Kizhaz Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Actually, I'm willing to debate on Espeon. Turns out Houndoom is actually pretty ok in UU. But are we then forced to run Houndoom? Espeon still shits on most of UU Link to comment
Robofiend Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 But are we then forced to run Houndoom? Espeon still shits on most of UU yeah you're actually right there, plus hp fight is pretty intense Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 But are we then forced to run Houndoom? Espeon still shits on most of UU Not really. Steelix is a great answer for a pokemon that has to carry a Hidden Power to beat it. Espeon also is left as a Hit and Run option when Steelix comes in unless it's +1 or has dropped in enough damage to beat it outright. And how many individuals in the community have HP Fire or HP Ground? [spoiler] HP Fire puts you at a huge disadvantage against other Espeons due to speed (lol I know, but still matters) [/spoiler] Chansey is still great at thwarting the lil Fox from a sweep unless it is running CM + Morning Sun. This moveset leaves a hole in coverage allowing Steelix (if no HP) and Umbreon (if no Signal Beam) to Counter it. It's beatable in our meta, it just has a lot of surprise value going for it. Also mentioned was CB 252 Swellow DE, CB 252 Sneasel Faint Attack, and 252 CB Tauros DE that can OHKO the 252 HP/0 Def Variants (all of which speed tie or outright beat). Revenge kills galore, or be a baller and predict the CM. [spoiler] CB 252 Crobat Bite does a pretty number on it also [/spoiler] Link to comment
Kizhaz Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) I agree there are 1million revenge kills for this thing, but other than houndoom, you mentioned steelix and umbreon, all of which are weak to fighting. So if I ran Machamp and espeon we have a similar problem to the old UU tier where Stoise/Plume/Steel cores were incredibly hard to break, only this duo is offensive and guarantees deaths. As far as I'm concerned HP Fight is the go to power as well to replace focus miss (although it still does uguu all to umb and steel) 252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 76-90 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery This calc surprised me Edited March 4, 2015 by Kizhaz Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I agree there are 1million revenge kills for this thing, but other than houndoom, you mentioned steelix and umbreon, all of which are weak to fighting. So if I ran Machamp and espeon we have a similar problem to the old UU tier where Stoise/Plume/Steel cores were incredibly hard to break, only this duo is offensive and guarantees deaths. As far as I'm concerned HP Fight is the go to power as well to replace focus miss (although it still does uguu all to umb and steel) 252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 76-90 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery This calc surprised me This statement just touches on the fact that UU is broken without any reliable walls. You can substitute Machamp for Breloom, Hitmonlee, Hariyama, or Primeape as well (Fighting types with STAB 100+ attacks; Superpower or Cross Chop) to help diversify your team building. The fact is you just have to flat out outplay your opponent in UU. It's definitely going to be the most difficult tier to play in and is based on resistances, immunities, and prediction more so than outright counters like before. The available walls just don't have the defensive typing or stats to hold up against the majority of power players we have. Even 252 HP Donphan can get 2HKO'd by weeny CB 252 Swellow. I do admit though, the ability of walls to do their job would increase if Espeon were banned. I'm thinking of Gligar, Vileplume, Muk, and others that are readily smashed by Espeon that have a fighting chance against the destructive physical sweepers in the tier. Archinix 1 Link to comment
DrCraig Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) Alright why is this thread so quiet, idc if there has been a tourney or not Espy can Psychic/Signal Beam sweep the whole tier the few pokemon, like Aggron, which can come in get shit on by HP Water I really don't want to see Espeon in any of the upcoming tournaments, can I get a TC verdict or atleast a discussion Edit: What can safely come in and safely dispose of Espeon in UU? Edited March 8, 2015 by DrCraig Link to comment
Archinix Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 I really don't want to see Espeon in any of the upcoming tournaments, can I get a TC verdict or atleast a discussion We won't be getting a UU TC Verdict until later this week because that's the earliest they can meet and cast a vote Link to comment
DrCraig Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 We won't be getting a UU TC Verdict until later this week because that's the earliest they can meet and cast a vote Well that's nifty. Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Edit: What can safely come in and safely dispose of Espeon in UU? max sp def fake out + crunch kangaskhan max sp def mantine with haze + sleep talk some physical umbreon's (pls no make me do calcs) chansey with toxic if no sub espy houndoom miltank maybe? twave + encore clef not much else few possibles that i havent calc'd yet. Link to comment
DrCraig Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 max sp def fake out + crunch kangaskhan Yes. There's one. max sp def mantine with haze + sleep talk Sure..I guess..Doesnt do much..but yea it phazes some physical umbreon's (pls no make me do calcs) NO. 176 Atk Umbreon Bite vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 92-110 (53.4 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 92 Atk Umbreon Bite vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 84-102 (48.8 - 59.3%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 4 SpA Espeon Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 86-102 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery I would assume SDEF EVs or +SDEF nature anyways I guess it would be possible to run an Umbreon which comes in on CM Espy and 2hkos it with Bite. chansey with toxic if no sub espy Anything can toxic anything but sure houndoom +1 4 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Water vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 120-142 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO True unless somebody runs SATK EVs with HP Water miltank maybe? If you run enough SDEF to get 3hkod by Psychic, you 3hko Espy with Return, thus it can CM. If you run enough ATK to 2hko Espy, you get 2hkod by +1 Psychic twave + encore clef Sure..I guess..Doesnt do much..But yea it phazes True for like anything with Encore not much else few possibles that i havent calc'd yet. Link to comment
Archinix Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 max sp def fake out + crunch kangaskhan max sp def mantine with haze + sleep talk some physical umbreon's (pls no make me do calcs) chansey with toxic if no sub espy houndoom miltank maybe? twave + encore clef not much else few possibles that i havent calc'd yet. +1 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kangaskhan: 96-114 (45.2 - 53.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO No Kanga can't switch it, Fake out, then Espy outspeeds 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 45-54 (26.1 - 31.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 67-79 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Espy can CM while Mantine Sleeps and if you don't get a Sleep Haze, things are looking bad for you. 0 SpA Mantine Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 48-57 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- 48.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Heads up, calcing with 252/252+ Espy) I did Umb/Fat Blob earlier Houndoom sure, but HP Water = ded +1 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 103-123 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Miltank Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 60-72 (42.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Careful Cursetank 252/252+. +1 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 90-106 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Only did calcs not arguing either way Link to comment
DrCraig Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) +1 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kangaskhan: 96-114 (45.2 - 53.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO Leftover Recover and shit though Archi No Kanga can't switch it, Fake out, then Espy outspeeds I've been assuming Espy is Calm Minding when you come in btw. Fake Out does 20%, Crunch 2hkos Kanga lives 2 Psychics Assuming a Timid 252HP/SPE Set But yea Espy is too stronk 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 45-54 (26.1 - 31.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 67-79 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Espy can CM while Mantine Sleeps and if you don't get a Sleep Haze, things are looking bad for you. 0 SpA Mantine Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 48-57 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- 48.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Heads up, calcing with 252/252+ Espy) I did Umb/Fat Blob earlier Houndoom sure, but HP Water = ded +1 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 103-123 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Miltank Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 60-72 (42.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Careful Cursetank 252/252+. +1 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 90-106 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Only did calcs not arguing either way ty Archi Basically Espy can run a small amount of SATK EVs, and all of its Counters turn into to Checks. There really isn't a safe switch. Edited March 8, 2015 by DrCraig fredrichnietze and Archinix 2 Link to comment
DrCraig Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Is it later in the week yet? Link to comment
Archinix Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 Is it later in the week yet? Heard they were supposed to meet tonight Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Heard they were supposed to meet tonight Archinix, Kizhaz and RysPicz 3 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 so we have been trying to find a time to meet but we all have lives outside of pokemon and jobs and it has been difficult. we will meet soon(tm) Link to comment
DrCraig Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Yall need a group chat or a group message so you don't have to have these corny meeting [spoiler]hmu on kik[/spoiler] Link to comment
Gunthug Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Yall need a group chat or a group message so you don't have to have these corny meeting [spoiler]hmu on kik[/spoiler] >kik Wtf is this, 2011? Groupme> DrCraig 1 Link to comment
Noad Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 so we have been trying to find a time to meet but we all have lives outside of pokemon and jobs and it has been difficult. we will meet soon(tm) Any chance of the UU council making a decision before the 15th so the usage I take on Sunday doesn't become irrelevant? I feel like we are missing out on a chance to take some good usage. Archinix, fredrichnietze, BurntZebra and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Senile Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Any chance of the UU council making a decision before the 15th so the usage I take on Sunday doesn't become irrelevant? I feel like we are missing out on a chance to take some good usage. Even if they make decisions today, you're only giving people like 3 days to make teams for what will probably be a fairly different tier. The usage will be kinda irrelevant anyway. Link to comment
Kizhaz Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Even if they make decisions today, you're only giving people like 3 days to make teams for what will probably be a fairly different tier. The usage will be kinda irrelevant anyway. 3 Days is plenty of time to replace a pokemon that everyone has known has been up for discussion for the past couple weeks. If most people didn't already have replacements for the pokemon up for discussion, they should probably get onto it. Edited March 13, 2015 by Kizhaz DrCraig 1 Link to comment
DrCraig Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 3 Days is plenty of time to replace a pokemon that everyone has known has been up for discussion for the past couple weeks. If most people didn't already have replacements for the pokemon up for discussion, they should probably get onto it. Yea, really its the same situation as Dragonite. I really don't think everybody has only 6 pokemon and nothing to replace Espeon. Link to comment
Senile Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 3 Days is plenty of time to replace a pokemon that everyone has known has been up for discussion for the past couple weeks. If most people didn't already have replacements for the pokemon up for discussion, they should probably get onto it. There's a shit ton of threads, most UU threads have minimal discussion, and not everyone follows the forums that closely; not that they'd be able to know what will/won't be changed even if they did.Yea, really its the same situation as Dragonite. I really don't think everybody has only 6 pokemon and nothing to replace Espeon. You realise that the UU council meeting isn't just about Espeon, and Espeon might not even be one of the moved pokemon? Yes, this is the Espeon thread, but it should be p. obvious that we're not just talking about it. If it was just 1 pokemon they were concerned about, they wouldn't bother with a meeting. Link to comment
DrCraig Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) You realise that the UU council meeting isn't just about Espeon, and Espeon might not even be one of the moved pokemon? Yes, this is the Espeon thread, but it should be p. obvious that we're not just talking about it. If it was just 1 pokemon they were concerned about, they wouldn't bother with a meeting. If they don't need to "bother" why can't we see a verdict quicker? I do tournaments to enjoy them, not feed usage. Espeon makes the tier ugly and I want to know the verdict. Espeon =/= fun Edited March 13, 2015 by DrCraig Kizhaz 1 Link to comment
Kizhaz Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 There's a shit ton of threads, most UU threads have minimal discussion, and not everyone follows the forums that closely; not that they'd be able to know what will/won't be changed even if they did. And? Unless your team consists of Espeon, Alakazam, Machamp, Exeggutor, Hariyama, Some other broken thing, there should be no problems creating a viable team before the next UU official. Anyways, just get to the meeting, ban shit and let's move on DrCraig 1 Link to comment
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