suigin

based also cursed body is not broken but uncompetitive as all shit much like sand veil, zebra or tyrone would never know because they haven't played more than two games in a row since 2014

Can the devs add a clause where if a opposing Pokemon is disabled by Cursed Body, the person with the Cursed Body mon cannot set up for 3 turns? I feel like that's a fairly simple way to balance this. for the record i'm being sarcastic

Every single cursed body pokemon I hit today has disabled me, help, what's the counterplay to this?

No, I'm disgusted by it too. Hence why I first complained about it when my own Gengar was letting me set something else up by disabling a mon using Cursed Body allowing me to win the game. Yeah I hate scald but it's a completely different dynamic to Cursed Body.

There's really nothing else they can work on at this point unless they sidetrack with Johto or BW2 for some reason. Is adding custom maps really that hard? Stuff like seasonal instances already beta tested links and custom boss fights.

More like canon-ly hit it once.

I just played a match using a defensive team in where out of the 6 chances to 2hko a Nasty Plot Gengar (massive threat to my team) I got Cursed Body'd immediately after every time and due to the cycle we were stuck in it eventually got back to out of 2hko range again and risked itself stupidly once again and pretty much got a kill every time because I just couldn't revenge kill it without having to retreat after nailing a hit due to my move that could hit it being locked. What was the reasoning behind it again? To fit in with the games? The ones that had Fairy types turn its poison typing into a serious boon and on top of that gave him one of the most broken forms in the history of the game? Or maybe the games without said broken form but with a Gigantamax form instead? @Rache can you remind me why this change was made? Did it make PVE better? Did it make PVP better? If it didn't noticeably make them better can you revert it to Levitate? Hell I'm willing to see how Levitate+Nasty Plot behave if that's the issue. And like I said in my previous post, plenty of times I've had the same situation happen to me where my own Gengar procced Cursed Body on my opponent allowing me to set up a win condition pretty much for free when playing a more offensive team. Really not a fan of this change. I know everyone wants to carry on with the same Duggy discussion we've been having since 2015 but maybe if we all yell hard enough at the people in charge we can get something small like this to change.

I mean that's why rng exists, so little kids can grab wins against 500 pound (pure muscle) adults, problem is I have to do ten backflips in the air to make sand end before I can ensure a hit against a Garchomp in an offensive team otherwise I may just risk one of the things that can steadily revenge kill it. The Cloyster issue apparently already has a solution going on, hopefully they don't go through with the ridiculous idea of it simply announcing "Hey idiot, you're gonna get flinched to death, good luck!" Cursed Body Gengar is also awful, I won too many games through disabling a mon's attack and then setting up when they were helpless, I was against this change since the beginning but people who have never played competitive had the final word.

hi can you get rid of all the rng you added in the past year to ou? thanks it's the one thing i really don't like about the tier rn

A better example would be Primal Kyogre with Shedinja but yeah more or less the same idea.

Suggestion: Make King's Rock make the holder immune to flinches. Fanfic solution but who cares at this point.

So gotcha, my counterplay is just "don't be unlucky"

So my counterplay to not getting lucked to death is to use a low distribution priority move from two unsplashable mons and hope I don't get lucked to death by ice shard flinches on one. The only reason walls are more likely to get flinched is because they are the only mons that may survive a 125 BP nuke from a Pokemon at +2 attack

It's very rare to see high usage as an indicator of the strength of a particularly problematic Pokemon. Even some of the most oppressive threats in the game's history have had pretty low usage, the thing about usage is it mostly indicates the splashability of a Pokemon IE in how many teams this Pokemon can function properly. And this segways perfectly into Lucario, Vacuum Wave Lucario is by no means a weak Pokemon, with proper support it's a fairly strong pick, but it's sadly not a very splashable Pokemon, that means you can't just stick it in any team and perform its role consistently every time. A balance team will seldom create a scenario where Lucario can set up and sweep, a mostly stall team with a 6th slot spent on Lucario even less, Lucario feels at home in offensive teams that blow holes and create the offensive pressure needed for everything to be low enough for Lucario to sweep, alternatively it can be used to blow those holes itself so it allows some other Pokemon the opportunity to sweep. Cloyster isn't the issue, defensive pokemon aren't the issue. The problem is King's Rock + Cloyster, specifically the King's Rock component of it, which vastly reduces the reliable counterplay options to it for a very small trade off. It's not an invincible strategy, there is some reliable counterplay, absolutely, in Vacuum Wave Lucario, but that's the only reliable one who doesn't have to fear any flinch roll. Maybe you can use Inner Focus Bisharp but that Pokemon has to hope to win a 50-50 or two in the worst case with Cloyster right after. EVERYTHING else has a shot at getting flinched to death, no matter how small. Togekiss didn't have the luxury of this, it had a much lower speed tier, was limited to one move which could miss and had no priority, it also heavily depended on its EVs and other moves to beat certain things, otherwise it'd easily lose, Cloyster with King's Rock however is packed tightly into something that can flinch most opposing Pokemon to death if lucky enough after setting up once. There's no secret NU mon that reliably hard counters it, here, check it for yourself, the only Inner Focus Pokemon who both live a 125+ BP multi hit nuke are Lucario and Bisharp, everything else dies. You can't even do something as silly as saying "I'll bring focus sash Throh and keep it at full no matter what until it faces Cloyster" because Cloy uses multi hit moves. No matter what you bring there's always going to be an element of luck involved and given enough luck it can get out of any situation that isn't a Vacuum Wave Lucario, a Pokemon that like previously said only fits in offensive archetypes and isn't exactly the most common thing to stick in them. You saying MAAAAAAN DON'T BE A MACHINE BRO JUST USE LOW USAGE POKEMON BEAT THE SYSTEM BRO USE THE LITTLE GUY isn't a solution, it's you putting yourself on a pedestal for using lower usage Pokemon and being "unique". Being unique sadly doesn't make you special, or useful, or a good player, there's plenty of room for originally with lower usage Pokemon when they work, I've seen great players pull it off and they have my respect. But in this case you're suggesting there's a "non copypaste" solution to this when in truth there isn't. An Empoleon can get flinched to death, an Infernape could theoretically get flinched to death with enough luck, a Kingdra under rain too, same with a scarf Starmie, all by Ice Shard. It's unlikely, sure, but not impossible, and the problem is the item adding a layer of luck making it frustrating to play against and the tradeoff is just its item slot, which maybe Cloyster would honestly prefer to have occupied by something else, sure, but the problem is this thing shouldn't even exist as a possibility and players shouldn't be forced to either use one Pokemon to avoid a coin toss from a Pokemon that can become so oppressive with just the right turn and set up. This guy is literally educating us on a problem he created in his head and giving us a solution to it. He's condescendingly telling everyone the basics of teambuilding and calling out better players than him while providing nothing substantial of his own. I am honestly surprised the mods let him derail the tread consistently from start to finish with his nonsense.

Usage has nothing to do with something being overpowered. It's the same brainlet excuse people who want Landorus-Therian to be banned from Smogon tiers have been using for years despite more overpowered/unhealthy pokemon/strategies having less usage. There are Pokemon that have the ability to always hit, doesn't mean we should allow evasion boosts. Same applies with sturdy and OHKO moves.

Safeguard Volcarona is the premier stallbreaker set though. Also you're comparing toxic to a 125 BP (+ STAB) multi hit move from a +2 pokemon that can flinch you half the time. Stop sidetracking

Ok so you agree that RNG fishing is unhealthy, gotcha. We're all in agreement on that. The wall thing maybe not, but the topic isn't about it, it's about King's Rock and its RNG fishing properties so we can all ignore it. Remove king's rock.

Stop side tracking.

It's all about tradeoff and counterplay offered. If it was for me I'd have banned Scald ages ago too. Togekiss' disadvantage is that it's very set reliant in order to beat certain matchups and its speed tier is nowhere near close to a set up Cloyster's speed tier allowing it to flinch far less.

Something being excessively used does not mean it's overpowered ergo it shouldn't be banned. Something should be banned if it's unhealthy for the game or overcentralizing. Stall is neither and it has plenty of counterplay besides requiring hax. Or overwhelm your opponent's walls with either offensive pressure, safe set up options or taunt. Name defensive 3 cores that can wall every wallbreaker and reliably wall everything else. Blatantly false. I know the entire TC more or less changed since I left but I know a good chunk of them don't particularly favor stall and wouldn't allow it to dominate if it became problem. Hell I asked around and apparently stall's dogshit right now. "Just use a single move with shit distribution bro, just get lucky bro. Put the frail offensive mon that doesn't fit on every team on archetype to counter that one particular luck based pest bro it's easy, you have a lot of options" Or be behind screens against a physical matchup that doesn't have a super effective STAB move against it. It can also just get lucky against anything slower. You could have just gotten lucky, hell this is what the whole issue is about :^). Shuckle can have a gogollion defense too, doesn't mean it's particularly good. I know it has been a year since I last played and there have been plenty of meta shake ups but unless SWSH moves gave Chansey some killer utility that it sorely lacked (I'm guessing teleport but even then) or some punch packing move to let it two shot things I assume it's still the bulky abusable set up fodder that was before I quit. Tbh I've always said that newer players usually gravitate towards either walls or rain for their first comps as they always guaranteed to be effective early comps to make instead of immediately starting out with some meme offensive mon with some tailor made moveset to fit a very specific team. Also lots of newer players think this is like an average rpg and want to have a balanced party with shit like a special wall, a physical wall and a bunch of attackers, resulting in some weird bulky offense. If novices struggle too much with walls they should look into the many resources for teambuilding in the community instead of flipping a coin and hoping they flinch through it. They should learn how to get good. No game should pander to their weaker, least experienced playerbase as they are likely to jump ship at any time. Also this whole Cloyster vs walls thing is a weird strawman you invented in your head when it can mess with every playstyle including offense. You invented this caricature in your head that any player behind the idea of banning king's rock is an unoriginal stall only player who's seething that their copy paste team got flinched by a Cloyster. It's a distraction you and your buddy pulled out of your butt because people are getting tired of your coin toss strategy and want it gone once and for all. Also looking at you talk about Jorge's team, you somehow think a team with a few walls in it is inherently a defensive or stall team, that just makes you look like you know nothing about this game and gives you less validation. Rotom is not a wall for the record, a pokemon with defensive investment isn't necessarily a wall. Kyu ban this garbage, rework it into either another item that's already out in newer gens that fixes some issue people find annoying right now, or turn it into a fanfic item with the same purpose. Just get this shit out of the game and stop pissing off the competitive playerbase because you somehow want to stay """""""""""""authentic to the games"""""""""""""" despite all the other fanfic changes made to it already. Talk about creating a problem when it was already solved ages ago, not sure if it was due to some dev's OCD or what but it's an idiotic decision. Remove it.

but then too many ppls will abuse offensive mons and they'll have to be limited too

Still doing the showdown servers thing if anyone is interested btw :^)

@Kyu @Desu stop watching Pekora and ban this garbage. When I finally got time to maybe come back and play for a few weeks I lost all motivation when I found out you guys had unbanned this.

Alright pictures should be back up, I'll be adding names in the following days and then screencap the whole thing and host the picture in case everything goes down again and it becomes an eyesore to read. Feel free to tell me any changes I missed, I am quite unfamiliar with this current meta.

I asked @gbwead to tell me if the guide was in dire need of updating but I guess he forgot. I'll be fixing the links and maybe adding names later in the day, next time it happens ask gbwead to tell me to fix it.