caioxlive13

You get it now? They used basically sh** argument to justify banning it. Just because it counters heatran. They said that CB Digglet was good because it one shotted heatran. Even though this set literally loses to everything else. If has a priority or more than 90 speed, or survived 1 attack, it's gg vs digglet. About the trapping, the thing is Diglett isn't more uncompetitive than other trappers. Gb did a great job, listing what are digglet's targets and comparing with tytar. Pursuit creates a lot of 50/50. You could switch and take lot of dmg, but you'd be risking a lot staying since tytar has amazing coverage, again Gb did the job listing them. On the same fashion AT could pressure an switch or a kill, Pursuit does it. And unlike digglet that could only trap once, Tytar players with correct play forces trapping a lot of times in 1 battle because tytar is on it's own a War tank. And a thing that is important bring up is that the number of targets matters when discussing trappers. Magnet Pull is not banned because even though Magnezone kills key mons, he has a limited amount of targets that he can trap and kill. Trapinch on a LC context is the same, he is acceptable because he has not a lot of targets that he can switch and kill. Digglet on OU has a lot of targets, but as listed, he has less than other trappers deemed as acceptable, such as Tyranitar Pursuit. Ok, you won't do dmg if you pursuit on a mon which is staying, and is a valid argument, but the question is, will you risk staying, and the opponent instead of Pursuit use something else? You only stay if you are willing to risk a predict or you're geniunely crazy(Spend 5 minutes trying to find a better term to use rather than Dumb.)

Can at least remove rotom from the pool of picked mons until that issue can be solved?

90 w/o scarf is pretty low, especially when the Top nature is adamant. Digglet can never run Scarf. And most under 85 has tools for digglet or can just use a scarf. Like for example, Dragonite which has a priority move, Tytar with Rock blast. Mamoswine uses Icicle spear. Conkeldurr can drain punch t1, and mach on the next one. Hazards are a lose for digglet 90% of the time. Suicune timid vs Digglet Adamant, had the suicune player set a Subs when digglet stepped in the field is an automatic loss for Digglet, and even bold in this scenario wins if Scald Burns. In those cases, Digglet can never directly switch in. If above 90 speed, can't directly switch either. And the most comfortable scenario for a switch in those cases are if the opponent killed something.

There is a degree of uncompetitiveness that dictates whether things should or not be banned. If the sheer concept of trapping is broken, then Magnet Pull Magnezone would be banned and no questions asked. Or in MMO LC Arena Trap as a whole would be banned, but only digglet there is banned because they recognized Trapinch is not an so effective trapper. On OU same thing with Dug and Digglet. Digglet can trap a lot of mons, yes, but can't switch in half of the list of targets since 90 speed is mid and people using it Adamant make things worse. That is what makes him more manageable. Other trappers could come in far more easier. An example is Pursuit Tytar. He is slow, but bulky enough to enter comfortably onto a lot of targets. Yet, none of them are labeled as uber.

There is no doubt that dug is broken, far more than a Magma Storm Heatran. What we claim is that Digglet AT isn't more broken than Heatran Magma Storm or Pursuit Tyranitar. Yet, both are not deemed uber, not even close of that, so why digglet would be uber? Okay, you could argue that with endeavor it brings anything to 70 HP. But the problem is since you're commiting a lot of your team the least you could get is the KO. Also other 3 details are: - 90 speed makes that a decent chunk of the meta is almost impossible to Digglet switch in, unlike Dugtrio, and that hinders digglet's capabilities. And you guys know that this detail matters since on LC Trapinch was unbanned because although he could trap a lot of mons, most of them he couldn't even switch in. - If a mon survives with 70 HP i would be at a 5v5 but only temporarily part of the time. I could use the broken Wish TP on the first chance that is given, and heal my mon. If i pull that off, then Digglet would be sacked for nothing. - Digglet's attack is mediocre, 50 base. It can't even finish it’s job. If you run Adamant to have a somewhat decent atk then the speed problem became severely worse.

Nobody is specifically claiming that Magma Storm or Pursuit Trappers are uncompetitive. We are saying that both are far more effective than Digglet, yet no one claimed they are broken, so why digglet would be? - Magma Storm doesn't trap immediatly, sure, but you are in a lose-lose. After placing the answer to Heatran, let's say Rotom-W. I'll go to Gastrodon, you won't do anything since Rotom doesn't touch Gastro, and you can't switch to let's say, Ferrothorn. Next move i've the threatening Toxic so you'll switch, and i gain a free turn to do whatever the f*** i want. So the argument of: After you leave with heatran i win a free turn is false. Part of the time you won't be able to use thay free turn and even if you do on the next move i'm winning the free turn back. Either we're equal, or i got the upper hand, the initiative. The only way to avoid being behind is using a Flash Fire mon to eat the attack, which we have only Chandelure on OU and it's not the best ability, Infiltrator ends up being more useful in most scenarios - A Pursuit Trappers dependa on the sheer strength of the trapper to be effective and broken. Tytar is strong in this case. He traps most of the meta with Pursuit and Tytar is a good mon on it's own. Unlike digglet AT which traps 1 mon and is dead weight. Let's use Volcarona as example. Was mentioned that if Volca is trapped then you could lose immediatly. Tytar could trap Volcarona, and the problem is it could later also trap a Gengar or a Dragonite in the same match. Digglet trapped volca and that's it. It couldn't trap ANYTHING else on that match. "You're in risk on burning with Pursuit due to flame body" Same with Endeavor. And please don't be like some people that have 0 brain and think a laugh reaction would be enough to label something as bad. Wanna counter me, use Facts and solid arguments. But be ready for an counter argument. Like we say here on Brazil: Chickens that follow ducks, dies drowned (Galinha que segue pato, morre afogado.)

That happens when you go against them. They appeal to hate rather than try to use a solid argue, simply because they cannot counter the argument. They tried to justify by the most ridiculous ways to refute me, but evident flaws made my work easy there. They treated Magma Storm as a basic trapping move like Fire Spin, which clearly isn't. Using the logic they provided, is like comparing Scald to Will-o-Wisp. Ok, you still don't trap instantly, but whatever the opponent switches in, are commiting to take damage and it isn't weak damage. We're speaking on a resist without investment dealing 34%-39% to a Garchomp, without putting hazards into the table, and giving a free switch to a counter with the 100% certain that you won't be double predicted. You has the upper hand out of that no matter what. The only true answer for Magma Storm that don't give the upper hand to the opponent is Chandelure Flash Fire , considering OU options, which given the meta currently, is TRASH compared to Infiltrator. As pointed later, had to be using the inferior option to counter something is a gigantic Red Flag. People claimed that AT digglet removes a lot of mons. There is mons that does more than that, with the detail that none of the mons said are even remotely close to be considered uncompetitive or uber, and I wasn't the only one saying that. Even if digglet can bring anything down to 70hp, why it matter if digglet dies, and the mon on 70hp can always be healed later by a Wish Tp? I lose faith a long time on forum people long ago, still had hope even after the Wish Tp post incident with keldeo, but lost it when Gallade Sharpness was banned(Not saying it shouldn't, but the Sharpness ban was imo too harsh. S-Sword was enough.), and the best argument to justify it over sacred ban was... Psycho cut would be broken? - 105 BP Psycho Cut - Broken - 117 BP S-Sword(2023) and 126 BP S-Sword - Acceptable Seriously? No one countered that part when pointed out. They immediatly shifted the topic to Tier Policies. Or when I pointed out that Empoleon was not enough of an excuse to allow hydrei, as some people were trying to use as an argument. Even pointed that Empo was UU, so there was a reason to it not be used on OU, and having to use the worst option because of 1 broken mon is a reason for a ban. Someone cared? Ofc not, keep the hate because he is against our opinion.

Like Gb said, any conventional way to deal with an AT, like Teleport, is also an option vs Pursuit Trappers. Like i said, as soon as they step on the field and have a turn to attack you're screwed. Tytar not only have far more targets than Digglet, as again @gbweadlisted(See doctor and others why a good argument matters? Gb's argument is just a perfect reference and leaves almost no room for questioning unlike yours.), a Tytar is still a good mon on it's own. It can do a lot more than trapping and can trap a lot of mons in the same match if the opponent does a mistake. Digglet is only a sackable mon after dealing with it's first target and has no utility whatsoever in the remaining of the match. With tytar you're commited to a Moveslot. With digglet it's a full mon slot, maybe more because you will need some support to he do it's job. The biggest problem is just the fact that you're ignoring the move itself. All other trapping moves doesn't do anything besides trapping, sure. They are weak moves, or don't do any damage after all. Magma storm however, is still a 100 Base power attack. Even if the opponent doesn't care about trapping he will care about the sheer damage of the attack plus the residual 12.5%. Like most mons that resist water disliking going on Scald on gens 5-6 because the burn damage was so annoying. Also, like i said, you can after he switch an answer to heatran, bring your own answer to that mon and since the opponent is trapped, he can't double. The momentum is all yours since your opponent is the one now forced to switch away. The key is the KO. Since you're commited to a Mon slot, the least you can take not to be behind is 1 for 1 trades. The problem is... If you don't take the KO, which often will happen since digglet has 50 Atk, the opponent can later use another thing that was complained a lot: Wish + Tp chansey, and heal the mon weakened back to 100%. If they do, then digglet was USELESS in the match.

I've read, it's the same teams which dugtrio was popular. According them, digglet "1 to 1 replaced dugtrio"

Usually it would be the case, because the move only provided trapping if we talked about a Fire Spin or Whirlpool. Like for example, Refresh and Natural Cure, the latest is clearly better The same thing can't be said if the moves provide more than the effect. Like Chilly Reception on current gens which sets snow and allow a switch. Or in the MMO's case, Magma Storm which on top of trapping is a 100 Base Power move, and the trapping also comes with passive damage. Unless you use Flash Fire to eat that Magma Storm, whatever you brought to resist it although can force a switch, will take a lot of dmg. And whotever you put on the field, the opponent can place a wall to stop it and you can't predict and double switch because your "answer" is trapped. Let's go for actual examples, only way that i can dream of people not trying to ridicularizing my post: I have a calm heatran and use Magma Storm, you come with a full physical chomp. That's the dmg you take: 0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 40-48 (21.8 - 26.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage Add up +12.5% due to magma storm residual at the end of turn. You take at least 34% dmg. And on the next turn, i'm switching to Skarmory. What you are gonna do? If you attack i heal, if you place rocks i defog. I think where i can go with that is clear.

Just watching the arguments and im perplex here. All of them are easily counterable. - "Dugtrio/Digglet steps on field, the opponent cannot switch". ok, Tytar does the same, if he steps on the field, switching is not confortable due to pursuit, with a Twist: Digglet does it once, Tytar can do it multiple times and still be a f*** war tank. - "Heatran can only trap after clicking a move, you have time to react". Cool. Whatever you brought will still take a lo of dmg, since it's an 100 BP move coming from an 120+ Sp. Atk stat and i can easily switch onto something that can wall your check without fearing a double switch. You're still trapped. - "Digglet can bring anything to 70 HP, so i will force an 5v5" 5v5 until i bring a chansey and heal my weakened ally. Only vs HO this statement is 100% of the time true.

You think Garde raid is annoying? Togekiss is where i'm suffering because this raid is a fu🦆 cassino. Not only the queue is a Luck Rool but the entire raid. Putting you already on the beggining on a lot of "You can only use this or that". You can only go with Special Attackers, physical are too risky due to burn. All strats rely on Rain with Randoms. You cannot use setters like Vanilluxe or Tytar. Pelipper is too slow, you cannot use Tailwind with him, you has to use something else. A Heal Block is needed. The only one that IA won't rush to kill is Bronzong. Also there is the coordination needed that most teams don't have. And there is the IA that take over after an ally forfeit, and won't EVER attack the Boss. Unless you run an AoE move and gave the IA no other option, it will always attack their allies. So, you run the remaining raid with 1 mon less.

Hello They mentioned it above, Raids at the ⭐, ⭐⭐ or ⭐⭐⭐ have 3 actions(2 star raids were seen in the first preview) while ⭐⭐⭐⭐ or above have 4. Devs do however care about balancing the raid to make it possible. For example: Tangrowth and Jirachi both received nerfs on their difficulty, having the good Ancient Power(Not good for competitive but for raid bosses is amazing since the raid boss has multiple chances to use them, at least 4 per turn.) for an HP Rock(which has no added effect whatsoever.) Sometimes they mess up? Yes. Like Togekiss Raids where they make the run a roulette of Hax, and gave to togekiss an Wish that can heal 50% of her life(Rest on clef raid didn't do that, and usually Rest heals your life to Maximum.), which means that the Random Ally if they don't bring an Heal Block user on the next move you can basically forfeit, and a 128 turn Tailwind, which... Seriously? Dealing later with an Starf Berry and Nasty Plot Togekiss at the point where our Haze Users are dead isn't suffering enouģh? I'd only ask to make the togekiss have a normal Tri attack and not an ⭐ version, or make the Rainbow effect apply to both sides. Because the attack is annoying enough due to the Rainbow doubling it's chance to inflict Burn, Para or Freeze, having 120 power is definitively not needed, especially when they have an attack that is a flinch machine and another that can apply confusion(which is a ⭐ attack(More power) and have the Rainbow boost it's chances)

Don't quote me asking that: Who pointed that Digglet need a s*** ton of support is him, the quote is above. That civil war is yours, not mine. Just here to watch the chaos and point out when you guys are being hypocrites, since you guys love pointing when i'm allegedly one.

The thing that gb is saying is: Digglet need 2-3 team slots dedicated to support them. While Tytar not only barely need support to trap other mons, but be a support itself to their team, with sandstorm for an ally or trap key mons in the opponent's side. Also, after trapping and killing, tytar is still a f*** tytar and can do whatever it did before trapping, even trapping again on match depending of the course of the match. While digglet/trapinch traps 1 mon and is gone afterwards basically becoming dead weight that you could at best save to be sacked later on.

The problem is: you have to had a good argument to ask for a ban. However, most there that want digglet banned don't provide good arguments, and when they do and someone point a flaw, they try to dismiss the person that tries to refute them by ridicularizing or switching the topic to people ignore their post. This happened in Gallade's discussion. No one provided to me an good counterargument when i pointed the following flaw: They claimed 105 BP Psycho Cut was broken, but back with 1,3x/1,4x sharp, you had an 117 BP/126 BP S-Sword which no one claimed was broken.(And please doc don't quote me unless you quote the whole part, don't try to cut a small part because it wont work now.) And btw, trapinch and digglet play very different roles when comes to trapping. If you don't need speed since you can ensure your mon always enter on field full health, go for Trapinch. He is slow so it's more hard to switch, but it's attack ensures more KOs. If you need speed to trap some mons, like Excadrill, Tytar and Heatran, and your team has less support for it to enter, then Diglett is the way to go. He is faster and can switch in on most things due to sash, but grabbing a KO is tougher due to it's low atk. (That choice is the key that made both able to be used. Unlike Dugtrio which had Atk and Speed combined, hence rendered other trappers useless, Trapinch and Digglet don't have both stats. One is good and the other is bad.) An good argument is like the one that @gbwead provided. The only flaw was that he sayed that Sash Digglet always wins vs Heatran, when it don't. Assuming same case as the others, both full HP on field, digglet fails to get the KO unless band 37% of the time if calm, if heat has Sash or has some physical defense investment don't even dream, and it will be killed by Magma Storm since it deals residual damage(Magma storm even make digglet switching harder. Either predict a toxic, or use other mons to indirectly switch digglet in, and it had to be slower. Or, let Heatran kill something. If neither of those things, digglet cannot enter.)If Heatran has Chansey wish Tp support, he surviving render digglet's sack useless since it could be healed back to 100% very quickly. Apart from that, all of Gb's argument is solid, and he provided information to most possible counterarguments.

The thing is exactly that - people are using the worst set as an example. Endeavor sash brings anything to the range of a Priority. Like i sayed, if people aimed to kill heatran, Trapinch was better since not only it kills Heatran, but deals a lot of damage to other mons since Trapinch has 100 atk. Sash ensures it lives a hit, and Trapinch has the same limitations to step on field as the other AT mons. And honestly, a mon able to take any mon down to 70hp or lower without chance of counterplay seems problematic. But digglet is slow and very hard to place on field.

The problem here is just the arguments people use to ask for bans... CB digglet which is a joke, on the thread of Dugtrio they claimed that ORAS with higher powerlevel banned dug so we should as well(I countered saying that ADV has lower powerlevel than both MMO and ORAS but they decided to keep AT unbanned, basically saying: Powerlevel isn't enough to justify a ban alone, But yea... the situation i described on previous page happened again. Not once they refuted that argument of mine with concrete facts. Just tried to ridcularize me.)... People want things banned, but ridicularizing good arguments instead of countering it with facts,(Seeing what was done witk Keldeo's two posts about wish tp chansey) and using trash arguments(Honestly, digglet band is a joke. You win 1 matchup to lose against all others. If you really need to counter heatran and try to survive a bit more vs other matchups, you're better served with Trapinch Sash.), is pathetic imo.

@Imperial your question on NU discussion thread is answered

Insta ban to OU at least. Maybe UU, forcing a bit. But in no way tangrowth stays on NU with Regen.

OH Come on devs? We are warning multiple times about Regens and you release ANOTHER ONE? For who didn't understand: Tangrowth HA is the raid newly released. What's coming next? Slowbro HA?

Yeah, i got the berry wrong

The way i thinked almost all gave time to Heatran escape or force something to be sacked. Either you sack something, hard switch an pivot, or switch an chansey. You're not switching into anything that uses Volt Switch on OU, at best you're switching on a U-turn from Scizor but this is risky as f*** for Scizor since if it's gets burnt, you lost 2 mons for 1. Also, like i said, wallbreakers nowadays can be beaten by simple gimmicks. Either Sash or Wacan Berry Heatran is enough to win against digglet, even if sash due to Magma Storm. "But you gave up recovery" and what? Like for weezing, or other walls with no passive recover, i can slap a chansey on my team and wish tp Heatran later on the match. It's better you have an heatran with no item than no heatran alive at all. And isn't like serp/volca could kill him easily after weakened unless running HP Ground, which does low dmg(ok, not super low, but still not enough to dream of a KO) and for them is bad coverage, since you gave so much up by not using something else. Volcarona could not use Giga Drain for water types, Bug Buzz or even HP Ice which is needed for Nite. Serperior without HP Fire cannot touch Skarmory and Bronzong at all. Scizor can switch safe... eyc... Also, some Empoleon sets before run Wacan Berry, so it's not an useless item, and if a gimmick like CB is being brought up, why not i bring my own to the fight?

What kills me is the argument. CB digglet is honestly a joke. You kill heatran? Sure. But please explain how digglet will enter on field. Currently he barely can, CB just makes the situation worse.

Better behind a free event than a Paywall.