Maelstrom

ban wobbuffet maybe?

I love how it is not limited to OU pokemons only.
Thank you for guide!

If you wanna play games, please, learn english, you can't live in the internet nowadays not knowing english, and it's not even hard to learn.
 
Yes, I am a Brazilian too.

Awesome idea to raise the incentive of playing other tiers. I really, really like it. The way I would see this is already putting the prize money (or pokemon/ shiny, w/e) like on GTL, pick a date and submit it. Obviously there can be some fee so devs can create another moneysink. I can only see benefits from that suggestion.

Alright, so if you play this game for its comp aspect the games boring af right now. Unless you enjoy OU, which i dont and i know other people dont either, so active OU matchmaking doesnt really help here. People who wanna play LC, Dubs, UU or NU are lost. Obviously we cant have an official every day, so i thought itd might be a good idea to give some power to the people and allow us to host stuff in automated lobbies. What i think of is an additional tab in the pvp section with a list of lobbies for tournaments that are waiting to be signed up for.
 
So lets say im bored af and i wanna have some tournament action. I could check that tab and see if anybodies hosting some funky NU stuff or if i dont see any i could open my own lobby and let people know that theres other people who seek action. We wait til the required sign ups are reached and have an automated tournament.
 
Could have entry fees and be winner takes it all or regular 1st, 2nd, 3rd payout structure, so no staff sponsored prizes needed.
 
I honestly dont know how difficult this would be to implement, but im tired of waiting weeks for another tournament, get 1st rounded make rd4 and wait another week or more. The only way to practice tiers that arent OU right now is by scrimming teammates or friends, which gets boring as well at some point. So yeah, would love to see this happen.
 
Oh an upvote, dont just like, ty.
 

Thank you.  Orange's original Machamp post was propaganda designed to sway the argument over to the proban side without giving any valid reasoning and it caused people to debate for 20 posts as if conk was already uber.  Trickery like that is unfortunate but hopefully now we all know better.
 
 
 
Anyway I have two reasons for not wanting it banned:
 
 
1) No one  I've seen has given a good answer to why conkeldurr is broken despite its multiple checks that only fail to wall it because of one uncommon move.  Cores like Gliscor and Reuniculus only fail to wall conks with the specific set of payback and ice punch.  This is not a common set and even if it does appear conk still has to outpredict to win since it is slower than most switches that come in.  Many combinations of similar pokes can be put up to wall conk in this manner and combos like this have many other uses besides just walling conk.
 
 
2) The update has only been out for two weeks and the meta has not had time to settle especially now that sheer force is disabled.  I don't see proof that conk is so broken that it needs to be quickbanned therefore meaning it should be left in for at least a couple of months until people have an opportunity to learn the meta better.
 
  

Hariyama is pretty much a worse Machamp. It could compete with it on a bulk up set probably but that's it

Bringing the machamp subject to this thread...
 

 
What about Hariyama? I guess it can do about the same, but with a bit less speed / atk and more bulk.

That was fast, thanks!

That was fast, thanks!

keep momentum with uturn and voltswitch and smash stuff.

I just told you why drain punch is the superior option against walls.  Beating the walls and still being near full health is a lot better than being hurt.   Machamp can't go in and bulk up, beat the wall, then still have enough health to do things later.  Conkeldurr can beat walls with drain punch and bulk up and still have plenty of health for later.  You said Machamp is just as good at stallbreaking as conkeldurr when its clearly not.
 
I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt thinking "maybe he just forgot about drain punch" but after your response its clear to me you made the machamp comment with an agenda in mind rather than facts.  I hate stall probably as much as you hate conkeldurr, but if there was a chansey suspect I wouldn't sit there and claim its fine to ban it because audino will fill its vacancy.  Beyond being a bad argument its just not true.

Why, why, why is this left up for a day without getting torn to pieces?  You fail to mention the most important difference:  Machamp doesn't learn drain punch.  Because of that it doesn't get any recovery meaning the flame orb guts set is worse than the no guard dynamic punch, stone edge set.  If guts is run it would probably need leftovers to work and bulk up is shaky.  They just aren't the same poke at all beyond typing.  
 
Still interesting stall gets a major, major buff with the update and before the meta is even in play for a month people want to ban the most effective stallbreaker.  Just bad form.  Let the meta settle.

IMO Heracross would be a much better alternative as a Flame Orb Guts abuser, its much faster, has access to Close Combat, STAB Megahorn shits on Reun, Night Slash can take care of Cofagrigus and Jellicent with prior damage and Facade or Stone Edge are both solid for last move.
 
People are sleeping on Heracross tbh
 
EDIT: My bad, Machamp also gets Close Combat, but still

Gengar doesn't have to run Focus Blast. It's just an uncomp move that a lot of players would rather not have to rely on. Gengar Sub Pain Split Focus Blast is just broken af right now because it can stall Blissey/Chansey  and force the opposing player to lose after 60 mins because of the dmg rule. 
 

I think Togekiss should move some ranks up, since it have gained some popularity and proved to be threatening enough to make you have
something ready to at least check it, even not being at top usage. B- is way too low for it.

Personally I am with GB on this one (what is happening) - I think it's too early to make a decision. Let's be patient and see if the meta is able to adjust to the brand new flame/toxic orb-guts set

no longer cry and build a decent team, conkeldurr is very easy to stop, novice!

Defensive Rapidash can switch into and beat p2 with toxic.
@gbwead

This makes no sense. If a 5v6 where Conk is not coming and where the player with 6 mons doesnt win, why is this a discussion for Conk? Seems more a discussion for whatever People use along with Conk. You are putting too many variables on conks to sweep. You are assuming you can switch in against everything Conk has to switch out, which you cannot. Let me ask you this. Lets ignore Conkeldurr and focus on reuniclus for a while. Let´s also assume you wait with reuniclus until stuff like hydreigon, scizor and tyranitar are down. Then you come in, calm mind and sweep, how is this any different from what you are trying to achieve with Conk?
Let´s assume you save a sniper kingdra until chansey/Blissey are gone. Then you come in, focus energy and destroy everything in its path. How is it any different? 
This same argument can be used on too many pokemons in the tier. IF what you say is true, if people can indeed switch against everything people throw vs Conkeldurr, then this should be a discussion about those things and not about Conk itself.
Also, you seem to be assuming people can´t run more than 1 check for Conkeldurr, which also doesnt make sense. If you take the 39 Mons out of OU, and choose 6 completely random, odds are you have at least 2 of them that beat easily Conkeldurr. 
If people choose not to run Pokemon that beat Conkeldurr, when there are actually a lot, I feel people want to be slapped by Conkeldurr. 
If out of 39 Mons, people choose 5 or 6 that cant defeat Conkeldurr when like 15 of the tier can, that´s bad teambuilding.

I have never seen a game in which all 6 mons want to jump on the field at the same time. Keeping something in the back is very normal for any game without team preview, especially if theres a lot of other good Pokemon to keep making threats or setting something before a final sweep (see DPP).
 
On a more relevant note, since I've been thinking about what GB said where it might be checked by a tandem of threats making it not too broken, just really strong.
 
How many of these mons in OU does Conk reliably setup on, and another question after one boost, how many does he cripple or just blow away? I don't really have an opinion on this part so this could be a point for discussion.
 
Edit: Just for people who want to post calcs and things heres an example of what Conk can't reliably setup on
 
Gengar
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 126-149 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
 
With damage like that, Conk cannot get a sweep going especially since he's slower, and the priority move doesn't effect gengar. Can he demolish gengar with payback or ice punch? Yes, but he took a load of damage and might be dying soon.
 

All I see is kingdra subbing on mantine, focus energing on the switch, agility as it loses the subs, and then 6-0 with draco meteor (Providing it doesnt miss)
Can we ban kingdra yet?
Secondly, ppl should start learning what checking and countering means. From what some posts I have read, some have no idea and still are commenting.
Third, I said before and I will repeat, conkeldurr can´t switch in infinitely. Neither can the other 5 Pokemon of the opposing team switch infinitely against whatever opponent sends that beat Conkeldurr. And if you can´t counter infinitely whatever opponent sends against conkeldurr, you also can´t switch out conkeldurr to safety that often.
Fourth, People say we should not benefit some styles over another. For instance, offense against stall. But from what I am seeing stall is still the most used strat in this community. It goes both ways. You can´t simply kill offense so people can just stall with their 6 Mons all the time they wish just because its the predominant style. Both styles need to be balanced, and so far, Stall is still superior to Offense (Btw, the argument where conk kills stall is completely useless because Togekiss is in the tier. And if that thing doesn´t absolutely utterly destroy most kinds of style, idk what it does)
Fifth, conkeldurr can only have 1 or 2 at max, coverage moves. For some reason I can still not understand people claim Conkeldurr is able to beat 2 or 3 Pokemons of the opposing team just to reveal its scouting moves. I really don´t need to explain what is wrong about this. Unless of course conkeldurr is so busted and so broken that a single Move of them kills 2 Pokemons at once.
Lastly, just wanted to mention all this wasn´t specifically directed to you in particular (Just quoted you because that funny little image, where from what I saw, that guy was using all the cool good mons without even thinking about synergy-  Maybe besides arca) No, this is directed to everyone. If they disagree, feel free to disagree but at least gib me a valid reason for that.
 
 

Its only a draw/lose if you try to wall it with pure stall.  Anything like starmie or gliscor or anything else reasonable is a lose/win sometimes with two chances for the non-conkel to get it right.  I guarantee we could just poll what type of teams everyone uses and if people were honest we'd get a really accurate correlation between people who play stall and people who think conk should be banned.  Maybe play something with attacking moves.
 
105/95/65 on 45 base speed just isn't broken even with an effective 160 attack stat.  Go build an offensive/balanced team with two fighting resists that aren't both weak to thunder or ice or rock and then play it for a few games.  It might change your opinion of how easy conk is to deal with.  I actually went through and saw if smogon ever banned something with <50 base speed and all I got was a denied vote on reniclus and a mega sableye ban  that was because of its stalling.
 
The worst part about this is if you guys got the small things right then at least it would be an interesting debate.  But most of the people here seem to think guts is preferred over sheer force and that stone edge is better than rock slide (-2.5 power difference +10% accuracy).  Anyway, I don't know what else to say. 
 
Ladder requirements were very helpful on the simulators to weed out people who weren't equipped to make influential decisions.  Without scouting,  a lot of stall players would find making them very difficult.  Here, I don't really know what determines whose voice matters since the ranked ladder doesn't even go by elo correctly.  The highest person on the ladder has a 53% winrrate just because they played a bunch of games.  Then no one broke the 80% winrrate which is weird but the 70% winrates are a lot lower than the 50's and 60's just because of game number.  Anywa,y that's a tangent.  I just don't get how this ban ultimately gets decided.  If its by this thread then that's not good.

what? you have no basis for accusing completely unnamed people of nefarious reasons for wanting to ban conk. I have no problems with discussing OU in general on this thread, but I was specifically talking about people who think Conk SHOULDNT be banned because "then X will happen." Not only is this pure speculation, but we also don't keep broken things in the tier on the off chance something else might become broken later. If Conk is busted and OP, it'll go. Then we'll sort out what happens after
 
This was why I was personally against a Draco meteor complex ban - because it opens up the floodgates for suggestions like this. "Hey since pokemon X had a complex ban to keep it from being OP why not do the same thing with pokemon Y?" And I'm not criticizing you for saying this - you are totally right and logical to think this way. However, complex bans are a dangerous thing to abuse and, IMO, should only be reserved for extreme situations where a regular flat ban isn't adequate. So, my personal opinion is that conk should just be banned if its too strong, and there's no reason to complicate things with a complex ban (not to mention the weeks long discussion we'll have about WHAT to complex ban)

So many of those can easily get thunder waved on the switch and be crippled for the rest of the game. 
Then after that some of your counters just flat out lose even if they work against blissey.
 
 
4 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 328-386 (45.9 - 54%)
4 Atk Hydreigon Superpower vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 238-282 (33.9 - 40.1%) 
 
Reuniclus doesn't counter.  Actualyl a very good example of why chansey is more broken than blissey.
 
+6 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 552-649 (78.6 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 756-889 (105.8 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Sure if you let it get up to +6 it can kill chansey, but chansey can switch on any turn and force some tunrs to be recovery through seismic toss so it doesn't actually beat it unless 1v1.
 
Tyranitar doesn't kill reliably either of them unless count 64% accuracy over two turns with stone edge reliable.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-430 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower over 4 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 257-305 (77.1 - 91.5%) -- not a KO
 
Chandelure doesn't counter. Mixed mence doesn't beat chansey.  Gengar requires a very specific set of taunt and thunderbolt to beat both which is kind of silly. 
 
Basically out of that whole list I agree with Darmanitan and Arcanine.  While some of the setup sweepers technically might work are meant to be late game sweepers and wont go through any  even poorly designed team.  For example, there's not going to be two setup chances with cloyster and it is not an acceptable switch when both teams both still have 6 pokes left. 
 
 
Sure, its possible to beat, but its not fun to play against because the calcs are just awkward and often require a lot of turn stalling to win.  Again, eviolite chansey stall is originally why I quit competitive play on smogon to come here.  I had a great record against it, but every time I played a 300 turn game I wanted to throw my computer out the window after even if I won.  It was fun how games were fast based and offensive here for a while.  The eviolite chansey is probably going to destroy that even if conk stays but more so if it is banned.