[Discussion] Salamence [Remains in Ubers]

[Quint]

No, unbanning that garbage should not be the way.

 

I would like to see, on the other hand:

 

[Discussion]Dragonite

[Discussion]Slowbro

[Discussion]Metagross

[Discussion]Snorlax

[Discussion]Gengar

 

Someone please do them, or I will in the week-end.

 

:rolleyes:

[lVlusay]

Daft Coolio that's my point, you can run whatever you want, but he told me that nobody runs a sp.def skarm and there is no point of running it. It is not true, so I gave him my answer. Plus he provided some calcs, like it proved something. The fact that fire blast does more to all def skarm/fore and fire punch does more to all sp.def skarm/fore was already obvious.

[Robofiend]

Sorry but this just isn't going to happen and it should be obvious why:

 

1. The community doesn't agree with you

2. No one on the OU Tiering Council agrees with you (we unanimously voted to ban Salamence with the onset of this update)

 

Salamence is a faster Dragonite with a better ability, better Special Attack and the same attack stat. I've heard a lot of players complain about Dragonite recently that Dragon Spam is hard to counter and Dragonite should go, so why would we ever add something that is even more powerful back into the game? 

 

If we were to allow Salamence back into OU it wouldn't actually fix the fact that Dragonite and Gyarados are spooky and hard to counter, it would just add another thing that is spooky and hard to counter into the metagame, which is just dumb. You don't fix the broken parts of a game by adding more broken parts.

 

As far as "consistency" goes, we haven't banned Dragonite or Gyarados (who are supposedly "better" than Salamance) because no one has started discussion threads on them. Generally the TC wants to see players contributing to a discussion before making a decision on OU tiering- quick bans just piss people off and are only used when it seems super obvious that something is broken (i.e. Tyranitar, Salamence with the Phys/Special split).

 

Lastly, a lot of this is just pointless to debate. Obviously Salamence has checks & counters but the existence of those counters doesn't magically make Salamence non-Uber. Tyranitar has counters (Defensive Hitmontop, Swampert (sometimes) Breloom, etc.) but it's still Uber. Why? Because, like Salamence, it effortlessly kills a huge number of common pokemon in the OU metagame (Dragon Claw by itself tears through almost everything).

 

TL;DR Salamence is the best offensive pokemon in PokeMMO when it has access to Physical Dragon Claw and there's almost no way it's going to see the light of OU again for a long time.

[lVlusay]

Agreed with most of the stuff. That's what I said in the first place: if Dnite gets banned as well, then I am happy, that would be fair and consistent. The reason I made this discussion is because Salamence that as you said "effortlessly kills a huge number of common pokemon in OU" is banned, but weeks go by and it's counterpart that does the same is not.

 

Just want to add something, the community and Tiering Council not agreeing me doesn't bother me. The best choice is not always the most popular one. If everyone agreed on everything, there would be no discussion.

Edited February 11, 2015 by lVlusay

[Gunthug]

Agreed with most of the stuff. That's what I said in the first place: if Dnite gets banned as well them, then I am happy, that would be fair and consistent. The reason I made this discussion is because weeks go by and I don't see Dnite being banned, while the other counterpart was gone long ago.

 

Just want to add something, the community and Tiering Council not agreeing me doesn't bother me. The best choice is not always the most popular. If everyone agreed on everything, there would be no discussion.

So let me get this straight. You wanted dnite banned, so instead of making a Dnite thread, you made a salamence thread? Are you high, son?

 

edit:

 

 

 

 

Second of all, in terms of me saying mence can switch into any dnite moves except dcaw, I think you don't understand the context... So imagine a duel situation, you have your skarmory, forretress, metagross, magneton out on someone's Dnite, are you telling me you cannot switch on Mence? Of course the person might predict, but that's another story. Now imagine Dnite is already locked in fire punch, Extreme Speed, are you telling me you cannot switch on Salamence? Please read my words again, I said it helps a little.

 

Lol so in other words, what you MEANT to say was that in very specific circumstances, mence can switch in on anything dnite has? That's odd, because this is what I read:

 

Also, with intimidate it can switch into any of the Dnites moves (Superpower, Fire Punch, Espeed) other than DClaw

 

is this xcel on another account?

Edited February 11, 2015 by Gunthug

[DrCraig]

No, unbanning that garbage should not be the way.

 

I would like to see, on the other hand:

 

[Discussion]Dragonite

[Discussion]Slowbro

[Discussion]Metagross

[Discussion]Snorlax

 

Someone please do them, or I will in the week-end.

I mean if you really want me to Keith

[lVlusay]

Gunthug, you have no idea what you are talking about. If you can't read that's your problem, but that annoys me so please stop reformulating my statements. If you READ again, I said I want consistency of decisions. In other words (for very slow people) if they banned Mence, they should ban Dnite as well. Or if they don't plan to ban the later, then let's try to work something out. Robo just replied that they might.

 

For your second question, you read everything correctly, which is an improvement, but you didn't understand it, which is sad. Circumstances is exactly what I meant and as I said (repeating now) it makes it a little easier. Never said it's a counter. I will use less complicated phrases for you next time.

 

And thirdly, Xcel is my friend, but that's non of your business, son.

Edited February 11, 2015 by lVlusay

[Gunthug]

Gunthug, you have no idea what you are talking about. If you can't read that's your problem, but that annoys me so please stop reformulating my statements. If you READ again, I said I want consistency of decisions. In other words (for very slow people) if they banned Mence, they should ban Dnite as well. Or if they don't plan to ban the later, then let's try to work something out. Robo just replied that they might.

 

For your second question, you read everything correctly, which is an improvement, but you didn't understand it, which is sad. Circumstances is exactly what I meant and as I said (repeating now) it makes it a little easier. Never said it's a counter. I will use less complicated phrases for you next time.

 

And thirdly, Xcel is my friend, but that's non of your business, son.

I asked if this was xcel because xcel also hates quoting people. And talks out of his ass a lot

 

I can see I made you upset, because your rambling keeps getting more and more ridiculous. Let's take a step back and take a deep breath, alright?

 

Ok, back? Alright, check this out:

 

IF YOU WANTED DNITE TO BE BANNED, "CONSISTENT" WITH THE SALAMENCE BAN, THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE MADE A THREAD ABOUT DRAGONITE, NOT SALAMENCE.

 

It makes absolutely no fucking sense to say "hmm, I think mence and dnite are similar, and mence is banned. So let's bring mence back since dnite isn't banned!" No one has even made a god damn thread about dnite, and you just write off the fact that it's not being banned?

 

Nevermind the fact that pokemon teiring decisions are made on an individual basis; that is, each pokemon is evaluated one at a time, in their own thread. So, as I've said 6 times now (but I'll repeat again, for those who are a little slow): If you want salamence unbanned, you have to argue why salamence doesn't meet the uber criteria. Guess what? Comparing it to dnite won't get you there, so either try again, made a dnite thread, or sit down and shut up

 

edit:

For your second question, you read everything correctly, which is an improvement, but you didn't understand it, which is sad. Circumstances is exactly what I meant and as I said (repeating now) it makes it a little easier. Never said it's a counter. I will use less complicated phrases for you next time.

 

So when you say "it makes it a little easier," I'm supposed to somehow know that what you MEANT to say was "Second of all, in terms of me saying mence can switch into any dnite moves except dcaw, I think you don't understand the context... So imagine a duel situation, you have your skarmory, forretress, metagross, magneton out on someone's Dnite, are you telling me you cannot switch on Mence? Of course the person might predict, but that's another story. Now imagine Dnite is already locked in fire punch, Extreme Speed, are you telling me you cannot switch on Salamence? Please read my words again, I said it helps a little."

 

Please, in the future, don't post half of a fucking statement, backtrack and post 2 paragraphs about it, then expect me to have known what you meant

Edited February 11, 2015 by Gunthug

[DrCraig]

An example of how people overanaylze eachother's sentences and generalize them to create meaningless arguments. C'mon man.

[Gunthug]

An example of how people overanaylze eachother's sentences and generalize them to create meaningless arguments. C'mon man.

How can you overanalyze and generalize something at the same time?

 

edit: look I can do this too:

 

An example of how people string together long words with no connection in attempt to create the facade of a moral high ground

Edited February 11, 2015 by Gunthug

[DrCraig]

How can you overanalyze and generalize something at the same time?

Taking small points and blowing them out of proportion

There we go

Edit:
Here Gunt if you want to start being an ass this is a definition of generalize

"make general or broad statement by inferring from specific cases."

You took his 'specific case' and applied it to everything Edited February 11, 2015 by DrCraig

[lVlusay]

Upset is a strong word, annoying as I mentioned before, but again you don't like to read. If something will get me upset in life, it will certainly not be a "tough guy" behind the screen arguing with me on the forum of an online game.

 

I make a thread about whatever I want and discuss whatever I want in it. Why do you keep repeating what I should do? If you noticed, after this conversation, other people decided to make their threads on whatever pokemons, so it wasn't useless.

[Gunthug]

Upset is a strong word, annoying as I mentioned before, but again you don't like to read. If something will get me upset in life, it will certainly not be a "tough guy" behind the screen arguing with me on the forum of an online game.

 

I make a thread about whatever I want and discuss whatever I want in it. Why do you keep repeating what I should do? If you noticed, after this conversation, other people decided to make their threads on whatever pokemons, so it wasn't useless.

Lol I love how anyone who strongly defends their stance becomes a "tough guy" behind a screen. Maybe if you had a better comeback, that embarrasing tidbit coulda been left out of your response

 

You can make a thread about whatever you want, man. You could make a [Discussion: Yanma] thread and argue that since mosquitos carry malaria, it should be banned. I could care less - it's your reputation. What I tried telling you is that, if you want to be taken seriously in teiring discussions, you have to play by the rules. That means argue for or against the ban criteria.

 

Do not mistake others making threads as a sign that yours was productive. In fact, the other threads are popping up to alleviate your own mistake - not making those threads yourself

[Robofiend]

Do not mistake others making threads as a sign that yours was productive. In fact, the other threads are popping up to alleviate your own mistake - not making those threads yourself

 

Mostly this.

 

I make a thread about whatever I want and discuss whatever I want in it. Why do you keep repeating what I should do? If you noticed, after this conversation, other people decided to make their threads on whatever pokemons, so it wasn't useless.

 

If you want to talk about tiering in game you can message me and I'd be happy to talk to you, we're friends. Generally a bad idea to argue with Gunthug because he's a "tough guy" behind the screen he's a lawyer or some shit and generally knows his pokes really well.

[lVlusay]

I don't need comebacks arguing with you because your arguments are not part of he conversation in this thread. You are just off topic. As I said and repeated many times, I make a thread and discuss whatever I want. I don't know what makes you think that I should have made a thread about something else, but keep it to yourself.  

[Artemiseta]

I didn't see anything regarding this point but it was stated in previous threads that bringing a pokemon back into te teir because it checks a pokemon is not a valid reason to do so. (I recall that being about granbul discussion going up to OU and when it was considered bringing it abck down)

 

Second, as others have stated from what ive read it would be more helpful if you made a thread about dragonite instead of bringing Sala back down

 

third, the speed does make a big difference. whereas dnite has to(or at least should) run espeed to hit counters sala is in a  difference speed tier and therefore is not concerned about some o the same pokes that Dnite is (thank god sala doesn't get espeed that would truly be scary) ex of pokes that dnite need espeed for: hidden power ice doom, sceptile jolteon to beat out arcanine. and pick off weakened pokemon in general. but the base 100 speed of sala creates speed ties or allws him to be faster and not have that move locked in but rather contine on its way samming dragon claw or whatever you choose.

[DoubleJ]

Stop fighting ya'll look like doduos.

 

Salamence will not be "unbanned". It sweeps far too easily and has a respectable speed stat to allow it to spam it's overpowered STAB Dragon Claw without much fear. Hit and run tactics make this poke the easiest thing to abuse.

 

Dragonite has been discussed indirectly for too long. It's time we start a thread. Chat has been undoubtedly going on within teams with no direct chat in the forums. I'm tired of hearing people complain at tournaments and seeing people uguu around on the forums about it. Craig, make that thread mate.

 

Metagross is insane strong, but doesn't have the sweeping power that the dragons have. It's primary stab is easily walled, and it's other options can be abused when it becomes locked in. The Agility set is scary, but has holes against balanced teams. I don't think it should be banned, but I'm open to seeing a thread with some nice discussion.

 

Snorlax has so many options it's silly. Although it isn't overly good at any of them. Curse is beat up pretty bad by the many physical options we have and even more so by Disable Gengar. The CB Pursuit set provides a guaranteed kill against our common special sweepers and can spam powerful Return/Body Slam at it's leisure, but beyond that it's slow and can't take many hits. 

 

Slowbro is currently our best defensive wall, and honestly the only one that isn't OHKO'd by a common, or somewhat common move. outside of STAB CB Megahorn from Adamant Heracross that is. 4MSS hurts Slowbro a lot as it has to choose between coverage, stabs, recovery, etc. If you pick a set to beat Gyara/Dragonite then you lose your stab options, if you decide to provide a status move, you likely lose the ability to CM and survive special attacks. So you see where I'm getting it. It has an incredible usage rating right now simply because it's the best, but it isn't without it's faults. Status absolutely destroys it, most notably Toxic. Pairing Slowbro with a Guts user and a Steel-type can help protect against this. 

 

Looking for additional discussion threads and better discussion. We can do this. Thank you Musay for being passionate about the game and also to the commentors here for providing discussion when not being abusive. 

[lVlusay]

DoubleJ and Artemiseta thanks for the analysis, they are very useful and that's what I was looking for.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Noad
Dont double post and keep it polite please.

[Artemiseta]

I post first and he gets the top spot I see how it is LOL (total joke just to be clear)

feel free to pm questions ill happily answer as soon as I see them

 

Art

 

just to comment on what JJ said im with you on the metagross thing 100% steel not that great of attacking type and gets eaten up by our bulky water walls and by skarm ect... though agiity and explosion set can be very scary. Lax seems to be a bit of the same old which if you figure out the set than it can be dealt with bt figuring ot the set easier said than done but lets hear what everyone has to say on the topic. looking for dnite thread and there is a  slowbro thread up now sry that is bit off topic

[Gunthug]

Edit: also vusay, there's a button called "edit" on the bottom right, it's right next to "quote". You can use it to avoid double posting, it's pretty simple. Pm me if you want a step by step walk through 

Edited February 11, 2015 by Noad
Edited out removed content

[lVlusay]

Learning from the best.

[Gunthug]

Here Gunt if you want to start being an ass this is a definition of generalize

"make general or broad statement by inferring from specific cases."

You took his 'specific case' and applied it to everything

This definition actually strengthens my position. I didn't have to generalize his original statement - it was already a generalization. But hey, I wouldn't wanna trample on your agenda with some reality

 

Getting back on topic, can this topic be deleted? Mence isn't coming back for the foreseeable future

[fredrichnietze]

No, unbanning that garbage should not be the way.

 

I would like to see, on the other hand:

 

[Discussion]Dragonite

[Discussion]Slowbro

[Discussion]Metagross

[Discussion]Snorlax

 

Someone please do them, or I will in the week-end.

looking forward to it, and please do not base the format on this threads. ability + base stats + typing + viable moves + most viable move set/s along with ev spread in op and brief opening argument please.

 

and let him believe whatever he wants. unless he comes back with a crowd of followers, we dont need to have this discussion again because one person refuses to agree with everyone else.

[lVlusay]

Gunthug, at first I was actually enjoying our debate, but when you started editing you comments after I already replied to them, to make yourself look a little less ignorant, the whole thing lost the purpose. If you say something, stay by your words and don't delete them.

 

Second of all, I thought the community here is a bit more mature. I don't understand how many times do I need to make my point. I am ALL IN for the Dragonite ban. Please read again, ALL IN. I was arguing for Dragonite and Gyarados ban long before you all woke up. The ONLY REASON I made this thread is because I wasn't seeing any of these two getting banned and haven't seen any discussion on it either. So having assumed that they will not be banned for sure, I started questioning why Salamence, being nor stronger than any of those two, was banned in the first place . Now, I don't care if you think I should have made a Dragonite or Gyarados thread, because I will discuss what I want to discuss. If you want to have a discussion about something else, then please proceed and make your own thread. Thank you!

[Gunthug]

Gunthug, at first I was actually enjoying our debate, but when you started editing you comments after I already replied to them, to make yourself look a little less ignorant, the whole thing lost the purpose. If you say something, stay by your words and don't delete them.

Second of all, I thought the community here is a bit more mature. I don't understand how many times do I need to make my point. I am ALL IN for the Dragonite ban. Please read again, ALL IN. I was arguing for Dragonite and Gyarados ban long before you all woke up. The ONLY REASON I made this thread is because I wasn't seeing any of these two getting banned and haven't seen any discussion on it either. So having assumed that they will not be banned for sure, I started questioning why Salamence, being nor stronger than any of those two, was banned in the first place . Now, I don't care if you think I should have made a Dragonite or Gyarados thread, because I will discuss what I want to discuss. If you want to have a discussion about something else, then please proceed and make your own thread. Thank you!

Vusay,

If I edited any of my posts, it was to fix spelling errors. I didn't take anything out

And also, it's pretty hypocritical of you to say "if you want to have a discussion about something else, please make your own thread and discuss it there," considering you pretty much only discussed gyara and dnite in this thread that was supposed to be about salamence. Which is why I jumped in immediately and said that if you want mence unbanned, talk about mence, not those other two Edited February 11, 2015 by Gunthug