[UU Discussion] Breloom (remains UU)

[Toast]

I don't care that they are bad as long as they are good enough to beat breloom (ok maybe not delibird XD).

 

Plus, i'm pretty sure any sleep talk or snore user can come up with a decent build to counter breloom.

the pokes you listed doesn't really stop breloom anyways, noctowl could probably be killed by a tpunch, banette has a terrible movepool and the only thing it could really do to breloom is w-o-w it. primeape would probably beat it

[gbwead]

If you want to play safe, just get hypno i guess. I am jsut sayign that they are some options out there that may not be perfect for all the breloom movesets but they still should be considered in some cases.

Edited March 2, 2015 by lamerb

[OldKeith]

Except for Hypno with its Insomnia, Breloom is a devastating force due to its speed investment and the ability to pull off spores and break/destabilize teams. Although sleep was nerfed to 1-3 turns, people seem to greatly underestimate the capabilities of spore. There are ways to get rid of a Hypno, pursuit trapping is a thing now, and it hits him hard.

[OrangeManiac]

Breloom sure is powerful as heck but those mentioned counters are pretty hard counters. I feel like it's like the old Fearow - it destroys everything around it but if you teambuild to have counters against it like Steelix or Rock types for it back in the day then it might not actually be that insane. Now it's mostly Exeggcutor, Vileplume, Gligar and Hypno which can really take the momentum away from Breloom and two of those are immune to the notorious SubSeed set. The difference with Breloom, of course, is that with SporePunch first of all it does much more damage to these counters so after you let something to sleep whatever of these counters will come in will not like it.

 

252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Vileplume: 80-94 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 80-95 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

After taking this hard hit, though, they can set up sun or Hypno can Calm Mind but is the damage they'll take in the switch in too much? I mean, it might be.. I don't know. Also the fact something has needed to put to sleep in order to "gain this momentum".

It probably is too much for the metagame but as it seems we're going with the "let's have tournaments, get usage and see feedback" kind of way of running these then I guess the best would be doing the same with this.


Edit: Pls gib grass-type immunity to Spore pl0x

Edited March 2, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[YagamiNoir]

Breloom sure is powerful as heck but those mentioned counters are pretty hard counters. I feel like it's like the old Fearow - it destroys everything around it but if you teambuild to have counters against it like Steelix or Rock types for it back in the day then it might not actually be that insane. Now it's mostly Exeggcutor, Vileplume, Gligar and Hypno which can really take the momentum away from Breloom and two of those are immune to the notorious SubSeed set. The difference with Breloom, of course, is that with SporePunch first of all it does much more damage to these counters so after you let something to sleep whatever of these counters will come in will not like it.

 

252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Vileplume: 80-94 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 80-95 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

After taking this hard hit, though, they can set up sun or Hypno can Calm Mind but is the damage they'll take in the switch in too much? I mean, it might be.. I don't know. Also the fact something has needed to put to sleep in order to "gain this momentum".

It probably is too much for the metagame but as it seems we're going with the "let's have tournaments, get usage and see feedback" kind of way of running these then I guess the best would be doing the same with this.


Edit: Pls gib grass-type immunity to Spore pl0x

I personally think the damage shouldn't be that big of a hassle given their access to reliable recovery. Besides, there's 0 reason to have to set up Sun or something when you can OHKO with even an uninvested Psychic or Sludge Bomb depending on what you use; Hypno OHKOes with an uninvested Psychic as well, so I'm putting only one calc since if this can kill the others definitely will. In addition, there are plentiful things with reliable recovery, resistance, and the ability the OHKO it back (and all this is faster than Breloom) being the Nido couple and Espeon. Note that sleep is also nerfed, so it's not as crippling as it used to be. 

 

0 Hypno Psychic vs. 0/0 Breloom: 122-144 (90.3 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Edited March 2, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[OrangeManiac]

I personally think the damage shouldn't be that big of a hassle given their access to reliable recovery. Besides, there's 0 reason to have to set up Sun or something when you can OHKO with even an uninvested Psychic or Sludge Bomb depending on what you use; Hypno OHKOes with an uninvested Psychic as well, so I'm putting only one calc since if this can kill the others definitely will. In addition, there are plentiful things with reliable recovery, resistance, and the ability the OHKO it back (and all this is faster than Breloom) being the Nido couple and Espeon. Note that sleep is also nerfed, so it's not as crippling as it used to be. 

 

0 Hypno Psychic vs. 0/0 Breloom: 122-144 (90.3 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

0 reason to set up Sun?

My whole point was that when Breloom hits its Focus Punch after its Sub is gone, there's nothing it can do these two mentioned grass type since it barely has even a neutral move on them (unless it runs Return or something). So when you know your opponent is going to switch out Breloom, you basically have a pretty safe prediction to go for the sun and possibly even sweep your opponent with this "free turn". So basically using Breloom can be a double-edges sword against these Pokemon. That was my whole point.

Also the fact that sleep is nerfed doesn't still take away the fact you can still beat pretty much anything in 1v1 situation since you Spore them, Sub and Focus Punch - only thing to prevent this happening is 1 turn sleep to break the Sub which needs insane luck to work repeatedly since after wake up and breaking Sub Breloom for using Spore and Substitute again until opponent sleeps longer than 1 turn. When you just switch in and out a Pokemon you haven't consumed a single sleep turn so when you give up a sleep fodder it's pretty much done for the day.

[YagamiNoir]

0 reason to set up Sun?

My whole point was that when Breloom hits its Focus Punch after its Sub is gone, there's nothing it can do these two mentioned grass type since it barely has even a neutral move on them (unless it runs Return or something). So when you know your opponent is going to switch out Breloom, you basically have a pretty safe prediction to go for the sun and possibly even sweep your opponent with this "free turn". So basically using Breloom can be a double-edges sword against these Pokemon. That was my whole point.

Also the fact that sleep is nerfed doesn't still take away the fact you can still beat pretty much anything in 1v1 situation since you Spore them, Sub and Focus Punch - only thing to prevent this happening is 1 turn sleep to break the Sub which needs insane luck to work repeatedly since after wake up and breaking Sub Breloom for using Spore and Substitute again until opponent sleeps longer than 1 turn. When you just switch in and out a Pokemon you haven't consumed a single sleep turn so when you give up a sleep fodder it's pretty much done for the day.

Ah. I kinda interpreted that as your opinion of that stuff being unreliable, in which case if you do find the mushroom a problem, it'd be better to just outright kill it, if you don't want another sleep disable happening again.

 

 The difference with Breloom, of course, is that with SporePunch first of all it does much more damage to these counters so after you let something to sleep whatever of these counters will come in will not like it.

 

252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Vileplume: 80-94 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 80-95 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

After taking this hard hit, though, they can set up sun or Hypno can Calm Mind but is the damage they'll take in the switch in too much? I mean, it might be.. I don't know. Also the fact something has needed to put to sleep in order to "gain this momentum".
 

 

As you said, is the damage they take too much? Do they enjoy taking that hit as they come in? No, and yes, that is a lot, even for a resist. Breloom does lose a lot of momentum as they wake up, but it depends on how quickly you respond to it if you do find it problematic to your team. Ghosts are pretty easy switches to it because no more HP Ghost, although stuff like Iron Tail and even Rock Slide can hurt the more squishy Ghost called Haunter. Also, that scenario is also not necessarily reliably achieved against those Grass types. 

 

EDIT: 0 reason to set up Sun being you don't have to set up Sun to beat a Breloom with those two because of their SE STABs; the scenario below shows it kinda doesn't even work anyway. 

 

T1: Breloom puts something to sleep, the Grass types in particular.

T2:Breloom either sets up Sub or directly goes for Focus Punch, under the scenario that you assume they do stay in. 

T3: If it uses Sub, it gets a free FPunch. If it goes for FPUnch during T2, the second one might possibly kill depending on the roll. Probably not. They wake up this turn, and use Sunny Day. At this point Breloom is still behind a Sub or you're at like 10% ish health at this point. If you're that Exeggutor, you might not even be there. This is why directly attacking it is better. 

T4: Breloom's Sub breaks, but Vileplume/Exeggutor either die or get put to sleep again. I think even if it attacked, Breloom could still put them back to sleep and not care much. 

 

Personally having some Defense investment to combat this thing is probably the better option, since Focus Punch is not an attack you cushion with resistance alone. The SporePunch combo is scary, but provided these counters aren't put to sleep (you usually don't send your counter to eat Spore unless you want to waste a Lum Berry), a Focus Punch resist that isn't weak to a coverage move (like what I've listed) shouldn't have too much problems. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[TatsuyaSuo]

Scyther can witch in on a focus punch since it has 4x resistance and ohko Breloom with stab 4x AA, but if breloom is behind a sub, scyther is either getting spored or ko'd by thunderpunch

 

252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Scyther: 81-95 (28.7 - 33.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Breloom Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Scyther: 216-256 (76.5 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[OldKeith]

Just mentioning that in pokemmo Breloom does not have access to Rock Slide. It only does by TM, so gen 4+.

[BurntZebra]

Just mentioning that in pokemmo Breloom does not have access to Rock Slide. It only does by TM, so gen 4+.

rock tomb though

[raaidn]

Bump

 

Why is this still UU, It's OU even on Smogon where I'm pretty sure they have more counters for it.

[DrCraig]

There are a lot of answers for fighting/electric coverage but that 100% accuracy spore is pretty brutal.

[OldKeith]

All those answers will come into a spore, and lose the momentum of the match. Breloom is a huge offensive threat and can help dismantle teams, forcing people to need to bring 2 breloom counters on the same team to be safe from huge damage.

[Tyrone]

Exeggutor, Hypno, Vileplume render Breloom useless.

[OldKeith]

Exeggutor, Hypno, Vileplume render Breloom useless.

 

While bold Exeggutor and Vileplume can render Breloom offensively useless, they can take a spore to the face and allow the Breloom user to gain momentum by a switch.

 

Hypno just gets slowly damaged by sub seed Breloom.

[YagamiNoir]

While bold Exeggutor and Vileplume can render Breloom offensively useless, they can take a spore to the face and allow the Breloom user to gain momentum by a switch.

 

Hypno just gets slowly damaged by sub seed Breloom.

And why should the asleep Exeggutor and Vileplume stay in, exactly? Well, I suppose to avoid risk, but it's not like a Breloom is going to sit there unless it predicts the double switch.

 

Breloom still can't break it. At all. Bar say I suppose Double-Edge or something. If necessary it can just Taunt it to stop more utility shenanigans. 

[OldKeith]

And why should the asleep Exeggutor and Vileplume stay in, exactly? Well, I suppose to avoid risk, but it's not like a Breloom is going to sit there unless it predicts the double switch.

 

Breloom still can't break it. At all. Bar say I suppose Double-Edge or something. If necessary it can just Taunt it to stop more utility shenanigans. 

 

So after the double switch happens, I have 6 awake pokemon and my opponent has a sleeping one. Sounds like a deal to me.

[YagamiNoir]

So after the double switch happens, I have 6 awake pokemon and my opponent has a sleeping one. Sounds like a deal to me.

Since when did the ability to put something to sleep become a banworthy factor? 

 

EDIT: Heck, UU has more things to absorb sleep than even OU does, (well, only Primeape Vital Spirit I guess, but meh) you get the picture. Sleep isn't really a banworthy factor. 

 

You have something called clerics, you know. That and I suppose Altaria's pretty decent at sucking up a Spore due to it's typing and Natural Cure. Spore aside it shouldn't be a problem at all. I mean, stuff like Claydol/Nidoqueen/previously mentioned Grass types/Misdreavus stop it pretty decently. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[OldKeith]

Since when did the ability to put something to sleep become a banworthy factor? 

 

EDIT: Heck, UU has more things to absorb sleep than even OU does, (well, only Primeape Vital Spirit I guess, but meh) you get the picture. Sleep isn't really a banworthy factor. 

 

You have something called clerics, you know. That and I suppose Altaria's pretty decent at sucking up a Spore due to it's typing and Natural Cure. Spore aside it shouldn't be a problem at all. I mean, stuff like Claydol/Nidoqueen/previously mentioned Grass types/Misdreavus stop it pretty decently. 

 

There are only two pokes immune to sleep at the moment, both of which don't like breloom behind a sub. From all the grass types, only Exeggutor and Vileplume resist Focus Punch, and even if somebody decided to run Bold Vileplume, that would take 31.3% - 36.8% from focus punches. All the mentioned breloom counters will either get spored or sub seed stalled. Clerics are a thing, but they need one turn to Heal Bell/ Aromatherapy. The set is a bit concerning imo, but I guess it needs to be played more so that more people understand why it is such a big problem.

Edited March 28, 2015 by OldKeith

[Robofiend]

WTB grass type resistance to sleep moves

[Gunthug]

You know what we need? Meganium :(

[BurntZebra]

You know what we need? Meganium :(

252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meganium: 102-121 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery?

 

Am jealous of meganiums defense. 

[Gunthug]

252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meganium: 102-121 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery?

Am jealous of meganiums defense.

Well theoretically meganium could switch in on breloom behind a sub, take 50%, set up reflect on the next one, take around 30%, then synthesis back up until it could break the sub. Sadly giga wouldn't break it on the first turn but, hp fly? Lel

I dk I just really like meganium

Edit: why did toasts post get deleted? (Lol, toasts post) Edited March 29, 2015 by Gunthug

[YagamiNoir]

WTB grass type resistance to Powder moves

Fixed. Grass types aren't immune to sleep completely, it's just that the most common Sleep moves are Powder-ish moves. 

 

 

There are only two pokes immune to sleep at the moment, both of which don't like breloom behind a sub. From all the grass types, only Exeggutor and Vileplume resist Focus Punch, and even if somebody decided to run Bold Vileplume, that would take 31.3% - 36.8% from focus punches. All the mentioned breloom counters will either get spored or sub seed stalled. Clerics are a thing, but they need one turn to Heal Bell/ Aromatherapy. The set is a bit concerning imo, but I guess it needs to be played more so that more people understand why it is such a big problem.

I thought I already said Taunt Hypno and Altaria beat the damn thing, although I suppose no one runs Taunt on it anyways. That's not too much to Vileplume, the only real thing about Breloom to them is sleep, and without it it can't do anything to Exeggutor and the like at all. Also, although both sides can predict, you can kinda send out the best thing in your team to absorb sleep instead of letting your counter in to do that, should you think it has to stay awake to effectively stop Breloom. Sub/Seed sets are completely walled by stuff like Misdreavus and Haunter especially if they have Taunt or Sub themselves. Breloom needs like...one or two turns to get something to Sleep, pick up a Sub, and deal damage. There are more aggressive Spore and immediately Focus Punch strategies but what justifies this one turn is relevant on clerics and not on Breloom?

 

Also, while I suppose this is pretty rare, don't unexpected Sleep Talk users also prove pretty effective against a Breloom? 

[Shaniqualela]

Fixed. Grass types aren't immune to sleep completely, it's just that the most common Sleep moves are Powder-ish moves. 

 

 

I thought I already said Taunt Hypno and Altaria beat the damn thing, although I suppose no one runs Taunt on it anyways. That's not too much to Vileplume, the only real thing about Breloom to them is sleep, and without it it can't do anything to Exeggutor and the like at all. Also, although both sides can predict, you can kinda send out the best thing in your team to absorb sleep instead of letting your counter in to do that, should you think it has to stay awake to effectively stop Breloom. Sub/Seed sets are completely walled by stuff like Misdreavus and Haunter especially if they have Taunt or Sub themselves. Breloom needs like...one or two turns to get something to Sleep, pick up a Sub, and deal damage. There are more aggressive Spore and immediately Focus Punch strategies but what justifies this one turn is relevant on clerics and not on Breloom?

 

Also, while I suppose this is pretty rare, don't unexpected Sleep Talk users also prove pretty effective against a Breloom? 

 Team preview pls