OldKeith Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) While the base stats do not seem to scary, barring attack, the fantastic move set it has access to it pretty scary for UU. Notable moves it gets: Spore Superpower Focus Punch Thunderpunch Leech Seed Substitute Synthesis Swords Dance Mach Punch The possibilities are endless, but most often you will see people running Adamant with maximum attack and speed investment, to pick up spore-hit-runs. Counters: Vileplume, Gligar, Claydol, Exeggutor Are they enough though, in a tier where Electric+Fighting destroys pretty much anything else? Edited February 22, 2015 by LeTyrone RysPicz, TheRealPhatiman, DrCraig and 3 others 6 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Counters: Vileplume, Gligar, Claydol, Exeggutor Defensive King/ Queen could work as well OldKeith 1 Link to comment
TatsuyaSuo Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 that 4x weakness to flying though Link to comment
OldKeith Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 that 4x weakness to flying though That is not relevant. Tyranitar, Dragonite and Salamence also had 4x weaknesses and that did not stop them from getting banned. Robofiend, karimologia, Draekyn and 1 other 4 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 It's the most reliable sleep inducer in the game currently (bar Sect, but hey we're not talking about ubers are we), not only in UU (lol). For now I see it even more threatening as Marowak- it's faster and has more viable sets compared to Maroswag. Almighty Spore paired with it's moderate speed and raw power of Focus Punch practicly guarantees Loom to either cripple or even kill something that comes against it. I wouldn't also count Claydol and Gligar as counters much- they lack reliable recovery, compared to King/Queen (morning sun/ moonlight), Exegg (synth, but lol wtf what is Exegg even doing there) and Plume (also synth). Both gligar and Claydol gets 4hkoed by Focus Punch also, meaning it enters, eats a focus punch, eats another while breaking the sub and it's left with ~~50% HP. And, if someone misspredicts, and goes into it's wall when Loom SDances, it'll eat a tasty +2 STAB Superpower. It will be like TTar: obviously overpowered for UU, especially when it lacks good defensive walls. You had no problems with banning Slaking or Chansey (...)- let the Mushroom Warrior join them (though Chansey should really come to UU). Draekyn 1 Link to comment
Havsha Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 The old OU tier was accurate, Breloom should be in OU not UU. Link to comment
OldKeith Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 The old OU tier was accurate, Breloom should be in OU not UU. Usage wise, Breloom was not popular enough to become OU. That is why discussions exist now, to establish the BL tier. TheRealPhatiman 1 Link to comment
caughtem Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) 0 SpA Hypno Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 120-144 (88.2 - 105.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO 0 SpA Hypno Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 120-144 (71.8 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Hypno: 73-87 (38 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Breloom ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Hypno: 50-59 (26 - 30.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery + hypno has insomnia so no Spore Edited February 21, 2015 by caughtem Gunthug 1 Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Usage wise, Breloom was not popular enough to become OU. That is why discussions exist now, to establish the BL tier. Based off of one month for the meta to adapt. What was that word you guys were throwing around...Preemptive? Especially now. Those usage stats are irrelevant with dnite gone. Imo brelppm will become used a lot more in ou with access to spore and threats that usually threaten it like dnitw and mence gone. Edited February 21, 2015 by Excelimpulse Link to comment
semjon Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Based off of one month for the meta to adapt. What was that word you guys were throwing around...Preemptive? Especially now. Those usage stats are irrelevant with dnite gone. Imo brelppm will become used a lot more in ou with access to spore and threats that usually threaten it like dnitw and mence gone. I think i read sth about all 2 month will the usage stats been checked and so the tiers adjusted. So chill and enjoy. KingBowser 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Based off of one month for the meta to adapt. What was that word you guys were throwing around...Preemptive? Especially now. Those usage stats are irrelevant with dnite gone. Imo brelppm will become used a lot more in ou with access to spore and threats that usually threaten it like dnitw and mence gone. I think i read sth about all 2 month will the usage stats been checked and so the tiers adjusted. So chill and enjoy. Semjon is right, and IIRC it's actually more frequently than 2 months (every 2 weeks, maybe?) So if Breloom hits the ~4% usage mark in OU, it'll be removed from UU the next time they do a usage assessment. Perhaps this is why the council was hesitant to do insta-bans, and why theyre hesitant to make bans such as marowak and machamp (whereas with Chansey, it'll literally never be used in OU so that's a safer one to insta-ban. Not that I necessarily agree with the chansey insta ban, but I can see the logic behind it.) Regarding people's constant criticism of the UU tier so far, I think it's a little hypocritical. The same people who have been impatiently waiting and yearning for a UU tier since January are suddenly critical of the hastiness with which it was thrown together. Personally, I fall in the first group - I've been impatiently waiting for the tier since january, and now that it's here, I'm excited to be a part of shaping the tier that I love so much - no matter how much work it needs. If you guys are worried about training comps that may end up getting banned, well, deal with it. That's a risk you run in a constantly evolving metagame, and avoiding that risk is selfish imo. edit: i realize that this last paragraph isn't really relevant to this thread, so I'll repost it in the UU cutoff thread if anyone wants to carry on discussion Edited February 21, 2015 by Gunthug Noad and fredrichnietze 2 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) ok so way i see it there is going to be 2x version of breloom maybe 3x cb version of cb adamant or jolly 252 att/speed super t punch mach spore or fp or bullet seed and leftovers / lum 252 att/speed adamant/jolly sub fp/super spore / leech tpunch /mach and maybe SD set leftovers / lum 252 att/speed sd mach super tpunch problem with the first set is low number of possible switch ins + bad staying power + cb lock so predictions not optional. problem with the second is getting the coverage moves + the other stuff you need to set up. problem with 3rd set is setting up + getting revenge killed. calcs for cb set [spoiler] vs max def vile 252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 67-80 (36.8 - 43.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery vile can wall this set all day and 0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 152-182 (111.7 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO max def impish gligar 252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 59-70 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- 62.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Gligar Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 132-160 (97 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO max def moonlight queen 252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 67-79 (34 - 40.1%) -- 37.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery cm claydol 252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 59-70 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- 87.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery max def hypno 252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hypno: 76-90 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery max def pig 252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grumpig: 79-93 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery max def parasect 252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Parasect: 70-83 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery max def exeggutor 252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 67-80 (33.1 - 39.6%) -- 21.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery bulky rest/nat cure wall ataria 252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 65-77 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery [/spoiler] calcs for stall sub set [spoiler] i'll do em later in a rush today to finish b4 library closes. [/spoiler] calcs for SD set [spoiler] everything is 1hko'd or 2hko'd. if breloom sets up and you dont have something that can either, tank a hit then outspeed and 1hko breloom, or outspeed and revenge 1hko breloom after tanking a mach you are finished. [/spoiler] freds thoughts on cb set. well several things can wall it. lots of things can revenge kill or force it out. lots of sub + disable pokes that can tank one move can disable breloom to force him to use a less effective move. however 2/3's of the counters i listed are never used or i have only seen used once by one person. also breloom makes many pokemon unusable in UU as they become easy/free switchs in for it or breloom just hard counters them. freds thoughts on sub set. well since sleep got nerfed it has been bad in general on most things. fast spore breloom is a exception. breloom has 100% chance to sleep for minimium one turn. in combination with sub that guarantees breloom wont be hit unless it's hp is so low it can not make a sub. even with 33% chance to wake turn one, that means you have to have a one turn sleep 5 times in a row or be able to tank multiple hits. rng is weighted against your pokemon having insombia like waking ability's unless you are using banette/hypno/primeape. i could mention the early bird pokemon but i have no idea how that works with our special pokemmo sleep mechanics. anyways the point is, you have to have at least two pokemon with the bulk to tank brelooms attacks and let one get put to sleep and have the other take on breloom making it much harder to beat. freds thoughts on SD set. very scary if it can set up. since you dont know what version of breloom you will be fighting until after it gives itself away and beating each set requires using different conflicting strategies, and on top of all of this countering any set requires having multiple different pokemon on every team to deal with each version. i think we should ban breloom to BL/OU. (sorry this is a bit rushed) Edited February 21, 2015 by fredrichnietze OldKeith and karimologia 2 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) i think we should keep Loom around. It's scary but it has non-specific checks, which is more than you could say of a lot of UU's. Hypno might be king of the counters as it can't get slept and resists fighting. Xatu could work in a pinch for stopping Mach Punches or Superpower, but it's going to regret taking a CB Tpunch. Early Bird on Xatu or Dodrio could work as a sleep counter (with current sleep mechs, you'll be sleeping for 0-2 turns with Early Bird) even though Sync is usually preferred. Generally, status seems like it doesn't buy you much because of how fast UU matches go. Edited February 22, 2015 by Robofiend Link to comment
YagamiNoir Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) Still waiting for Bullet Seed buff, if it's not in there. Pitiful 10 BP is bad. That being said, I'd say the lack of a reliable Grass STAB gives it a lot more easy checks and counters, Claydol being an example. Something to note, though, is that first turn Spore is so obvious that you could Sub first before Sporing on something you either scare off or are faster than, allowing a free Focus Punch hit, or to avoid wasting your Spore on something that is best for fodder on the enemy team instead of a key threat. Things like bulky Misdreavus, Hypno being the best counter, Exeggutor and others I'm sure can take care of; nobody seems to have thought of running something like Return or Double-Edge, though, given it allows it to 2HKO stuff previously said although it doesn't provide much coverage typing wise. Edited February 26, 2015 by YagamiNoir Link to comment
Archinix Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 [spoiler] i'll do em later in a rush today to finish b4 library closes. [/spoiler] still waiting m8 fredrichnietze 1 Link to comment
Pedrr Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Adamant Breelom Sword Dance : Superpower vs Skarmory 252HP / DEF +10%DEF = around 88% Link to comment
Vorred Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Adamant Breelom Sword Dance : Superpower vs Skarmory 252HP / DEF +10%DEF = around 88% ok? Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Adamant Breelom Sword Dance : Superpower vs Skarmory 252HP / DEF +10%DEF = around 88% try using this https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ and highlight the calc and use "ctr + c" to copy and paste normally with right click options or "ctr + shift + v" +2 252+ Atk Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 129-153 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO exact numbers are better then "about this much XXX" im not going to touch the relevance. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Adamant Breelom Sword Dance : Superpower vs Skarmory 252HP / DEF +10%DEF = around 88% the "viability" of breloom in OU doesn't really relate to whether or not it is OP in UU. gbwead 1 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 if Loom can learn AA then Vileplume doesn't count as a check Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 if Loom can learn AA then Vileplume doesn't count as a check it cant [spoiler] srs this took me less then 30 secs to check moveset [/spoiler] Link to comment
Robofiend Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 srs this took me less then 30 secs to check moveset 30s is a long time when ur lazy RysPicz and flavajabari 2 Link to comment
gbwead Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 What about Noctowl (cyclone, heat wave/aeral ace) or Banette or Primeape (bulk)? They are all immune to spore. Even delibird (immune to spore, 75 base speed, ice beam stab to OS breloom, destiny bond to kill substitute breelom) can get rid of this nuisance. I'm not much of a UU player but I don't see how breloom is gonna be a game breaker. Link to comment
Toast Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Noctowl is bad. Banette is also bad. Primeape is outclassed. and lol delibird Robofiend 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I don't care that they are bad as long as they are good enough to beat breloom (ok maybe not delibird XD). Plus, i'm pretty sure any sleep talk or snore user can come up with a decent build to counter breloom. Link to comment
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