YagamiNoir Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) Team preview pls I don't understand how that relates to the bolded part. Without team preview, ironically, this is more manageable -- well, the fact that you can send out something unexpected to pick up sleep, that is. EDIT: Page King. Edited March 29, 2015 by YagamiNoir Link to comment
Shaniqualela Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I don't understand how that relates to the bolded part. Without team preview, ironically, this is more manageable -- well, the fact that you can send out something unexpected to pick up sleep, that is. EDIT: Page King. how do you know which pokemon is best for you to let sleep without team preview? you might put something else to sleep that you really need for the match. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Fixed. Grass types aren't immune to sleep completely, it's just that the most common Sleep moves are Powder-ish moves. solid nitpick, you're right (no sarcasm) Link to comment
raaidn Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Exeggutor, Hypno, Vileplume render Breloom useless. But what if we don't feel like bringing full on homo teams just to counter one poke, and later be time claused? LF Zebra Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 But what if we don't feel like bringing full on uguu teams just to counter one poke, and later be time claused? LF Zebra Then you put Sleep Talk + 3 Attacks on a Pokémon. hue Link to comment
Shaniqualela Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Then you put Sleep Talk + 3 Attacks on a Pokémon. hue and that pokemon has to be faster than base 70's otherwise it subs and sees this, then just switches out until later Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 and that pokemon has to be faster than base 70's otherwise it subs and sees this, then just switches out until later Yea I know how hard it is to find a Pokémon with a higher base than 70, all I saw in the tournament was like 50 base speed pokes. UU so slow. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
YagamiNoir Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 and that pokemon has to be faster than base 70's otherwise it subs and sees this, then just switches out until later ..So? What it now put to sleep was a Sleep Talker, which means nothing on the team is as much dead weight as you think it is due to Spore, nor can Breloom do it again until it wakes up, meaning tons more things counter it. Also depends on the moves of the Sleep Talk Pokemon I suppose, it might be too much of a gamble to be called reliable if the Sleep Talk Pokemon doesn't have most of it's moves being able to hit Breloom hard enough with, but at least it's effective in some situations, even if it's slower. Heck, you don't even have to stay in with your Sleep Talk Pokemon on Breloom, all it's supposed to do is to activate Sleep clause, you can just use something else that isn't crippled by Sleep now that it can't do it again which is pretty much most Fighting type resists. Sleep Talk also kinda answers your former question in terms of the whole team preview thing. Sure you kinda need to keep your counter in fit shape to do it's job so preferably you'd keep it safe for other things, but this is kinda relevant to practically anything that carries sleep; you're obviously not going to put your sweeper to sleep or something, and although perhaps say Surf is kind of an easy move to switch into for Breloom it otherwise can't really come in as much as you think it can. If you have a Sleep Talker on your team, it's the best thing to shove out. If not, stick what you think is the least risky. Link to comment
OldKeith Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 ..So? What it now put to sleep was a Sleep Talker, which means nothing on the team is as much dead weight as you think it is due to Spore, nor can Breloom do it again until it wakes up, meaning tons more things counter it. Also depends on the moves of the Sleep Talk Pokemon I suppose, it might be too much of a gamble to be called reliable if the Sleep Talk Pokemon doesn't have most of it's moves being able to hit Breloom hard enough with, but at least it's effective in some situations, even if it's slower. Heck, you don't even have to stay in with your Sleep Talk Pokemon on Breloom, all it's supposed to do is to activate Sleep clause, you can just use something else that isn't crippled by Sleep now that it can't do it again which is pretty much most Fighting type resists. Sleep Talk also kinda answers your former question in terms of the whole team preview thing. Sure you kinda need to keep your counter in fit shape to do it's job so preferably you'd keep it safe for other things, but this is kinda relevant to practically anything that carries sleep; you're obviously not going to put your sweeper to sleep or something, and although perhaps say Surf is kind of an easy move to switch into for Breloom it otherwise can't really come in as much as you think it can. If you have a Sleep Talker on your team, it's the best thing to shove out. If not, stick what you think is the least risky. Let's not pretend gimmicks are commonly used now. Nobody runs sleep talk to absorb sleep. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ..So? What it now put to sleep was a Sleep Talker, which means nothing on the team is as much dead weight as you think it is due to Spore, nor can Breloom do it again until it wakes up, meaning tons more things counter it. Also depends on the moves of the Sleep Talk Pokemon I suppose, it might be too much of a gamble to be called reliable if the Sleep Talk Pokemon doesn't have most of it's moves being able to hit Breloom hard enough with, but at least it's effective in some situations, even if it's slower. Heck, you don't even have to stay in with your Sleep Talk Pokemon on Breloom, all it's supposed to do is to activate Sleep clause, you can just use something else that isn't crippled by Sleep now that it can't do it again which is pretty much most Fighting type resists. Sleep Talk also kinda answers your former question in terms of the whole team preview thing. Sure you kinda need to keep your counter in fit shape to do it's job so preferably you'd keep it safe for other things, but this is kinda relevant to practically anything that carries sleep; you're obviously not going to put your sweeper to sleep or something, and although perhaps say Surf is kind of an easy move to switch into for Breloom it otherwise can't really come in as much as you think it can. If you have a Sleep Talker on your team, it's the best thing to shove out. If not, stick what you think is the least risky. One problem I have noticed with breloom is that people sometimes use substitute instead of spore the first turn they are in and that can mess things up if you bring in something to absorb sleep that is slower than breloom or takes a lot of damage from a focus punch. And just like keith said, sleep talk is a gimmick for the most part outside of a few pokemon like sleep talk whirlwind grumpig and hariyama possibly (although the bulk up set is superior still). Link to comment
YagamiNoir Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Let's not pretend gimmicks are commonly used now. Nobody runs sleep talk to absorb sleep. I simply mentioned it as an option, I figured no one uses it anyways, although people shouldn't be disinclined to means that are effective but rarely used. I suppose it's a matter of viability. Edited March 30, 2015 by YagamiNoir felix 1 Link to comment
YagamiNoir Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) One problem I have noticed with breloom is that people sometimes use substitute instead of spore the first turn they are in and that can mess things up if you bring in something to absorb sleep that is slower than breloom or takes a lot of damage from a focus punch. And just like keith said, sleep talk is a gimmick for the most part outside of a few pokemon like sleep talk whirlwind grumpig and hariyama possibly (although the bulk up set is superior still). Prediction into the equation I guess, although I suppose the risk is kinda big and the odds are in favour to Breloom. Although less likely, it's possible to predict the Sub. If this thing is to be banned it's probably under support, because insta-disable and I suppose nasty prediction games in between. EDIT: Oops, double post, did not mean to do that, pardon me. Edited March 30, 2015 by YagamiNoir Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I think Sleep Talk would be a much more viable option if we had our old sleep mechanics. Using Sleep Talk is pretty much a gamble after one turn of sleep. Link to comment
OldKeith Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Another possible counter would be sub disable Haunter. But, then again, Haunter... Link to comment
YagamiNoir Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Another possible counter would be sub disable Haunter. But, then again, Haunter... I personally think Taunt is probably better at dealing with SubSeed and stopping other shenanigans it decides to pull off, although I suppose having a Sub also makes it immune to those things. Put Misdreavus into the list as well, I guess. Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Another possible counter would be sub disable Haunter. But, then again, Haunter... Or just Sludge Bomb it, 252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 212-252 (157 - 186.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO Actually why isn't Haunter used that much, it's awesome. 252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Absol: 106-126 (75.7 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO don't have time to do more calcs actually Link to comment
OldKeith Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Or just Sludge Bomb it, 252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 212-252 (157 - 186.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO Actually why isn't Haunter used that much, it's awesome. 252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Absol: 106-126 (75.7 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO don't have time to do more calcs actually Because Sneasel (+ countless dark types) ohko it with Pursuit? Link to comment
Gunthug Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Impish Feather Dance Pidgeot: [spoiler]Defending:-2 252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pidgeot: 117-138 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery-2 252+ Atk Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pidgeot: 54-64 (14.5 - 17.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery Attacking:4 Atk Pidgeot Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 264-312 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO4 Atk Pidgeot Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 43-52 (13.2 - 16%) -- possible 7HKO[/spoiler] Bold Dual Screen Xatu: [spoiler]Defending:252+ Atk Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 32+ Def Xatu through Reflect: 70-84 (20.9 - 25.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 32+ Def Xatu through Reflect: 39-46 (11.6 - 13.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever Attacking:0 SpA Xatu Psychic vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 282-332 (106.8 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO0 SpA Xatu Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 282-332 (87 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO If you breed Feather Dance + Screens Xatu, it gets even sadder. Or if Xatu gets ORAS Air Slash someday (idk if it already does).[/spoiler] EDIT: I should mention Feather Dance Pidgeot lends itself well to a Sleep Talk set. I don't believe feather dance works when breloom is behind a sub, which is a pretty common occurrence if you're trying to bring something in on it. Also, why rock tomb instead of thunderpunch? fixed it Edited March 30, 2015 by Gunthug DrCraig 1 Link to comment
OldKeith Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 You're right, just throwing it out there since I use it. If you catch Breloom out of a sub or on a spore, Rest Talk Pidgeot will have some fun. In the absence of Rock Slide, some rebels like to run Rock Tomb. I don't, but decided I might as well throw that in too. but then, why would you featherdance instead of wing attacking? Link to comment
raaidn Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Just send this piece of shit (aka mushroom) back to OU, problem solved. NikhilR and OldKeith 2 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Touche. I just intended to post the calcs and leave the thread, not much thought went into it. I do like the idea of a defensive xatu Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I do like the idea of a defensive xatu needs more magic bounce and roost though. I'll admit there are some decent counters to breloom like hypno/sleep talk grumpig/defensive vileplume but I still think breloom probably needs to be moved up, really limits team building when you need to run 2 counters to breloom so you're not screwed once breloom puts one of them to asleep. Link to comment
OldKeith Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Xatu is quite good, but Pidgeot has one advantage over it as a Breloom check. With Rest Talk Pidgeot, if Breloom leads with Spore, you have the option of switching in on sleep and are guaranteed to immediately threaten non-speed shroom either via wall or via dommage. Even with Early Bird, I read in this thread that Xatu may still lose turns to sleep; Pidgeot can surpass Xatu thanks to overall balk and because sleep can't prevent it from doing what it needs to do. So there's that. Well, how nice. Pidgeot forces Breloom out. Too bad the rest of the UU tier shits on it. karimologia 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Wow, you sure got me there, sorry for contributing. You can go back to thinking inside the box anytime. Keith is right though - generally, if you've gotta reach so far outside the box for a counter to something (I say counter, but pidg is more like a check), that's a pretty good sign that something is broken. And Fearow generally outclasses pidgeot in UU Speaking of outside the box counters, how about godspider? TheRealPhatiman 1 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Keith is right though - generally, if you've gotta reach so far outside the box for a counter to something (I say counter, but pidg is more like a check), that's a pretty good sign that something is broken. And Fearow generally outclasses pidgeot in UU Speaking of outside the box counters, how about godspider? Ariados will beat breloom as long as no rock tomb on breloom (which is never seen). 252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ariados: 46-55 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- 10.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Breloom ThunderPunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ariados: 62-74 (35.2 - 42%) -- 84.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ariados: 84-100 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Ariados Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 106-126 (77.9 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Link to comment
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