ThinkNice Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Does not apply to current PokeMMO Meta I figured that testing Phase I is meaningless, now that we have it in the game regardless. Thus why not begin with phase II? Testing will be done till we can confidently say of the metagame can be healthy enough with a split and gen IV moves, or if its simply better than what we have now. Use this thread to discuss the metagame of phase II (potential threats, sets, viability rankings, suspects, viable playstyles you name it). Testing will be done on Showdown using Gen IV Custom Battles. Replays might help the discussion and giving people an insight on the metagame. Keep in mind that BP of certain moves change in gen IV, which means that we will use these changes. (Hi Jump Kick 85 > 100, Outrage 90 > 120 etc). Settings: PokeMMO Pokemon + Hoenn No Legendaries PokeMMO available moves Gen IV moves: enabled Gen IV items: disabled Gen IV abilities: disabled Banned Moves: Outrage (120 base not confirmed) Banlist: Salamence, Tyranitar Viability Ranking Rank S: Rank A: Rank B: Rank C: Edited January 20, 2015 by ThinkNice Link to comment
OldKeith Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Testing Flygon and not Gyarados? Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Testing Flygon and not Gyarados? Flygon and Dragonite have dem base 120 STAB moves .Gyarados gets Stone Edge but its a suspect for another time probably. Link to comment
JSTUD Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Please require replays. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
Sacky Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 86-102 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 78-92 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Vaporeon: 96-114 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 94-112 (45.4 - 54.1%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Vaporeon: 120-142 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery i dont think flygon deserve a future ban he can hit really hard but in the adamant build is really slow..i presonaly prefeer the jolly one for this meta dragonite gonna be ban i think xD...3 stronk 5 us Link to comment
OldKeith Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Flygon is a balanced version of Salamence. While it has the same base speed, making it arguably fast for the tier, the base attack takes a considerable drop from 135 to 100. It has lower base HP by 15 points and no Intimidate. Lacking the ability to Dragon Dance also makes it pretty much forced to run a sweeper set with no setup. Let's calculate the damage it can do having an attack nature (although myself and many other comp players prefer jolly or naive): 252+Atk Choice Band Flygon Dragon Claw... vs max Def Slowbro 31.7% - 37.6% vs max Def Vaporeon 39.2% - 46% vs max Def Umbreon 31.7% - 37.6% vs max Def Dusclops 39.5% - 46.9% Forretress and Skarmory wall it with no problem, while gaining a free turn to set up a substitute or spikes. Metagros can switch in easily, as well. That is his all powerful STAB. Of course, predicting between EQ and Dragon Claw can be a crucial moment in the game, but getting locked into EQ is never ideal for a bander. I see no problems with Flygon, no reason to have a discussion about it. Let's turn to something that is OP and dominant in the OU though. Jolly Gyarados has access to intimidate, guaranteeing switches that often have little impact on its HP. Dragon Dance, easy set up, allows it to outspeed the whole tier after only one turn of setup. Because of the special bulk, it gives walls a hard time to deal with it, unless they carry hidden power electric (Bold Lanturn needs bold nature and 252 defense to live +1 EQ). STAB Waterfall is devastating, and unresisted when paired with Crunch (ohko Gengar and Starmie) and Earthquake. The setup is too easy, and should be immediately discussed for a potential ban imo. Edited January 20, 2015 by OldKeith RysPicz, Grampaaa and OrangeManiac 3 Link to comment
Sacky Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 yep i agree gya deserve a suspect test in the flygon's place Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) No Dugtrio????or metagross or blaziken heracross????????? Edited January 20, 2015 by Excelimpulse Link to comment
Anjovies Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 aight. might make a team later. gen IV moves is <3 Link to comment
Sacky Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 >dragon claw yep dclaw..but it isnt a 200 base stat + STAB move in flygon.... was dugtrio unbanned?...why? D= Link to comment
OldKeith Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) There are numerous setbacks in getting yourself locked in an Outrage. For now, Outrage is 90 BP in pokemmo so I have no idea what you are even trying to imply with it being 120. Edited January 20, 2015 by OldKeith Link to comment
Frag Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Slowbro the new vapo, i don't see any problems with dclaw. Someone make a dugtrio thread, the pen1s reckt all my team compositions. Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 What about slaking???It gets pursuit same thing with snlrlax? Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 There are numerous setbacks in getting yourself locked in an Outrage. For now, Outrage is 90 BP in pokemmo so I have no idea what you are even trying to imply with it being 120. 4th gen moves means the damage will be buffed to 4th gen standards too duh. Outrage is 2-3 turns and will most likely just 2shot any wall. So the time you switch in your wall and then eat an Outrage and switch out again you lost 2 turns already. It's not terrible to be locked into Outrage. It's not like we have fairies or steel types that can abuse it for setup. 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 264-312 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 160-190 (56.3 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 76-90 (22.7 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Forretress: 82-97 (23.1 - 27.4%) -- 68.1% chance to 4HKO as for your Gyarados 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon2: 99-117 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 12% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 220 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 75-89 (25.3 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO +1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 121-144 (36.2 - 43.1%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery+1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Vaporeon: 161-190 (34.7 - 41%) -- 68.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Link to comment
Sacky Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 There are numerous setbacks in getting yourself locked in an Outrage. For now, Outrage is 90 BP in pokemmo so I have no idea what you are even trying to imply with it being 120. maybe he talk about the STAB claw in flygon..that's 120 but..why is dugtrio unbanned?..WHY?! Link to comment
OldKeith Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 The discussion with Flygon should begin the moment when Outrage will be buffed to Gen IV. Even at 120 BP, locking yourself in an Outrage, and being frail will guarantee Flygon will die the next turn, even if it kills something; I don't see it as being a problem and I would still find Dragon Claw more reliable. Nice to see your Calcs with Gyarados. However, Bold Cloyster and Vaporeon need Hidden Power Electric to beat it. Weezing, Porygon2 can be reliable counters though, but Gyarados is still too much of a threat for the rest of the tier. Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 The discussion with Flygon should begin the moment when Outrage will be buffed to Gen IV. Even at 120 BP, locking yourself in an Outrage, and being frail will guarantee Flygon will die the next turn, even if it kills something; I don't see it as being a problem and I would still find Dragon Claw more reliable. Nice to see your Calcs with Gyarados. However, Bold Cloyster and Vaporeon need Hidden Power Electric to beat it. Weezing, Porygon2 can be reliable counters though, but Gyarados is still too much of a threat for the rest of the tier. All Vaporeon needs is Roar, are you forgetting Stealth Rocks? There is no way Outrage and Hi Jump Kick are going to not be tweaked to their 4th gen standards. So if we are talking about gen IV moves we might as well be talking about them, I can ask Dorkshoode if you want. As for your Dclaw vs Outrage comment, that's why you usually run both. Link to comment
OldKeith Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 It's nice to consider a potential future meta with moves, items and pokemon, but let's discuss the one we have now, until a full passing to gen 4 is made. Please do not say Stealth Rocks and 120BP Outrage until it happens, let's work with what we have and adapt if such an update happens. Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 It's nice to consider a potential future meta with moves, items and pokemon, but let's discuss the one we have now, until a full passing to gen 4 is made. Please do not say Stealth Rocks and 120BP Outrage until it happens, let's work with what we have and adapt if such an update happens. M8, its a test. 4th gen moves (including SR) have been confirmed to happen eventually(tm) by Darkshade. This is just something we do alongside playing the game. (as making teams on Showdown doesnt take much effort). Robofiend 1 Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 M8, its a test. 4th gen moves (including SR) have been confirmed to happen eventually(tm) by Darkshade. This is just something we do alongside playing the game. (as making teams on Showdown doesnt take much effort). If we're testing gen 4 moves wouldn't it be wise to unban mence and ttar because of stealth rocks and other moves like roost that let pokes heal off the power moves? Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Let's keep focus on the aforementioned pokes, Dragonite and Flygon. The most I've seen on dnite is "it's too strong". I'm sure Gyara will get its turn soon. As well as Dugtrio. I'll post my thoughts tonight after my lab exam and classes. I'm pro-Dnite ban; anti-Flygon ban. CB Outrage is tough but forces a switch which is never beneficial. RysPicz, OldKeith and lVlusay 3 Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) If we're testing gen 4 moves wouldn't it be wise to unban mence and ttar because of stealth rocks and other moves like roost that let pokes heal off the power moves? SR helps Mence more than it hurts him, turns a lot of 2HKOs into OHKOs or 3HKOs into 2HKOs. Ttar is unaffected by SR it only helps him out massively and also gets another huge buff in Stone Edge. I talked to Darkshade and he said he isn't sure about the Outrage buff because they might keep it 90 if it means there will be more balance (less pokes banned). So I'm fine with taking of Flygon as a suspect then. He is probably worthy of a suspect but Gyarados might be a bigger 'problem'. edit: Outrage banned move, check OP Edited January 20, 2015 by ThinkNice OldKeith 1 Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Either way we're gonna end up with a whole uber tier again at this rate. If we ban dnite Gyardos is next then metagross. I don't get why we don't stop the banning and lets see how the metagame develops like we did before. Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Either way we're gonna end up with a whole uber tier again at this rate. If we ban dnite Gyardos is next then metagross. I don't get why we don't stop the banning and lets see how the metagame develops like we did before. You must not know what a suspect means kid. Link to comment
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