Senile

Muk & Blastoise are painfully mediocre at best, unviable in even NU at worst. Aside from their viability, their Hidden Abilities aren't even that great; Poison Touch is pretty decent on Muk, but Sticky Hold is a pretty decent ability on it's own, and has it's own usage, so it's not like Sticky Hold Muk is significantly less viable than a set running Poison Touch. Torrent >>>> Rain Dish on Blastoise basically 99% of the time anyway, since the only place you can run auto-Drizzlers is OU, and Blastoise has basically negative viability there. Torrent isn't amazing, but a stronger Scald at low HP is better than extra Leftovers that never activates. Even if Rain Dish has a use, it's marginal at best, nonexistent at worst. Typhlosion wants a Hidden Power anyway as others have mentioned, but it's not like Blaze Typhlosion is worthless; It's generally worse than Flash Fire, yeah, but it's not like Typh is completely unviable without FF in NU. If anything the lack of HP is a bigger deal than the missing hidden ability. Alakazam, same thing; Still highly viable in UU, so it's not like you can't use it, it's just that it'll become worthless the second it's Hidden Ability comes out and it shoots up to OU. tl;dr: it really isn't that bad

so, I don't have a complete list or anything, but as far as I was told/am aware, here's what works and doesn't work: Most moves work, with a few notable exceptions, such as Foul Play, Dragon Tail, & Growth no longer working. No Gen 4 or 5 Abilities or Items AFAIK work. Magic Guard, Regen, Technician, etc.; Pretty sure none of that works. Specs/Scarf/Orb still work obviously, but Eviolite, Sash, Gems, etc. don't work.

Uhhh, Skarmory? Also, Mold Breaker makes Haxorus EQ hit Bronzong. Not that there's anything wrong with Double Dance sets, but c'mon, how could you forget godbird? Edit: Also, you REALLY shouldn't assume Dream World abilities on any of these things, since they aren't expected to come soon, and on stronger OU pokemon, might never come out at all.

I mean, the tier lists here we made on the assumption that the relevant abilities/moves/items actually work. We don't have SR on much right now, but we should soon, as we're assuming the tutors should come in relatively soon. Also, praise ferrothorn.

Defog actually having good distribution now + no team preview, along with the fact that Bisharp kind of tears apart everything in UU with a +2 Boost is a bit much. It punishes defog insanely hard, with pretty much no good switchins. It was already probably gonna be a pretty solid UU pokemon beforehand IMO, but it's interaction with Defog is incredibly shitty for the tier.

because they're not good enough to be in any higher tiers. The only one in that list I think could actually ever be problematic is BD Zangoose on a good day, but I'm pretty doubtful.

dittoing literally everything everyone else has said, FEAR is as close to being problematic as fucking subseed jumpluff lmao

Basically. It went from Zoroark being a possibility and Hippowdon being unlikely to Hippo getting confirmed, and Zoroark being pushed off to some unknown time.

The literal only reason Tentacruel is OU in Gen 5 is because it's one of the only reliable spinners, (Starmie/Excadrill are pretty much your only other options, and Excadrill was banned for a long time) has pretty good passive recovery in Rain with Sludge + Rain Dish, and it's typing lets it answer some scary threats, such as Keldeo, Keldeo, and of course, Keldeo. Just look at it's literal only listed set in BW OU; Tentacruel's best use by far is as a spinner. But if we're getting widespread Defog usage, along with a metagame where Tentacruel's recovery is worse than ever, as well as the things it can check the best not even being out in the metagame to be a threat, it's suddenly a lot less relevant. Not only does Defog make Tenta super irrelevant in OU, but there are a TON of good Defoggers in UU now giving it massive competition.

The lists have been changed again, and this is (probably) gonna be the final iteration before the update actually comes out. The main reason for a good amount of these changes has to do with the new addition of Defog as a tutor move, giving it actual distribution, but there's other changes that were made before the Defog tutor thing and never put on this public list. Changes: Hippowdon Nonexistent -> OU Zoroark UU -> Nonexistent Galvantula NU -> UU Mienshao UU -> OU Gliscor UU -> OU Gligar NU -> UU Forretress OU -> UU Tentacruel UU -> NU Mismagius UU -> NU Mantine NU -> UU Bisharp UU -> BL Honchkrow NU -> UU Pretty sure this covers everything that's changed from the old lists.

So, you're right that in later gens (noticeable in gen 5, but gets really bad in gen 6+) that team matchups become a HUGE problem, and the problem with matchups from the massive amount of available pokemon caused a shift in tiering philosophy Gen 6+ on Smogon. Part of the reason Arena Trap and Shadow Tag got flatbanned; Trapping exacerbates the difficulty of bad matchups to absurd level. With that being said, splitting up NU into RU and NU doesn't actually solve the problem at all. All your suggestion does is rename NU to RU, and put a tier below it. With that being said, the existence of a tier below RU doesn't make your suggested "70 relevant pokemon" any less relevant; You can still use NU pokemon in RU. It sounds like your argument is "NU is too big, team matchups will be a huge problem, we need a tier below it to split up the good pokemon between the new RU and NU", but that doesn't actually lower the amount of pokemon in the newly proposed RU tier at all; By your logic, it will have the exact same problem. Yeah, the new NU will have less pokemon, but all you're doing is pushing the problem to a new name instead of actually fixing it.

Trick Room isn't the only reason for min speed, maximizing Gyro Ball damage is huge on the pokemon that run it, and the difference between 0 speed and 25 or 31 is actually a lot bigger than you might expect.

If you think there isn't any substance to it, then you obviously just aren't going to agree. With that being said, I will explain it one more time: The reason Hidden Power was nerfed in Gen 6 from 70 BP to 60 is because was used on too many pokemon, too often, as a coverage move. It was never "Too good", it's not a broken move, and it doesn't make things broken, it's just run too frequently and on too many things because at 70 BP, it's that good as a coverage option on anything special/mixed, and sometimes even physical mons, due to the fact it can be any type. That's it. End of discussion. If you don't think that is problematic whatsoever, then you obviously don't and will never have a problem with 70 BP Hidden Power, so of course you don't think the argument for 60 BP has any substance. Because on a fundamental level, your idea of "problematic" is so far removed from the reason it was nerfed that there's nothing else to say; You simply don't agree that the reason for the nerf is valid. And you're welcome to think that, but if you do think that, then don't stand there and say that the reason has not been presented to you. It has. You're simply choosing to ignore it, because you don't agree with it. But that doesn't mean the reason doesn't exist.

Ahhh, I'm sure you felt so clever saying this. You really got me. Refuted my points and made me topple. You got the Sp.Def drop and crit, I never stood a chance. Honestly, I don't know why I bothered, when my posts are going to get destroyed like this. Damn. I'll ask the mods to delete my account to save myself the embarrassment.

You do understand that 90% of the argument by the TC to Darkshade/the devs at the time for 70 BP was basically "We'll have the special split, but not gen 4+ moves, so stronger BP is necessary to cover up the holes we'll have for coverage options". The fact we're going back to 60 BP with gen 5 is literally exactly the expected outcome, since the reason for 70 BP literally no longer exists. You're welcome to disagree with 60 BP, but it was a sensible nerf in Gen 6, and the only reason we diverged from it is because it wasn't sensible for PokeMMO. With Gen 5 though, it more than makes sense; There's no reason for such a universally splashable coverage move to exist.

Not every team needs walls. In fact, I'd argue most teams outside of stall don't necessarily need anything resembling a dedicated wall.

Probably Ban Dugtrio and then presumably in a later update it would have Arena Trap removed from it. I guess you could call it a complex ban, but again, it's not a complex ban in the main reason we avoid them; It's not confusing or unnecessarily convoluted. Nobody is going to make their team and realize "ah shit, arena trap is banned on Dugtrio", because they'll never have gotten that far in the first place. If by "Other kinds of complex bans" you mean, like, removing moves for a pokemon's movepool, idk, we'll see. That seems like a more likely option than changing base stats in my opinion.

For other stuff, a good example would be, say, removing Arena Trap from Dugtrio if it goes to Ubers again.

The Japanese actually do hate Heracross for some reason, lmao. Also, not arguing against Outrage or the dragons in OU right now, although I do think they're super overhyped, I was mostly talking about actual gen 5. (With that being said, LF my boy Jirachi) A lot of gem moves were fucking dumb in VGC, but you're right about Draco Meteor; Of course, that's why they just removed gems. Also, yeah, I forgot about fighting types, but that doesn't really conflict with what I said; Fairy was their swiss army knife for Gen 6 to try and balance out the type chart as much as possible in 1 type. Resistance to Dark/Bug/Fighting and an immunity to Dragon, some of the best offensive types, especially after Dark got it's steel resistance removed and Knock Off added, and a weakness to Poison/Steel, some of the worst offensive types, and a counterbalance to Steel's nerf.

so like, I just feel compelled to say this because I've seen sooooooo many people hype up the dragons like crazy, but dragons were literally not problematic at all in gen 5. Except maybe Garchomp. But yknow, that was because of Sand Veil, and also, fuck Garchomp. Honestly, most of the dragons other than Multiscale Dragonite were decently low usage in OU, tbh. Salamence, Haxorus, and Hydreigon all saw kind of pitiful usage compared to what you might expect, in favor of weather mons, or the super bulky, multipurpose Dragonite. IMO Fairy Type wasn't just about keeping Dragons in check. While I'm sure Dragons played a part in it, with Fairy allowing them to push the envelope for dragons a bit farther, IMO Fairy was largely a balancing factor for the other type changes they made in Gen 6. Namely, nerfing Steel by making it neutral to Dark and Ghost. Adding Fairy gave Steel more offensive viability to compensate for this nerf, and gave Dark another resistance, something that was sorely needed after removing Steel's resistance to it.

First of all, there have been decisions made on what gets changed to future gen mechanics or kept as is based on their affect on comp a TON of times before, so this isn't new at all, idk what you're talking about. Second of all, you're talking about using Gen 1 Hyper Beam as if it wouldn't be the hypest thing in the fucking world.

BigFatToad only gets Water Absorb as a hidden ability, so it's terrible against rain.

Drizzle.

Not right now, but apparently it should be added somewhere between "Soon" and "Eventually".

Update 2: The UU list is now in the OP. Still quite subject to change, but now everyone should have an idea of what NU, UU, and OU will look like.