pachima

I am honestly not against the idea of winrate being an important factor, but I absolutely despise how it has been used for years when it is convenient, and outright ignored when it is not. Not too long ago, P-z was banned because it shared higher than acceptable usage and winrates (Amongst other things). I don't disagree with the argument, but turns out shaymin has consistently seen better usage and winrates (And arguable the most insane numbers we had ever seen recently), and no one bats an eye. Rotom-wash had maintained better statistics than Gallade in a tier where it was arguably broken (Before Amoonguss had access to regen), however, those were deemed irrelevant for some reason. For the past few months Amoonguss had insane winrates coupled with abover average usages, both better than Gallade's, but it was fine. So, is Gallade broken? I don't know. But if we want to use winrate as a factor, then we should consistently use it as a factor, regardless of a pokemon, and regardless of how convenient it is. If we do that, then lots of other things are higher in that priority bracket that Gallade is. There are lots of ways to argue how problematic Gallade is, but winrate is not one of them, unless of course we also use it for everything else. And besides, Rotom has almost twice the usage of Gallade right now. Due to the way our winrate is displayed, skewed by mirror matches, the difference between both's winrates isn't that significant to properly claim Gallade has a true better winrate than Rotom.

More effective with Bulk up tbh

1- I am very confused. Why are you claiming Bold p2 counters dnite, but then proceed to share a calc where it proves it does not? 2- CB ape isn't destroyed by Impish Garchomp. In fact, it has a very high chance of just 2hko through it whout chomp ever being able to hit back 3- All of those lose for Superpower Taunt Hydreigon, which is a valid set, except Mienshao, which is irrelevant because it is in the tier for a relatively short time, meaning it didn't exist in a time where Hydreigon still had access to the same wallbreaking capabilities without being deemed uber worthy.

Adding to what gb said. Having such dramatic difference between the first 2 months and the third makes the system very prone to drop or to rise Pokemon that, for some reason, had an high or low unnatural usage spike in that third month, as well as locking it into the new tier for 3 more months, only to just come back to the tier he was before once again, pretty much rendering any adaptation process the tier has undergone potentially moot. But the real question is: Why is nothing done about this? Worse. Why is everything being dismissed about this? Suggestions were given, but no effort into looking and discussing at them was done. What is so important about this mess that you absolutely refuse to get it changed?

They can analyze as much as they want a frozen tier. But once 20 or so threats drop all at once because how flawed the current system is, every and any analysis they have concluded is ultimately irrelevant because the new tier with all those 20 or so threats is pretty much a complete different tier than the one they have supposedly analyzed.

Sadly yes. I admit I overlooked this quite a bit. Ideally we would fight against them being so apathic to actually actively change stuff once it has been accepted. Could we do it? Probs not, but I want to at least fight that lazy design.

Having an higher chance of setting crits is ultimately irrelevant to the Gallade discussion in whether it may or may not be Uber offensive. An increased crit rate has 12.5% odds. If this was any relevant, so would be virtually every rng move, and we would be calling every Pokemon that can carry Ice beam Uber offensive because it has a 10% freeze, which is objectively far superior than a 12.5% crit. Having no counters by itself doesn't mean a Pokemon is Uber offensive either. Just because you are comfortable with 80% of teams being heavy stall that just have to hard switch on whatever comes, neglecting any sort of balance whatsoever, doesn't mean that's how it should be, Also, Gallade isn't the only Pokemon that has no answers. But if this doesn't necessarily mean a Pokemon is Uber offensive, what does? Nothing in particular, but rather a set of different characteristics the pokemon may possess. How often can it come to pressure things? How safe can it shift momentum, even against walls? How risky is it if you fail a prediction and how often is the user forced to predict right? Those are the questions you should try to answer if you want to convince anyone else of what is right in your head. Otherwise, Mixed Dnite would have to be banned. It can't be answered properly. Otherwise, Mixed Garchomp would also have to be banned prior to Gliscor having access to its HA. Why is Gallade any different? Is it just because it is a complete new Pokemon in the tier and you are terrified of at least trying to adapt to it? Is it because it may and it will disrupt the teams you have built so you have to rebuild them and you don't want? Who cares. Adaptation happens, accept it. Adaptation is important, and that is something that has yet to happen here. I would understand if a thread was made one month from now, but it hasn't even been a week. Why? Because it is Uber offensive? Why? Because if it predicts right it has no answers? Then ban other stuff (And having no answers is even a much more serious issue in lower tiers, but I won't digress). In a game that inherently has a delay in how it adapts to new stuff due to how breeding and building works, in a game that can take several months to actually see visible change to stuff implemented, are you telling me a less than a week old test was enough to tell you whatever? If you asked me if Gallade sharpness should be implemented I'd say no. But now that it is here and has already exhausted player's resources, it deserves at the very least a testing period. 1 month? 2 months? I don't know. But definitely not less than a week. Now, to answer my own question. How consistently can Gallade actually be on the field and safely spam their stabs? Not very consistently. It doesn't have many switch-ins in the meta, which means it won't be pressuring often, and most of all, it is absolutely incapable of blindly spamming their stab moves, since both of them are immuned and resisted by lots of Pokemon. Gallade is also forced to predict their stabs so to accomplish anything relevant, and even worse, it is often forced to rely on weaker coverage moves to deal with potential switches. This is not Uber offensive to me, or at least not immediately. I'm not done yet. I've been reading some "arguments" here and I am trying to understand how in the world is anyone supposed to change their minds by reading them. - Gallade is faster than most walls - Great. An offensive Pokemon is faster than walls. Superb. Is this our new metric for being uber worthy? Have we reached so low that we no longer want our walls to comfortably deal with any and every threat but we also want our walls to be faster than them? Wtf? - Gallade has the strongest psychic physical stab - Great. Tyranitar also now has the strongest rock special stab. Please ban it. (Does it sound dumb? Good, cause it should) - blah blah blah crit blah blah blah - Amazing. Ban every tri attack user. Ban every ice beam user. And don't forget Togekiss. Ban it too. See what happens when you don't elaburate further in your "arguments"? When you don't explain what is in your mind that makes you believe something is a problem? All of this may sound right in your head, but by not explaining why it does so you can't convince those who do not see it the same way. But I am not saying Gallade isn't a problem. Actually, I personally think it can be. But why should be my opinion valued higher than a proper test conducted? There is a massive difference between discussing a Pokemon that already was in the tier at full or at least close to full power, in where you can safely say it shouldn't come back, and a brand new Pokemon that has never seen the tier it now is in. Test it. If it remains a glaring problem after the tier has visibly adapted, then you can properly discuss it. TLDR; None. Go read it all.

This logic foils to itself. If people replace older moves for the new hazards, then the hazards make it a better Pokemon. Since Quagsire is already a very dominant wall in the tier, it is more than understandable that it should be at least discussed.

@ArtOfKillingMy bro. You should stop making too much sense. This is the wrong game for it.

? I see quite the opposite Moxie never was the issue. Mixed set was, and nothing changed in the tier to stop that one set. Only? How is it the only, and what have you discussed, if you have discussed at all. Transparency please. If by any chance any of these irrelevant things rise because of Salamence alone, then it goes to show how centralizing this beast is. Plus, Sneasel and Vanilluxe are completely useless in a tier where Empoleon is one of the most common Pokemon used. Lastly, none of those 3 are able to switch against Salamence, no matter what the situation is.

This can't be real. The tier is completely dominated by Empoleon/shaymin/P2 and Crobat, all of them have been maintaining an absurdly high winrate as well as insane usage. How in the goddamn hell are people complaining about Crawdaunt, a Pokemon that has been rendered so irrelevant with the latest changes that it has 49,71% winrate. Wow. Just wow. There are plenty of things much more important to discuss and to focus on that Crawdaunt.

Beautifully put. Thanks

I promised myself I wouldn't reply to you anymore, but since I was kinda at fault here, I'll have to. You are right. When a mon is suspected as offensive uber, you should look at the wall it breaks. I am sorry if, in my needless sarcasm, I lost clarity and went to focus on something I didn't want to focus at all. What I meant is that posting random calcs without any context whatsoever tells me nothing. If it did, some other wallbreakers would be offensive uber too. They are not. Why? Maybe because they cannot pressure the field often. Maybe because they cannot shift momentum against those walls it is supposed to beat, in a reliable or consistent way. Or maybe even they require such insane amounts of prediction to work. None of this is immediately proven or disproven by a bunch of calcs. Do I think Nidoqueen is an issue? Yes. Do I convince anyone of that with a random carefully picked list of calcs? No. Calcs are supposed to support any argument. Not to be the argument. Again, I am sorry, if I went over my head with this particular subject and deviated from what I really wanted to claim. 1- Explained above. 2- This is only true in your head. However, since I unfortunately cannot convince you otherwise, I'll just leave it at that. Either way, to clarify, and I don't give a damn to whether you choose to believe in it or you don't, I was actually one of the very few people that was against, and explicitely argued so in TC, that in the P2 ban argument, we shouldn't label it as anything, simply because I didn't believe it correctly fit any of the nonsense labels we had at the moment. Was it offensive uber? No. Was it Defensive Uber? Maybe, but not quite, since its main problem wasn't really being able to switch on most things but also pressure and punish to extreme levels Offensive teams. For this reason, if it depended on me, I wouldn't label P2 as anything, and would just create a thread, trying to explain why this mon was too strong for the tier instead. I will let you take a wild guess to whoever forced us to imprint a label on anything we were voting at the time, for absolutely no reason at all. And for God sake don't even mention the PZ issue you are apparently so delusional in your created lie you refuse to let go, because I have better things to waste my time on. Thank you.

Damn. A wallbreaker beats walls. Who would have thought? In other news, water is wet. (Except Volcanion. It's a gas) What are these calcs supposed to show? That Nidoqueen, a wallbreaker, indeed breaks walls? How does it do against Offense? How easily can it actually shift momentum versus those walls? How easily can it exert pressure on offensive threats? Maybe Nidoqueen is indeed busted, but these calcs tell me absolutely nothing except that a wallbreak is really able to break walls. Next. Why are you obliged to follow the usage, at all, when the tiers are a mess, when UU is in such a chaotic place that it lost 10 different Pokemon to NU in the span of 2 months? Why are you dropping anything at all, independently of how busted or not it is? What about let the tiers stabilize even in the slightest before just collapse everything at once, for no reason other than to further kill these lower tiers? Will you fix it? No, you won't. Otherwise, you'd start now, which is fairly obvious you aren't doing. You keep pushing responsibilities for the next month. It has been almost half an year where NU and UU are at their lowest points ever, only second to when Dugtrio was allowed in NU. Are you expecting to accomplish, by just nuking 5-6 different things at the same time, that by some divine miracle, it fixes the tier? Even worse than that. Half of these things that are about to potentially drop, please take a closer look at what they are, are all a direct influence to the sudden rise of Toxicroak in UU, mostly due to both Feraligatr and Crawdaunt gaining access to their HA. Finally, why are people in this game consistently mentioning defensive answers to potentially uber defensive walls? What in hell is this argument? A Pokemon cannot be uber defensive, because it is walled ???????????????????????? Excuse me, what? I don't care what defensive answers deny a defensive threat, not even in the slightest. I care how many offensive Pokemon that defensive thread handles, how many it doesn't, in what circumstances it does and does not. Unfortunately it is not the first time a defensive behemoth that completely centralizes the tier is deemed fine just because other defensive pokemon handle it. Is Vaporeon indeed uber defensive? I don't know, and after reading your justification, I know the exact jackass nothing, except that another defensive Pokemon handles it??? Justifying a defensive threat by not even speaking about offense is, by itself, laughable in way too many ways. (Oh, and I can't wait for the : B-but Sceptile and Eel handle it. Nice. 2 out of how many?) Note I am not necessarily against or for some specific decisions. I am against the fact people are unable to actually come up with their decisions, and think it is wiser to just come up with random nonsense facts that have nothing to do with their arguments, just to show they are clueless to whatever they talk about. Tierings aside. Can we really just ignore usage for the time being and stop murdering NU for no reason other than to feel obliged to follow a policy that has been outdated ever since 1535? End of rant. Thanks for putting up with my bs.

congratulations @Gunthug. Solid winner. And congratulations for everyone else who got something. Thanks @Shadow for this beautiful thing, and for the other judges who had to evaluate so many entries. Props for the explicit point system as well 🙂 Next one when?