]

I didn't know stealth rocks were implemented. since that's the case I think gyarados will be strong, but ok for OU. We've listed some ways to deal with it and once you scare it out even (once?) it's in 1HKO range by your counter/check because of the rocks.

 

The dragon- i'd like to use mine because i nvr did

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I don't like running cliché things lol and it was totally spammed to death (boring). anyway, the whole issue I see with it is that strong stab claw is only resisted by steel and the dragon can carry flamethrower. there's not really a true counter to that which is no doubt one of the reasons for fairy implementation. steal rock does weaken it and makes it debatable, but it will probably get banned because of that possible attack combo there basically, unless you guys think you can eat dragon claw stabs (possibly off a band) with neutral defense.

It's worth noting that stealth rocks are not yet implemented in game, but they'll be a part of this test since they're a gen 4 move. Also I'm not sure I see the relevance of posting your dratini, but that is a nice one

[Sacky]

^ it's a meta. It's good to discuss things like hp electric vap, bulky loom, etc to identify whether change can be beneficial. It's the same reasoning as bringing hp grass for swampert and packing eq over better coverage moves for metagross.

Up to ou tier council though.

i think the "gimmicky hp electric" is like when in UU we run almost everything whit hp grass cause quagsire 

give the gyara user a hidden to think about will counter the "safe switch" he think he is IMO

[fredrichnietze]

gyara calcs

first off we should assume 94 hp 252 att 164 speed jolly (134 stat @50) ev spread for calcs. movest waterfall/crunch/dragon dance/EQ or taunt or other.... for DD set. as DD set seems to be the most viable and dangerous one atm to me i'll only calc for that.

 

-slowbro hp elec + slack off max def

252 Atk Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 62-74 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 90-108 (44.5 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Slowbro Hidden Power Electric vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 108-128 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

what this means is a hp elec slowbro at max health can switch in vs gyarados DD set as soon as it switches in and always win, as gyara needs to dragon dance and then attack twice for a 1.2% chance of killing slowbro. slowbro can always use slak off to heal off damage if gyara does not DD up and predicts the switch and attacks.

 

-lapras bold max def + tbolt

252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 46-55 (19.4 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 69-82 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lapras Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 128-152 (70.3 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Lapras Thunder vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 160-192 (87.9 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

what this means is unless gyara runs reversal it cant beat lapras. (thunder hits bounce gyara fyi while it is in the air)

 

-weezing 252 hp/def bold

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 42-51 (24.4 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 64-76 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Weezing Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 128-152 (70.3 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Weezing Thunder vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 160-192 (87.9 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

what this means is weezing can switch in vs DD or any attack and beat gyarados every time. if weez is around half health or more it can painsplit then wow and still win.

 

-vaporeon max def bold

252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 55-65 (23.2 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 81-96 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Vaporeon Hidden Power Electric vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 116-140 (63.7 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

vaporeon wins every time

 

-dragonite cb set 96 hp 252 att 164 speed adamant (speed to beat breloom)

252 Atk Gyarados Crunch vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 47-56 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Crunch vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 70-83 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite ThunderPunch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 352-416 (193.4 - 228.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite ThunderPunch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 236-280 (129.6 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

cb dnite always wins

 

-machamp CB

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 81-96 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 120-142 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp ThunderPunch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 344-408 (189 - 224.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp ThunderPunch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 228-272 (125.2 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

machamp always wins unless previous damage

 

-kangaskhan adamant 252 hp/att @leftovers

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 81-96 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 120-142 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kangaskhan ThunderPunch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 184-220 (101 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

-slaking cb adamant 252 att/hp

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 67-79 (26 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 100-118 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking ThunderPunch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 400-472 (219.7 - 259.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

-porygon 2 252 hp 100 def 152 sp def calm (yey trace intimidate!)

-1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Porygon2: 43-52 (22.3 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Porygon2: 66-78 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- 36.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 152-180 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

ofc very little spa att invest makes that a possible or 100% ohko. im just using this set because it already existed for quiet a while in UU

 

some people have suggested dropping EQ in this thread. if you do drop it

-metagross 172 hp 252 att 84 speed adamant agility set

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 54-64 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 81-96 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 236-280 (129.6 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

if you run EQ

252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 90-106 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

FYI a +2 metagross is faster then a +1 gyarados unless you run more then 134 speed stat gyara and ofc metagross can play the same speed game.

 

-electrode again EQ kills this but

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electrode: 90-106 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Electrode Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 232-280 (127.4 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

and ofc outspeeds +1 gyara

 

ofc lanturn counters non EQ gyara too but no one will run that (or trode for that matter but hue)

i refuse to calc bliss

 

checks (assuming no intimidate/DD + free switch ofc)

 

WHY WE NEED ZAPDOS

 

 

gengar

jolteon

nidoking

medicham

phsy charzard

phsy primape

blaziken

manetric

 

 

im in a bit of a hurry so i missed things but a cursory glance makes gyara look not that bad on paper.

[lVlusay]

Thank you for the calcs. They make it even more obvious that gyarados needs to be banned. Let me elaborate.

 

I will start with slowbro. +1 Crunch does 44-53% damage to slowbro, meaning that after 1-2 spikes or some minor damage it's an easy 2 ohko. Even without it there is a chance that crunch will lower the def, which will also result in a 2 OHKO. Slowbro result: very unreliable counter.

 

Now weezing, machamp, kangashkhan and metagross. After they switch into a dragon dancing gyarados, it has a chance to waterfall flinch them, easy kill. Also, these guys have no reliable way of healing, meaning that they might switch into waterfall once or twice, but then it's basically over. Result: very unreliable counters.

 

Slaking, porygon aren't very common. Slaking would have to give up either return (as stab), eq, pursuit or fire punch for thunderpunch to cover gyarados, making it less useful. Electrode, really?

 

Lapras, dnite (under testing itself) and hp electric vaporeon (which is hard and very expensive to get) make the only decent counters. That is not enough to keep that beast in the game. Lapras and vaporeon counter salamence as well, but for some reason salamence is banned, but gyarados is not. You would have to get a few of these counters in a team to even have a chance. All these calcs are also assuming that counters are at full hp, imagine now how easy it would be to sweep mid/late game.

[ThinkNice]

4 Atk Ludicolo ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 200-236 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery lel

 

Thank you for the calcs. They make it even more obvious that gyarados needs to be banned. Let me elaborate.

 

I will start with slowbro. +1 Crunch does 44-53% damage to slowbro, meaning that after 1-2 spikes or some minor damage it's an easy 2 ohko. Even without it there is a chance that crunch will lower the def, which will also result in a 2 OHKO. Slowbro result: very unreliable counter.

 

Now weezing, machamp, kangashkhan and metagross. After they switch into a dragon dancing gyarados, it has a chance to waterfall flinch them, easy kill. Also, these guys have no reliable way of healing, meaning that they might switch into waterfall once or twice, but then it's basically over. Result: very unreliable counters.

 

Slaking, porygon aren't very common. Slaking would have to give up either return (as stab), eq, pursuit or fire punch for thunderpunch to cover gyarados, making it less useful. Electrode, really?

 

Lapras, dnite (under testing itself) and hp electric vaporeon (which is hard and very expensive to get) make the only decent counters. That is not enough to keep that beast in the game. Lapras and vaporeon counter salamence as well, but for some reason salamence is banned, but gyarados is not. You would have to get a few of these counters in a team to even have a chance. All these calcs are also assuming that counters are at full hp, imagine now how easy it would be to sweep mid/late game.

>oh flinch hax gg

 

Okay so for you basically only something with WA can counter Gyara because they can't get flinched by Waterfall? I can also see P2 becoming really common because it counters Gyarados, Flygon and Dugtrio(!) so well. It could potentially shit on Magneton too. I can see P2 being real OU material.

[Senile]

Who are these people seriously talking about Lapras? Even if it wasn't a shitty pokemon, it gets Stone Edged anyway.

[Sacky]

Thank you for the calcs. They make it even more obvious that gyarados needs to be banned. Let me elaborate.

 

I will start with slowbro. +1 Crunch does 44-53% damage to slowbro, meaning that after 1-2 spikes or some minor damage it's an easy 2 ohko. Even without it there is a chance that crunch will lower the def, which will also result in a 2 OHKO. Slowbro result: very unreliable counter.

 

Now weezing, machamp, kangashkhan and metagross. After they switch into a dragon dancing gyarados, it has a chance to waterfall flinch them, easy kill. Also, these guys have no reliable way of healing, meaning that they might switch into waterfall once or twice, but then it's basically over. Result: very unreliable counters.

 

Slaking, porygon aren't very common. Slaking would have to give up either return (as stab), eq, pursuit or fire punch for thunderpunch to cover gyarados, making it less useful. Electrode, really?

 

Lapras, dnite (under testing itself) and hp electric vaporeon (which is hard and very expensive to get) make the only decent counters. That is not enough to keep that beast in the game. Lapras and vaporeon counter salamence as well, but for some reason salamence is banned, but gyarados is not. You would have to get a few of these counters in a team to even have a chance. All these calcs are also assuming that counters are at full hp, imagine now how easy it would be to sweep mid/late game.

in fact slowbro is a very good counter of gyara..if he switch in a DD he can slack off the damage

 

gyara can not stay in a possible hp electric in slowbro 

vap hp electric is not hard or expensive to get..a perfect iv hp electric vap that is expensive and hard to get

[lVlusay]

I already answered it. Hp electric is hard and expensive to get, no all slowbros have it. Hp electric 2ohkos from the calcs above. After 1-2 spikes, gyarados easily kills a slowbro switch in. There is also a chance of a def drop from crunch...

[Sacky]

I already answered it. Hp electric is hard and expensive to get, no all slowbros have it. Hp electric 2ohkos from the calcs above. After 1-2 spikes, gyarados easily kills a slowbro switch in. There is also a chance of a def drop from crunch...

thunderbolt have a chance to cause paralizis
ice beam have a chance to freeze
fire blast have a chance to burn

i dont see that chance get in on any balance discussion =/