[Discussion] Salamence [Remains in Ubers]

[lVlusay]

Hi everyone.

 

Here I want to discuss Salamence and whether it was a good decision to ban it so quickly. I will consider two possible sets for it: one being choice band and the other dragon dance.

 

1) Choice Band Salamence. Now, how is it different than Dragonite? It does have a better speed, and intimidate, but its usual counters: Vaporeon, Swampert, Slowbro, Lapras do not depend on speed to kill it anyways. Also if you switch any of those on a dragon claw, you can switch into a steel right after that because choice band locks it into a move, or you ko it with ice beam right away (which you can't do with Dragonite). Dragonite is bulkier allowing it to usually survive a beam and with firepunch, extreme speed and superpower, Dragonite has a muuuch better moveset.  So while mence is banned and Dnite is not, my question is: where is consistency?

 

2) Dragon Dance Salamence: My arguments will be very similar to the previous ones. So if it uses dragon dance, you can easily switch into the bulky waters, take 1 hit and ohko it right away (which you often cannot do with Dnite). The bulky waters counter the dragon dance much easier than they counter Gyarados, for which they need hp electric (rare and expensive). For Salamence, Ice beam is enough and they all learn it easily.

 

Result and Suggestion: The CB Salamence set is weaker that CB Dragonite and DD Mence is weaker than Gyarados. If you don't think it's weaker it's okay, but it is certainly not stronger. My advice is to have some consistency. If you banned it, then ban Dnite and Gyarados as well. But my suggestion would be to bring it back because it will make the meta more balanced. Salamence can kill a slower dnite or switch into it's moves other than dragon claw. It can also be another check to gyarados. If we have all three of them, it will be more balanced. Discuss.

Edited February 11, 2015 by lVlusay

[DestructX]

better example than gyarados would've been dd dragonite with tbolt

[flavajabari]

pls dragonite is alrdy overpowered, this is just worse, you're underestimating intimidate

[Toast]

saying "you can switch and then kill it" (basically) isn't really a reason to explain why Salamence should be unbanned. :x

[DaftCoolio]

saying "you can switch and then kill it" (basically) isn't really a reason to explain why Salamence should be unbanned. :x

 

i dont think u get it, u can just switch in and kill it so we can unban it

[lVlusay]

What I meant is that there are tons of switch ins into it, if not tons, then at least no less than onto Dnite and Gyarados. If you have Salamence (with intimidate as you said) in the game, countering those two will be easier as well and they will not be as overpowered anymore.

[DrCraig]

I agree with you that Sala has the same amount of checks and counters as Dnite.(Crunch vs. Tbolt seems equivalent). But Intimidate also gives Sala some more room to come in, more than Dnite. Bulky Sala with Intimidate could be a menacing with a little more opportunity to jump in.

[lVlusay]

Agreed, intimidate is strong. But is doesn't have many other things Dnite has. 1) Superpower, meaning it looses vs Ice Beam Blissey 1vs1, as well us so many other stuff it could damage well. 2) Extreme Speed: meaning it cannot revenge kill starmie, jolteon + others. 3) It doesn't have Fire Punch and has to utilize Fire Blast, which is not affected by either CB or DD and even possibly run a naughty nature to do some dmg with it.

[DaftCoolio]

What I meant is that there are tons of switch ins into it

 

those switch ins get 2hko'd

[lVlusay]

How do they get 2 ohko'd?  Dnite has 134atk, Mence has 135atk. I don't see how things survive Dnite and not Mence (which is also more predictable due to the lesser moveset).

[DaftCoolio]

i never said dnite doesnt 2hko them as well, tbh they should both be banned

[DrCraig]

i never said dnite doesnt 2hko them as well, tbh they should both be banned

[lVlusay]

Hehe, I complain about Dnite all the time myself and even more about Gyarados. That's why most of all I call for consistency of decisions. But I also realize that if we ban those 2, then the reversal pokemons and dugtrio will be just too strong and probably have to be banned as well. I don't want that.

 

Look at it this way. If Salamence is back, that's another check to Gyarados, so it will feel less overpowered. Also, with intimidate it can switch into any of the Dnites moves (Superpower, Fire Punch, Espeed) other than DClaw. That helps a little as well. At least it will be more balanced.

Edited February 11, 2015 by lVlusay

[Gunthug]

3) It doesn't have Fire Punch and has to utilize Fire Blast, which is not affected by either CB or DD and even possibly run a naughty nature to do some dmg with it.

Er, fire blast > fire punch, even on dnite imo. And even with a -attacking nature like adamant. Skarm and fort take far more damage from it.

Also, I don't know why you didn't list mixmence as a viable set. People will be so worried about the two sets you DID list that mixmence could absolutely destroy late game.

Also I'm on my phone so could someone run a calc of CB brick break v bliss? Does it 1hko?

Regardless, stop worrying so much about how similar mence is to dnite. That means nothing in a teiring discussion. If you want mence unbanned, argue that it doesn't fit the definition of uber. Good luck.

[DaftCoolio]

Also I'm on my phone so could someone run a calc of CB brick break v bliss? Does it 1hko?
 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 502-592 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[Gunthug]

252+ Atk Choice Band Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 502-592 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

She's a real tough cookie isn't she

[lVlusay]

1) Hmm, CB Fire punch always does more than Fire Blast (which can also miss and has low pp).

 

2) I compare Dnite and Salamence because the former one is not less scary, but one is banned and the other isn't. Repeating: consistency.

 

3) Mix Mence is least to worry about. With access to tbolt, ice beam and other moves, Dnite gets a better mix moveset anyways.

 

4) You can worry about the definitions and all the bureaucracy, I worry about the meta and post my opinion supported by arguments here.

Edited February 11, 2015 by lVlusay

[Shaniqualela]

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0- SpA Dragonite Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 206-244 (61.6 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fire punch is only better against 252/252+ spdef skarmory which nobody uses.
They either use 252/252+ def with all the choice banders
Or 252/252 spdef with +def nature

Giving up ALL your def investment defeats the purpose of even using skarmory, so fire blast is much better than fire punch even with no evs and a hindering nature

[DaftCoolio]

2) I compare Dnite and Salamence because the former one is not less scary, but one is banned and the other isn't. Repeating: consistency.

 

this is a discussion about salamence not dragonite or consistency 

[DrCraig]

this is a discussion about salamence not dragonite or consistency 

Since when do you care lol

 

Comparing Dnite to Mence is valid, they're similiar but one is in the tier and one isn't. Its his thread lol

[lVlusay]

Please...don't provide wrong statistics and information here.

 

Many comp players, including me use sp.def skarmory and forretress. And in both cases CB fire punch does more damage by a decent amount. If you want to use all def, it's up to you, but then good luck spiking up vaporeon, swampert, blissey and even gengar for forretress. For me, that defeats the purpose of using skarm or fore if I can't set up on those. It's a matter of preference on what you want to spike up.

[Gunthug]

1) Hmm, CB Fire punch always does more than Fire Blast (which can also miss and has low pp).

 

2) I compare Dnite and Salamence because the former one is not less scary, but one is banned and the other isn't. Repeating: consistency.

 

3) Mix Mence is least to worry about. With access to tbolt, ice beam and other moves, Dnite gets a better mix moveset anyways.

 

4) You can worry about the definitions and all the bureaucracy, I worry about the meta and post my opinion supported by arguments here.

Well as valuable as your opinion is (absolutely no sarcasm here, I'm serious), there's a system in place. If you want mence unbanned, you have to convince the council and the community that Mence isn't uber. Dnite has absolutely nothing to do with whether mence is uber or not. If you think dnite/gyara should be banned, then I think you shoulda made a thread about them. You'd probably get a lot of support, tbh

 

Also, I think it's hilarious that you said Mence can switch in on any of Dnite's attacks that aren't Dclaw. Oh, so it can switch in on any of its attacks except for it's most spammable one?

[DaftCoolio]

Please...don't provide wrong statistics and information here.

 

Many comp players, including me use sp.def skarmory and forretress. And in both cases CB fire punch does more damage by a decent amount. If you want to use all def, it's up to you, but then good luck spiking up vaporeon, swampert, blissey and even gengar for forretress. For me, that defeats the purpose of using skarm or fore if I can't set up on those. It's a matter of preference on what you want to spike up.

no one cares wot u run, some people run max def skarm and in that case fire blast is better

 

 

Dnite has absolutely nothing to do with whether mence is uber or not. 

get rekt craig

[OldKeith]

No, unbanning that garbage should not be the way.

 

I would like to see, on the other hand:

 

[Discussion]Dragonite

[Discussion]Slowbro

[Discussion]Metagross

[Discussion]Snorlax

 

Someone please do them, or I will in the week-end.

[lVlusay]

Gunthug, I still don't understand why I cannot compare this two or three very similar pokemons. Please elaborate if that really bothers you.

 

Second of all, in terms of me saying mence can switch into any dnite moves except dcaw, I think you don't understand the context... So imagine a duel situation, you have your skarmory, forretress, metagross, magneton out on someone's Dnite, are you telling me you cannot switch on Mence? Of course the person might predict, but that's another story. Now imagine Dnite is already locked in fire punch, Extreme Speed, are you telling me you cannot switch on Salamence? Please read my words again, I said it helps a little.