OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Munya]

The OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

 

This thread is for the community to make suggestions to the tier council for [Discussion] threads to be opened. All posts will be heavily moderated by myself and there are strict guidelines that all posters must follow when posting in this thread.

 

Rules:

• All Off Topic and low content posts will be removed, anyone found to continually be violating this rule will receive a posting restriction. 
• All requests must come with clear and concise argumentation to justify why a discussion thread will be opened by a tier council member. Posts like "X Pokemon needs to have a thread" or "X Pokemon needs to have a thread because it is really strong" will not be counted as valid and will be removed.
• Joke posts for Pokemon suggestions will be removed and considered spam.

 

Things to consider:

• You may want to provide damage calculations to strengthen your argument, this can be done here. Please remember to select the SM tab. 
• It would be beneficial to provide a clear reason why you feel this Pokemon needs to be discussed. For example, do you believe it falls under the Uber characteristic? The defensive characteristic? Ect....
• Think carefully before you suggest a Pokemon, it is not a competition to be the one who suggests the most Pokemon. Senile's guide to tiering discussions is a good place to start for those unfamiliar with tier discussions: https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/

All Competition Alley rules still apply!

Many thanks to previous tier leaders for the copy paste rules lists.

[Takens]

I would like to call a ban on Mamoswine since there's no way to stop him it's too much for this meta without the roost tutor on skarm. 
reasons: i mean you can 2 hit ko any physical wall, it has really good bulkyness with no hp invested, there's nothing to stop it without losing 1 or 2 pokes.

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 390-470 (92.8 - 111.9%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 224-265 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 195-235 (58.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 430-505 (102.1 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Edited November 26, 2017 by Takens

[suigin]

46 minutes ago, Takens said:

Icicle Spear (5 hits)

Skill link Mamoswine OP

 

He's a wallbreaker, just try to kill it rather than wall it, he's weak to every priority except ice shard, weak to common types, susceptible to burns. Don't think of this meta like the old mmo "let's have 4 walls that cover everything" meta, think more offensively.

Edited November 26, 2017 by suigin

[FNTCZ]

Ban on mamoswine? lol no thanks. we dont even have focus sash and he is weak to every good priority so hes not even guaranteed to set up rocks. he can be played around and it is by no means broken..

 

btw just two points more on mamo: 1 adamant mamo sucks. Jolly all the way and 2. If mamo were to be banned, what about all the fucking dragons he covers? they'd just run rampant.

Edited November 27, 2017 by FNTCZ

[Sashaolin]

 

8 hours ago, Takens said:

reasons: i mean you can 2 hit ko any physical wall

Bronzong ?

[RysPicz]

Mamoswine ban? Nope. There is only one poke which deserves an instant ban and it's a fucking dugtrio.

 

E:

As more about why Mamo should not get the boot:

Scizor's Bullet Punch fucks it really hard (Technician when?), same for Lucario's Bullet punch. Both resist ice shard. Metagross can deal quite a lot with it's own Bullet Punch too. Don't forget about STAB Aqua Jets from things like Kabutops or Azu.

 

Additionally, forget about a metagame where every pokemon has a perfect counter- we would have to get rid of Hydreigon, Mamoswine, Salamence, Dragonite and a crazy many more.

 

Regardless, imo Dugtrio should be instant banned- until we get team preview. With this, we might have a workaround for it.

Edited November 27, 2017 by RysPicz

[Kizhaz]

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

Mamoswine ban? Nope. There is only one poke which deserves an instant ban and it's a fucking dugtrio.

 

E:

As more about why Mamo should not get the boot:

Scizor's Bullet Punch fucks it really hard (Technician when?), same for Lucario's Bullet punch. Both resist ice shard. Metagross can deal quite a lot with it's own Bullet Punch too. Don't forget about STAB Aqua Jets from things like Kabutops or Azu.

 

Additionally, forget about a metagame where every pokemon has a perfect counter- we would have to get rid of Hydreigon, Mamoswine, Salamence, Dragonite and a crazy many more.

 

Regardless, imo Dugtrio should be instant banned- until we get team preview. With this, we might have a workaround for it.

Just unban Baton Pass, save your Jolteons :^)

[Opte]

0 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 316-372 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 218-258 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 398-471 (110.8 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 85-105 (25.1 - 31%) -- approx. 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 110-131 (32.5 - 38.7%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (112 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 264-312 (73.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 90-110 (22.8 - 27.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 144-172 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 264-312 (73.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 135-155 (29.1 - 33.4%) -- approx. 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 208-247 (44.9 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 168-198 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 284-336 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 80-95 (22.5 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 121-144 (34.1 - 40.6%) -- 48.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 96-114 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- 53.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (93 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 218-260 (60.7 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edited November 27, 2017 by Opte

[pachima]

I would like to start a discussion for volcarona, at least while we are at non fully implemented OU. Smogon´s top checks for volcarona are:

terrakion (Not implemented)

Heatran (Also not implemented)

Eviolite Chansey (Guess what, also not implemented) 

Blissey is the close we can have as a check but still I have seen volcas dispatching it with some care.

Also, stealth rock (Oh right, how could I forget, tutor for it still not implemented, meaning its use is much more limited than supposed)

Haxorus also seem somewhat stupid, almost forcing ppl to run ice shard mamo, but nowhere as close as volcarona is in this meta.

Also, banning mamoswine would be the same as banning every dragon in the tier lmao. They would be just too strong.

[pachima]

2 hours ago, Kizhaz said:

Just unban Baton Pass, save your Jolteons :^)

scarf dugtrio tho.

inb4 scarf baton pass jolteon.

[suigin]

37 minutes ago, pachima said:

I would like to start a discussion for volcarona, at least while we are at non fully implemented OU. Smogon´s top checks for volcarona are:

terrakion (Not implemented)

Heatran (Also not implemented)

Eviolite Chansey (Guess what, also not implemented) 

Blissey is the close we can have as a check but still I have seen volcas dispatching it with some care.

Also, stealth rock (Oh right, how could I forget, tutor for it still not implemented, meaning its use is much more limited than supposed)

Haxorus also seem somewhat stupid, almost forcing ppl to run ice shard mamo, but nowhere as close as volcarona is in this meta.

Also, banning mamoswine would be the same as banning every dragon in the tier lmao. They would be just too strong.

Use spdef Hippowdon, Azumarill, Toxic Blissey, Tentacruel and soon Scarf Mienshao.

 

I don't think we'll be quickbanning anything until everything (Or most things) are implemented

[pachima]

41 minutes ago, suigin said:

Use spdef Hippowdon, Azumarill, Toxic Blissey, Tentacruel and soon Scarf Mienshao.

 

I don't think we'll be quickbanning anything until everything (Or most things) are implemented

Only tentacruel and blissey can switch safely into volca out of those. Even then, blissey needs full health and close to it and toxic/twave and tenta needs toxic to avoid quiver dance spams. Unless they state specifically they will implement more stuff soon, I think we could start thinking on quickbans for the timebeing.

[Spaintakula]

1 hour ago, pachima said:

I would like to start a discussion for volcarona, at least while we are at non fully implemented OU. Smogon´s top checks for volcarona are:

terrakion (Not implemented)

Heatran (Also not implemented)

Eviolite Chansey (Guess what, also not implemented) 

Blissey is the close we can have as a check but still I have seen volcas dispatching it with some care.

Also, stealth rock (Oh right, how could I forget, tutor for it still not implemented, meaning its use is much more limited than supposed)

Haxorus also seem somewhat stupid, almost forcing ppl to run ice shard mamo, but nowhere as close as volcarona is in this meta.

Also, banning mamoswine would be the same as banning every dragon in the tier lmao. They would be just too strong.

Out of the dragons, haxorus is the one you worry about? Really?

And to add on the above mentioned counters, Dnite is also a soft check to it, when we get multiscale. 

Gen5 was also a time where bulky gyara was a thing too, and even if it wasn't, it still is a great switch-in vs it.

Idk why people think they HAVE to counter a +2 or +3 Volcarona. If you are looking for that, then you done fucked up in the first place.

[pachima]

1 minute ago, Spaintakula said:

Out of the dragons, haxorus is the one you worry about? Really?

And to add on the above mentioned counters, Dnite is also a soft check to it, when we get multiscale. 

Gen5 was also a time where bulky gyara was a thing too, and even if it wasn't, it still is a great switch-in vs it.

Idk why people think they HAVE to counter a +2 or +3 Volcarona. If you are looking for that, then you done fucked up in the first place.

I never mentioned +2 +3 volcarona, non set up volcarona can put holes, and on the thing it cant, then it can use quiver dance. Not sure about the dragons, probably the others are stronger, but haxorus was the only I usually see in mm.

[Spaintakula]

1 minute ago, pachima said:

I never mentioned +2 +3 volcarona, non set up volcarona can put holes, and on the thing it cant, then it can use quiver dance. Not sure about the dragons, probably the others are stronger, but haxorus was the only I usually see in mm.

Well you can't have everything. If you want quiver dance, you're meant to be a sweeper. If you want to be a wallbreaker, you're either forced to run specs on it, or LO, and if you want both, you're forced to be a LO Quiver dance volcarona that'll dent shit enough to get in range to be pleasantly removed by foresaid counters/checks, or even worse, revenge killers that don't care about whatever it is they face.

My point is, if you run the thing you mentioned, you're gonna have to micromanage your team so that volcarona won't stand on rocks and lose half it's health, or won't get outsped/killed by priority, cause in the end, it's still fragile.

[suigin]

1 minute ago, pachima said:

Even then, blissey needs full health and close to it and toxic/twave and tenta needs toxic to avoid quiver dance spams.

We discussed this in team chat, it doesn't need full health stop spreading this misinformation.

Scenario 1: Volcarona uses Quiver Dance Blissey Switches in

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 121-144 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Scenario 2: Volcarona uses Fiery Dance on the Switch, gets a boost then Bug Buzz

252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 55-66 (16.6 - 19.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 91-109 (27.4 - 32.9%) -- 78.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Scenario 3: Volcarona uses Fiery Dance on the switch, gets the boost then uses Quiver Dance (Gets Tox'd) then uses Bug Buzz

252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 55-66 (16.6 - 19.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 121-144 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Scenario 4: Same as 3 but Volcarona is Modest for some fuckall reason

252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 60-71 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 133-157 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Scenario 5: Same as 4 but Volcarona has Fiery Dance and Fire Blast for some fuckall reason.

252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 60-71 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 175-208 (52.8 - 62.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now I'm not going to construct a mathematical formula of who wins the chip damage fight between the lorb+toxic damage and the slightly high rolls of Fire Blast assuming it lands every time but it should be pretty clear that Volc still loses to Blissey 99% of the time.

 

Quote

B-but Dugtrio can trap it

Yeah but if it switches into its toxic then he cannot kill it, reversal set is the only thing that can ohko, at that point it can only screech at it on softboiled and hope for the best on eq spam.

 

Quote

Out of the dragons, haxorus is the one you worry about? Really?

And to add on the above mentioned counters, Dnite is also a soft check to it, when we get multiscale. 

Gen5 was also a time where bulky gyara was a thing too, and even if it wasn't, it still is a great switch-in vs it.

Idk why people think they HAVE to counter a +2 or +3 Volcarona. If you are looking for that, then you done fucked up in the first place.

Hypothetically speaking Volc can carry Hidden Powers to deal with these checks, they are still pretty solid though. CB's Dnite deals a solid 70-80% damage and with Lorb Recoil that leaves it very little room for a sweep.

 

 

Rain really weakens Volcarona too unless running that very specific rain counter set, that at this point noone should be using. TTar can also deal with some sets, we'll soon get Sand Rush,  Scarf Mence hits the same sped tier at +1, etc.

[Spaintakula]

1 minute ago, suigin said:

 

Rain really weakens Volcarona too unless running that very specific rain counter set, that at this point noone should be using. TTar can also deal with some sets, we'll soon get Sand Rush,  Scarf Mence hits the same sped tier at +1, etc.

Yeah, the most common being hp rock, ground or water to get the extra boost vs the rain you said. And most of the time, the HP is really only to stop pokemon we probably won't have. (heatran/lando/) tenta since we do have it. Removing giga drain from it really makes it only a lategame sweeper, and a situational one at that, increasing the micromanaging need I mentioned beforehand. No giga opens up a few more things that can switch to it and potentially cripple it.

[xXBlu3BreathXx]

Hold up, what kind of Blissey spread is that? 4hp and 252+spdef makes no sense, you get way more value out of 252(or 172 for leftovers)hp and 252def+ since Blissey eats all special hits anyway. Regardless, in the tournament yesterday I managed to two hit a Blissey with Volcarona. 

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 175-207 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I know I got a roll but this means Volcarona can still beat Blissey. I'm in no way advocating for the ban of Volcarona just yet, it seems strong but always has some counter to it depending on the set, priority from Dragonite, Azumarill, Kabutops, Bisharp and somewhat Lucario also dent it hard or OHKO it. 

 

On another note, I think we forgot that Dugtrio has 100 base attack here, this thing is not fun to play against, the only way to possibly punish Dugtrio is to have a flying/levitating setup Pokemon in the back to abuse the CB lock, even then Dugtrio can just freely come in to trap if you have a check/counter to said flying/levitation Pokemon. I believe it warrants a discussion.

[suigin]

1 minute ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Hold up, what kind of Blissey spread is that? 4hp and 252+spdef makes no sense, you get way more value out of 252(or 172 for leftovers)hp and 252def+ since Blissey eats all special hits anyway. Regardless, in the tournament yesterday I managed to two hit a Blissey with Volcarona. 

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 175-207 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I know I got a roll but this means Volcarona can still beat Blissey. I'm in no way advocating for the ban of Volcarona just yet, it seems strong but always has some counter to it depending on the set, priority from Dragonite, Azumarill, Kabutops, Bisharp and somewhat Lucario also dent it hard or OHKO it. 

 

On another note, I think we forgot that Dugtrio has 100 base attack here, this thing is not fun to play against, the only way to possibly punish Dugtrio is to have a flying/levitating setup Pokemon in the back to abuse the CB lock, even then Dugtrio can just freely come in to trap if you have a check/counter to said flying/levitation Pokemon. I believe it warrants a discussion.

That Blissey spread is the Smogon spread, and possibly the kind you should be using in a meta with Volcarona around.

So speaking of Dugtrio, I've seen a few complains about it, I personally found it very underwhelming since the lack of Focus Sash heavily limits the things it can actually trap, the amount of priority users and bulky set up also heavily limit it, but my set is probably incredibly shitty so what has everyone else experienced when dealing with Duggy?

[Spaintakula]

19 minutes ago, suigin said:

That Blissey spread is the Smogon spread, and possibly the kind you should be using in a meta with Volcarona around.

So speaking of Dugtrio, I've seen a few complains about it, I personally found it very underwhelming since the lack of Focus Sash heavily limits the things it can actually trap, the amount of priority users and bulky set up also heavily limit it, but my set is probably incredibly shitty so what has everyone else experienced when dealing with Duggy?

Smogon spreads don't help as much as you'd think though, seeing how our gen5 meta and bw back then/right now isn't the same at all.

Probably said before, yes, but we all know no one's gonna rely on smogon after adjusting on their own in this metagame we're molding.

[xXBlu3BreathXx]

4 minutes ago, suigin said:

That Blissey spread is the Smogon spread, and possibly the kind you should be using in a meta with Volcarona around.

So speaking of Dugtrio, I've seen a few complains about it, I personally found it very underwhelming since the lack of Focus Sash heavily limits the things it can actually trap, the amount of priority users and bulky set up also heavily limit it, but my set is probably incredibly shitty so what has everyone else experienced when dealing with Duggy?

"The EVs have been used to maximize defenses while a Calm Nature is used to allow her to absorb special attacks more easily." lol with reasoning like this idk what to say. Anyway, I'm just presuming here but I'm pretty sure the rise of fighting types in BW might have made people use this as the standard spread to just avoid sponging physical hits. However, I don't think this makes any sense here since our current OU list's special attackers get shafted by Blissey even with just hp invest. Aside from this, many players have already made Chansey's with this spread, which they would happen to evolve for the current meta. Yeah I know this reasoning isn't very concrete as players adapt eventually but we will see this spread going around for a while. 

Spoiler

Also Smogon gen 5 OU will be very different to our mmo OU, I wouldn't rely on any "standard set" when it comes to walls and some other mons that have new moves from gen 7 movepools/abilities.

 

[Kimikozen]

3 hours ago, pachima said:

I would like to start a discussion for volcarona, at least while we are at non fully implemented OU. Smogon´s top checks for volcarona are:

terrakion (Not implemented)

Heatran (Also not implemented)

Eviolite Chansey (Guess what, also not implemented) 

Blissey is the close we can have as a check but still I have seen volcas dispatching it with some care.

Also, stealth rock (Oh right, how could I forget, tutor for it still not implemented, meaning its use is much more limited than supposed)

Haxorus also seem somewhat stupid, almost forcing ppl to run ice shard mamo, but nowhere as close as volcarona is in this meta.

Also, banning mamoswine would be the same as banning every dragon in the tier lmao. They would be just too strong.

mence, mantine, tanga berry ttar, chandelure, stealth rocks, dnite, pelipper can all sorta handle volc to respectable extent. i don't think we should ban yet especially when rocks are gonna become more common soon and stuff like mantine getting roost being rly good.

[Kizhaz]

I think with the addition of actual good special fighting moves, sp.def investment on Bliss isnt a bad idea. That said phys def still helps with psyshock

[Kebaber]

Not sure how Dugtrio on gen7 steroids is allowed in a meta lacking team preview. Anyone care to explain why?

[OrangeManiac]

Just my opinion but should we actually wait until everything works until we can realistically discuss about anything metagame related, let alone discussing to ban something.