Phase II; PokeMMO with IV physical/special split (Suspect testing Dragonite and Gyarados)

[YagamiNoir]

But that's my point. Dnite is also slow. And it's not like ice beams are not flying around everywhere so it's going to have a hard time coming in.

Tbh I think part of the issue is this: most people just try to take out pokes and now are starting to see that when they take out poke B dnite can come in on a free switch and force the poke that killed it out. For example snorlax vrs starmie, and snorlax pursuits statmoe. Opponent can send in dnite and force the switch and if then the opponent that had snorlax is weak or doesn't have a wall to take this hit or predict wrong then it makes dnite look op. But in reality dnite is hard to bring in and doesn't have the speed ttomake a threat.

Dnite usually run bulk to take that ice beam but now with things like swampert around its hard for it to come in till late game.

Mence on the other hand you could argue that you can bring it in any time because of the speed and intimidate.

Dnite does not have that. And that's why I said about gyardos being seen more with the bulk intimidate and that speed boost.

But those reversal pokes. If we ban dnite we will have the same issue with reversal like we did 4 months ago. Dnite is the one thing that keeps them in check

Not as significantly slow as Machamp is. You're also heavily underestimating Dragonite's bulk as it's something that actually lives these powerful Ice Beams/Ice Punches compared to the other Dragons, so you'll get an extra hit in on your "counter", which by the way, usually responds to Dragonite rather than the other way around. 

 

40 Swampert Ice Beam vs. 0/0 Dragonite: 136-160 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

40 Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0/0 Dragonite: 136-160 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

40 Swampert Ice Beam vs. 4/0 Salamence: 159-188 (92.9 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

40 Swampert Ice Beam vs. 0/0  Flygon: 180-212 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

This is an uninvested Dragonite, by the way. 

 

Sure, ExtremeSpeed counters Reversal, but the only two Reversal users that were banworthy as of what I know are Dugtrio and Heracross. For the record Heracross, or the other Fighting types that Keith mentioned for that matter, also do things beyond Reversal; Dragonite can't switch in on these things and say GG, it only picks ONE of it's sets off. My point here is that Dragonite is not that significant in countering all these Fighting types  -- just Reversal, and only because of ExtremeSpeed, which....any Pokemon with priority can do. It depends; it may or may not be considered uncommon, since this is still a testing meta. 

 

Choice Band Heracross Megahorn or Low Kick vs. 60/0 Dragonite: 85-101 (48.8 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Choice Band Blaziken Superpower vs. 60/0 Dragonite: 83-98 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Focus Punch vs. 60/0 Dragonite: 135-159 (77.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO   

 

Also gets Ice Punch. Noting that despite having the elemental Punches, the loss in ability to reliably hit a Ghost without Shadow Ball is a nerf in a sense. 

 

Dragonite is better with a CB set than Gyarados is, but Gyarados benefits from Rain and has a really dangerous DD set, it's main STAB flinches, and Crunch deals with an otherwise sufficient check/counter in the form of Slowbro. Then again, it's dealt with easier with counters that ThinkNice mentioned such as Vaporeon (although you'll probably need HP Electric or something because Taunt is a pain) and Porygon2. 

 

Also, when we talk about Reversal, I suppose we're assume the whole "Substitute or Endure + Swords Dance + 2 Attacks" variant? Or is it Sub + 3 Attacks with Reversal? In any case, just bring something that resists Rock or Bug. Although Skarm is semi-irrelevant because of Magneton support Reversal Heracross is usually fodder for it. Then there's Arcanine, which I talked with ThinkNice with a while back. With Intimidate and Morning Sun, and ExtremeSpeed, it fares against Reversal users reliably, and is also a decent Metagross check. Reversal and Crunch are also big buffs on offensive Arcanines, so it'd be nice to see how this thing works although it wasn't all that good beforehand. We also discussed Defensive Gyarados, which, like Skarmory but doesn't get trapped, can phaze Heracross out with Roar, although it's offense makes it a current main suspect. I think there was also a small text regarding priority thrown at you in another thread, I can't say I'm sure. 

 

People need to calm down with the whole "Oh if Dragonite is gone Heracross will be gone and this and that will be gone" thing, too. This update has been a severe blow to stall, and there's now a much thicker variety of attacking capability in every nook and cranny. People are talking as if removing most of the major and broken offense would shift this meta back to the way to "hurr durr OP stall meta", especially when we're kinda testing it for future purposes. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[Gunthug]

You guys do realize that "slippery slope" is NOT a good argument for a tiering thread, right?

 

Also, this is a thread about testing pokemmo pokemon with the gen 4 moves in place - once again, probably not the best place for a discussion about the current PokeMMO meta

[Excelimpulse]

Not as significantly slow as Machamp is. You're also heavily underestimating Dragonite's bulk as it's something that actually lives these powerful Ice Beams/Ice Punches compared to the other Dragons, so you'll get an extra hit in on your "counter", which by the way, usually responds to Dragonite rather than the other way around.

40 Swampert Ice Beam vs. 0/0 Dragonite: 136-160 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
40 Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0/0 Dragonite: 136-160 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
40 Swampert Ice Beam vs. 4/0 Salamence: 159-188 (92.9 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
40 Swampert Ice Beam vs. 0/0 Flygon: 180-212 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is an uninvested Dragonite, by the way.

Sure, ExtremeSpeed counters Reversal, but the only two Reversal users that were banworthy as of what I know are Dugtrio and Heracross. For the record Heracross, or the other Fighting types that Keith mentioned for that matter, also do things beyond Reversal; Dragonite can't switch in on these things and say GG, it only picks ONE of it's sets off. My point here is that Dragonite is not that significant in countering all these Fighting types -- just Reversal, and only because of ExtremeSpeed, which....any Pokemon with priority can do. It depends; it may or may not be considered uncommon, since this is still a testing meta.

Choice Band Heracross Megahorn or Low Kick vs. 60/0 Dragonite: 85-101 (48.8 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
Choice Band Blaziken Superpower vs. 60/0 Dragonite: 83-98 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Focus Punch vs. 60/0 Dragonite: 135-159 (77.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also gets Ice Punch. Noting that despite having the elemental Punches, the loss in ability to reliably hit a Ghost without Shadow Ball is a nerf in a sense.

Dragonite is better with a CB set than Gyarados is, but Gyarados benefits from Rain and has a really dangerous DD set, it's main STAB flinches, and Crunch deals with an otherwise sufficient check/counter in the form of Slowbro. Then again, it's dealt with easier with counters that ThinkNice mentioned such as Vaporeon (although you'll probably need HP Electric or something because Taunt is a pain) and Porygon2.

Also, when we talk about Reversal, I suppose we're assume the whole "Substitute or Endure + Swords Dance + 2 Attacks" variant? Or is it Sub + 3 Attacks with Reversal? In any case, just bring something that resists Rock or Bug. Although Skarm is semi-irrelevant because of Magneton support Reversal Heracross is usually fodder for it. Then there's Arcanine, which I talked with ThinkNice with a while back. With Intimidate and Morning Sun, and ExtremeSpeed, it fares against Reversal users reliably, and is also a decent Metagross check. Reversal and Crunch are also big buffs on offensive Arcanines, so it'd be nice to see how this thing works although it wasn't all that good beforehand. We also discussed Defensive Gyarados, which, like Skarmory but doesn't get trapped, can phaze Heracross out with Roar, although it's offense makes it a current main suspect. I think there was also a small text regarding priority thrown at you in another thread, I can't say I'm sure.

People need to calm down with the whole "Oh if Dragonite is gone Heracross will be gone and this and that will be gone" thing, too. This update has been a severe blow to stall, and there's now a much thicker variety of attacking capability in every nook and cranny. People are talking as if removing most of the major and broken offense would shift this meta back to the way to "hurr durr OP stall meta", especially when we're kinda testing it for future purposes.

I get all that. I run bulk to take the ice beams. I get that. But how many times are you gonna be switching dnite in freely? Basically when you somehow out run the poke that just got done killing one of yours. That leaves snorlax and basically metagross. And the worst part about that is your forced to super power and firevlast or your at risk of getting para haxed or exploded on or even ice punched.

I don't under estimate dnite. I think it's gonna be a force to deal with it. But is it dealavke with? I think so. Way to many pokes got the punches and force it to run and also gengar can take advantage of cb dbite with sub disable.

The thing I do laugh at is dnites speed. It's not fast at all and it's forced to run the cb set. Dd dnite still risks letting checks come in and ice beam that don't finish it off and then have an opponent bring their dnite or whatever poke that can outrun or take the hit to finish it off.

People can argue oh you took out two pokes op. But that's usually the only sweeper on that team and then they are hindered. Dnite dd set is crippled the speed on dnite has always been slow.

And to the last thing you brought up about reversal. With heracross blaziken and medicham in and dnite out that's what it will come to. Endure and then rev or sub but it doesn't matter because the other check to it is gone too (ttar).

Me personally I would rather out think my opponent then just let him endure rev and sweep.

People are freaking out about the domino effect because it happened before.

[Gunthug]

 And the worst part about that is your forced to super power and firevlast or your at risk of getting para haxed or exploded on or even ice punched.

 

Lol and you were saying OTHER people need to learn how to predict

People can argue oh you took out two pokes op. But that's usually the only sweeper on that team and then they are hindered.

 

Dnite is the only sweeper on most teams? Wtf meta have you been watching?

People are freaking out about the domino effect because it happened before.

 

Let's call it what it is: The slippery slope argument. Which, btw, is a logical fallacy. Yeah I've used it before, everyone has. But it's only appropriate when you know for sure what the future holds - and we don't. The meta is DIFFERENT than it was a few months ago when a couple bans triggered a slippery slope of bans. How the hell do you know the same thing will happen? You don't, you just like running your mouth shouting 'DOMINO EFFECT DOMINO EFFECT'

 

Well, shut up for a few weeks and we'll sit back and see. I honestly don't even think dnite is banworthy, I think it's healthy for the meta. But I also know that you're arguments are shit and you need to acknowledge that other people can be right sometimes. I've never once seen you change your views the entire time you've been spewing on these forums, and that's a real problem

 

Also, sry for derailing your thread, think

[Excelimpulse]

And the worst part about that is your forced to super power and firevlast or your at risk of getting para haxed or exploded on or even ice punched.

Lol and you were saying OTHER people need to learn how to predict
People can argue oh you took out two pokes op. But that's usually the only sweeper on that team and then they are hindered.

Dnite is the only sweeper on most teams? Wtf meta have you been watching?

People are freaking out about the domino effect because it happened before.

Let's call it what it is: The slippery slope argument. Which, btw, is a logical fallacy. Yeah I've used it before, everyone has. But it's only appropriate when you know for sure what the future holds - and we don't. The meta is DIFFERENT than it was a few months ago when a couple bans triggered a slippery slope of bans. How the hell do you know the same thing will happen? You don't, you just like running your mouth shouting 'DOMINO EFFECT DOMINO EFFECT'

Well, shut up for a few weeks and we'll sit back and see. I honestly don't even think dnite is banworthy, I think it's healthy for the meta. But I also know that you're arguments are shit and you need to acknowledge that other people can be right sometimes. I've never once seen you change your views the entire time you've been spewing on these forums, and that's a real problem

Also, sry for derailing your thread, think

I've never seen you either acknowledge I was right at all either. All you do is bash me and I get a warning and you don't. I didn't say dnite is the only sweeper on most teams. I ment your only going to see usually 1 dd sweeper.

I think dnite is also healthy. I agree with the ttar ban to an extent. Which I was against in the beginning . Edited January 21, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[Gunthug]

I've never seen you either acknowledge I was right at all either. All you do is bash me and I get a warning and you don't. I didn't say dnite is the only sweeper on most teams. I ment your only going to see usually 1 dd sweeper.

I think dnite is also healthy. I agree with the ttar ban to an extent. Which I was against in the beginning .

When you make nice respectful posts like this I have no problem with you, and I'm glad you agree with the ttar ban, but all I see is you jumping into non-ttar discussion threads and bringing up the ttar ban. It seems like your only reasoning for not having wanted Ttar gone is you think it'll start the domino effect of future bans - I'm telling you, don't be so sure. I think we'll find a nice healthy balance here pretty soon - we've got a lot of testing left to do though. 

[Excelimpulse]

When you make nice respectful posts like this I have no problem with you, and I'm glad you agree with the ttar ban, but all I see is you jumping into non-ttar discussion threads and bringing up the ttar ban. It seems like your only reasoning for not having wanted Ttar gone is you think it'll start the domino effect of future bans - I'm telling you, don't be so sure. I think we'll find a nice healthy balance here pretty soon - we've got a lot of testing left to do though.

I agree with you a lot of testing. The only reason I was against ttar was because mence got booted wityin a day and ttar within a week before we even had a chance to adapt.

Like what you said, alot of testing needs done. I just don't like the act of instant ban because of only one tournament or 1 day on a showdown simulator.

That's the only reason I was against it. Ttar hits like a truck we all know that but imo I find it hard to bring in. There's way to much speed And pokes that keep it from coming in. But when it does it's very hard to stop. So that's why I see where everyone is coming from and to me its a toss up.

But this isn't about ttar or mence. Dnite I think is healthy and gyardos. There are a lot of pokes that I think can stop them and yet have been developed for our meta.

DefenSive gyardos I think will play a huge roll In our meta. But how many people actually have one. I do but I made it 3 months ago but I really don't think a lot of pokes have been developed yet.

And that's why I agree that a lot of testing needs to be done. Like a month from now if people are constantly getting swept by dnite guardos then I think that's when it should be discussed.

To many people jump to what can be op offensovly and forget about the new pokes that can go defensively.

[Noad]

As ThinkNice has said earlier in the thread:

 

M8, its a test. 4th gen moves (including SR) have been confirmed to happen eventually(tm) by Darkshade. This is just something we do alongside playing the game. (as making teams on Showdown doesnt take much effort).

 

So let's put down the boxing gloves and keep this thread on topic and not derail it. This thread is to discuss tests for the potential future of the competitive scene if certain changes are to be made. If you think other Pokemon are too strong for the current meta then go and make a discussion for it. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by Noad
Edited out mis-worded sentence

[Sacky]

i dont think the "if we ban that shit..this other shit gonna die" is a good argument whit this..a new metagame

the pokemmo metagame is just a different thing than pokemon is..and now..even more than before

there is so many phy and sp sweepers now...even a crawdawnt can kill a team whit the op's nite, slowbro and friends




we need to test nite and gyarados just for the OP offensive, and we need to see the current meta in tournaments 

[lVlusay]

The faster we ban these two, the better it will be. Dragonite is self explanatory, "it's too strong" as we refer to it. Hits too hard, too bulky, doesn't even need much speed with espeed. When Dnite wrecks aerodactyl with espeed that it resists, not even stab, there is a huge problem... Gyarados with that waterfall became too strong as well. Physical walls can't take those +1 waterfalls. Neither healing nor status works with taunt.

[Sacky]

The faster we ban these two, the better it will be. Dragonite is self explanatory, "it's too strong" as we refer to it. Hits too hard, too bulky, doesn't even need much speed with espeed. When Dnite wrecks aerodactyl with espeed that it resists, not even stab, there is a huge problem... Gyarados with that waterfall became too strong as well. Physical walls can't take those +1 waterfalls. Neither healing nor status works with taunt.

yea..the 2 r too strong..but if gyara run taunt he lose crunch..i think the full sweep crunch, eq, waterfall, DD is the broken one 

[Robofiend]

yea..the 2 r too strong..but if gyara run taunt he lose crunch..i think the full sweep crunch, eq, waterfall, DD is the broken one 

 

Taunt/Crunch/DD/Waterfall is pretty scary too. What do you even need Quake for when Waterfall already does 120 base (factoring stab) coming off a truly dragon-level attack stat? I'd sooner run Thunder to blast Skarms out of the air than waste a slot on EQ.

[Barrage]

[BurntZebra]

252 hp/252 def breloom is a pretty rad counter to gyarados, unless special attacker gyarados with hp flying, ohkos gyarados with thunderpunch with no attack investment

4 Atk Breloom ThunderPunch vs. 56 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 172-204 (97.1 - 115.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 45-54 (26.9 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

>protect/thunderpunch/superpower/spore max hp/def breloom

[Senile]

252 hp/252 def breloom is a pretty rad counter to gyarados, unless special attacker gyarados with hp flying, ohkos gyarados with thunderpunch with no attack investment

4 Atk Breloom ThunderPunch vs. 56 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 172-204 (97.1 - 115.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 45-54 (26.9 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

>protect/thunderpunch/superpower/spore max hp/def breloom

this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of, but I can't argue against it.

[Barrage]

this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of, but I can't argue against it.

It's amazing.

[codylramey]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-204860172

 

Lucky crit ftw \O/

 

Edit: JJ this match doesnt count. Apparently outrage was banned. Whoops.

Edited January 23, 2015 by codylramey

[DoubleJ]

Yup. You're a haxer and a cheater.

[Kiliminati]

this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of, but I can't argue against it.

Top kek.

[ThinkNice]

Taunt/Crunch/DD/Waterfall is pretty scary too. What do you even need Quake for when Waterfall already does 120 base (factoring stab) coming off a truly dragon-level attack stat? I'd sooner run Thunder to blast Skarms out of the air than waste a slot on EQ.

Metagross

[YagamiNoir]

Metagross

+1 Gyarados Earthquake vs 252/4 Metagross: 146-172 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 Gyarados Waterfall or +0 Gyarados Waterfall in rain vs. 252/4 Metagross : 87-103 (46.5 - 55%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

+1 Gyarados Waterfall in rain vs. 252/4 Metagross: 130-154 (69.5 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

It has Thunderpunch to OHKO Gyarados with, but it's not like Earthquake is that significant, considering it only OHKOes Metagross that lack investment, and in that Waterfall manages to 2HKO and can flinch anyways. 

[codylramey]

I think both are viable options. It just depends on what you have on ur team to support gyara.

[Sacky]

Taunt/Crunch/DD/Waterfall is pretty scary too. What do you even need Quake for when Waterfall already does 120 base (factoring stab) coming off a truly dragon-level attack stat? I'd sooner run Thunder to blast Skarms out of the air than waste a slot on EQ.

hp electric vaporeon

[Excelimpulse]

I'm not going to lie I was playing the other day with the gyardos dd crunch waterfall eq. And it got shut down by blissey. All it did was twave me and para hax took effect to where it could just seismic toss me.

So on that note I think we need to think about new defensive pokes like the breloom that will start to be seen more common. It's so easy to jump on to ban everything that hits hard right away because that's what evevryone wants. The defensive pokes don't get made till after we find out what needs to be more used like that breloom.

It might seem idiotic right now but that set has been proven just not in our community.

Let the metagamr adjust.

[lVlusay]

It's kind of ridiculous that we need to talk about defensive breloom or hp electric vaporeon to counter gyarados. Let's look at a possible game scenario. Your opponent brings gyarados on a swampert, vaporeon, heracross or many more things that gyarados can come in to. What are the possible switches? Almost none...You cannot switch on almost any physical wall. Switch to Skarmory, you get trapped by magneton, taunted or just receive huge damage from waterfall. Same goes for forretress. All you can do is explode and hope that the opponent doesn't switch. Same for weezing, try to will o wisp, either miss, lum berry, taunt whatever...If you bring blissey (as excel suggested) or snorlax, good luck taking those waterfalls. And lum berry always saves it if blissey uses twave. Can't switch into ghosts, ground types, rock types, normal types, electric types, fire types, water types, dark types or should I just say almost nothing. Dragonite might work, but Dnite is a problem by itself. You say to get hp electric on vaporeon, like its so easy to do...and even if everyone does, what vaporeon has to give up? surf, ice beam, wish, protect? No pokemon should force the opposing team to run some weird movesets, hidden powers or pokemon to counter it or else getting easily swept. It's all simple. Gyarados obviously needs to get banned as soon as possible because it is clearly broken.