[UU Discussion] Kangaskhan (remains UU)

[felix]

Abilities: Early Bird

Usable sets:

Choice Band

• Double-edge/Return
• Earthquake / Fake Out
• Fire Punch
• Crunch

Rest

• Rest
• Double-edge
• Fire Punch / Fake Out
• Crunch / Fake Out

Worth to mention moves: Reversal, Endure, Substitute, Focus Punch, Thunderpunch, Ice Punch, Facade, Disable, Body Slam, Rock Slide, Sleep Talk, Swagger, Low Kick, Yawn, Wish

 

I will make some calcs about the cb set, but kanga can easily switch in against some common pokes and take it down, I'm using jolly but I'm unsure about the jolly viability atm, anyone who thinks that jolly isn't viable and think adamant will fit better the current UU tier (if we can call it that), feel free to redo the calcs.

 

While the four moves syndrome and the high prediction required for cb set to work out, not many things can switch in so often into kanga.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scizor: 152-180 (85.8 - 101.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 108-128 (64.6 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 51-61 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 78-92 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

even tho, steelix can do much to kanga:

4 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 60-72 (33.3 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

In a 1v1 situation kanga can put Steelix down, if you are running fire punch only, steelix can work kanga out.

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 58-70 (31.8 - 38.4%) -- 2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The most feared physical can't even handle it:

 

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 90-106 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kangaskhan: 57-67 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- 81.7% chance to 3HKO

 

 

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golem: 84-100 (44.9 - 53.4%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 75-88 (41.6 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

I'm assuming you are doing the right predictions here, but as the battle goes and you saw all your opponents team, kanga can be unstoppable.

 

I think it deserve to be banned to BL

[Kizhaz]

I would say CB Steelix handles it quite well, also the recoil from double-edge hurts a lot assuming CB. Can't think of much else you didn't already mention

 

EDIT: 252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 78-94 (46.7 - 56.2%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Although the best claydol can do is toxic or boom since eq does a measly 30%

Edited February 23, 2015 by Kizhaz

[DoubleJ]

This shouldn't be banned with Machamp and Breloom still in the meta. If those two are gone then this guy can be suspected, but right now I feel there are too many stab fighting moves getting tossed around for this guy to be an S ranked stud.

[felix]

This shouldn't be banned with Machamp and Breloom still in the meta. If those two are gone then this guy can be suspected, but right now I feel there are too many stab fighting moves getting tossed around for this guy to be an S ranked stud.

don't see how they are relevant, they can't switch in against Kangaskhan, so they are pointless in this discussion:

 

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 150-177 (109.4 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 92-110 (51.1 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 150-177 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

and Kangaskhan outspeed both, unless you are going to run some strange 252 hp/+def variant, I don't see how they will scare Kangaskhan.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Cradily may wall the choice band set while it can toxic recover it to death:

 

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Cradily: 58-69 (30 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Cradily: 65-77 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- 25.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 Atk Cradily Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 43-52 (23.8 - 28.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO

 

won't be so successful against the rest set, but the rest set can't do much do it either.

Edited February 23, 2015 by felix

[fredrichnietze]

i spent a few hours doing calcs for this in the last kangas discussion and determined it was not overpowered back then in my opinion. also t punch>fire punch cause no fort and lots of waters/flyings. generally your stab normal move will do more damage then a 2x punch unless resisted and you have EQ for the rock/steels, but there are more pokemon you have to worry about that are weak to electric then that are weak to fire and also not weak to ground.

 

the TL;DR is kangas needs lots of predictions and 2x walls that can wall most of kangas moves can just switch around between them to stop kangas. slowking + scizor for example. or shuck + claydol. the idea is to force kangas to make predictions and punish him when he messes up, and never stay in when you mispredict! there is a lot of wish support and insta healers in UU and you need to take advantage of them.

 

also you should mention the special or physically defensive wall set with either eb rest or wish + protect since that set is more viable in UU atm.

 

also lots and lots of things can check kangas by outspeeding and 1-2hko'ing it.

[DrCraig]

In my opinion the best set to run on Kanga is a bulky adamant rest/firepunch/crunch/return for rest abuse, since the bulk is there. However, despite the bulk I really don't think it has the longevity to keep rinsing and repeating with all the strong offensive threats running around. I'd rather wait to see signs of Kanga doing heavy damage to the tier then play a prediction game right now.

[Robofiend]

ban nothing, leggo hyper offense

[YagamiNoir]

Although it's hard to get one of these and it's getting no love:

 

Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252/252+ Armaldo: 50-59 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 63.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 0/0 Kangaskhan: 62-73 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

[Shaniqualela]

4 Atk Armaldo Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 252-298 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


4 Atk Armaldo Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 252-298 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes

[KingBowser]

I say there should be more testing of UU, before passing judgement on Kangaskhan. Like any poke is going to be scary with CB and gets a super effective hit on every prediction. So lets not be so amaze by those calcs. I see many pokes that can punish Kangaskhan for attempting to CB spam his stab moves. Omastar/Cradily(insta recovery)/Armalado are very nice choices, barring the CB EQ on the first. Locking yourself in eq is pretty terrible with the comeback of dodrio or dual stabbing haunter. Always 2nd guessing your choice, knowing there could be an equal or greater threat. Fully defensive Hitmontop may make a comeback, seeing as granbull is back in the tier. One last note, kanga is revenged by diglett.

-1 252 Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 42-51 (26.7 - 32.4%) -- 55.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

[Robofiend]

I say there should be more testing of UU, before passing judgement on Kangaskhan. Like any poke is going to be scary with CB and gets a super effective hit on every prediction. So lets not be so amaze by those calcs. I see many pokes that can punish Kangaskhan for attempting to CB spam his stab moves. Omastar/Cradily(insta recovery)/Armalado are very nice choices, barring the CB EQ on the first. Locking yourself in eq is pretty terrible with the comeback of dodrio or dual stabbing haunter. Always 2nd guessing your choice, knowing there could be an equal or greater threat. Fully defensive Hitmontop may make a comeback, seeing as granbull is back in the tier. One last note, kanga is revenged by diglett.

-1 252 Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 42-51 (26.7 - 32.4%) -- 55.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Not to mention the fact that Kanga's base 95 attack is pretty weak compared to Tauros's 110 or Granbull's 120 (and they both have intimidate)

[felix]

I say there should be more testing of UU, before passing judgement on Kangaskhan. Like any poke is going to be scary with CB and gets a super effective hit on every prediction. So lets not be so amaze by those calcs. I see many pokes that can punish Kangaskhan for attempting to CB spam his stab moves. Omastar/Cradily(insta recovery)/Armalado are very nice choices, barring the CB EQ on the first. Locking yourself in eq is pretty terrible with the comeback of dodrio or dual stabbing haunter. Always 2nd guessing your choice, knowing there could be an equal or greater threat. Fully defensive Hitmontop may make a comeback, seeing as granbull is back in the tier. One last note, kanga is revenged by diglett.

-1 252 Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 42-51 (26.7 - 32.4%) -- 55.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

as I said, i was making the right predictions on the calcs, you will prob have to scout to predict right, also, calculating 252 HP/252+ def pokes just for it isn't the best way as well (I used it in some calcs, not saying that hitmontop isn't a viable defensive wall).

 

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 63-75 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Hitmontop doesn't have recovery, unless you have wish support, it will be hard for it to switch in a CB Kanga.

 

I'm not against more testing, but for what I saw on some battle that i played with team mates, if you don't have at least two pokes to play around kangaskhan and switch between then to avoid high damage and hit hard the switching in, its hard to play around.

 

Not to mention the fact that Kanga's base 95 attack is pretty weak compared to Tauros's 110 or Granbull's 120 (and they both have intimidate)

Kangaskhan has better bulky than Tauros. 105/80/80 - 75/95/70 (they are ver similar overall imo)

Kangaskhan has better Speed and Bulky Than Granbull 105/x/80/x/80/90 - 90/x/75/x/60/45

 

Tauros and Granbull suffer from their limited movepool, while I picked up two sets and the one i though was more effective to do the calcs, Kangaskhan can have way more moveset to work than any of those two high attack.

 

Also, before the split, Kanga was way more common than Tauros in OU, even tested in UU for a while (with Forretress, Cloyster and without CB) and was a powerhouse even with Granbull around.

 

I think it would be nice if instead of comparing to another viable pokes with high status we could discuss about Kangaskhan, cause I don't see how comparing base atk are relevant to this discussion.

[Robofiend]

I think it would be nice if instead of comparing to another viable pokes with high status we could discuss about Kangaskhan, cause I don't see how comparing base atk are relevant to this discussion.

 

It's easier to compare attack when we're talking about offensive pokes than it is to see how bulk affects it. Kanga's bulk is a huge selling point (as is Early Bird) but to me it seems like that bulk won't help it as much as high attack helps something like Tauros, Dodrio or Hitmonlee, who all have high status and really powerful STABs. Although Kanga has an objectively better movepool, there aren't really many walls to break in UU (except Steelix), making Elemental punch, Crunch and all of Kanga's move options kind of irrelevant when you could just be nuking shit with Hitmonlee or Breloom. Fake Out is a great move, however.

[felix]

It's easier to compare attack when we're talking about offensive pokes than it is to see how bulk affects it. Kanga's bulk is a huge selling point (as is Early Bird) but to me it seems like that bulk won't help it as much as high attack helps something like Tauros, Dodrio or Hitmonlee, who all have high status and really powerful STABs. Although Kanga has an objectively better movepool, there aren't really many walls to break in UU (except Steelix), making Elemental punch, Crunch and all of Kanga's move options kind of irrelevant when you could just be nuking shit with Hitmonlee or Breloom. Fake Out is a great move, however.

i think we will agree to disagree for too long in this kind of discussion. There are some pokes that can be used as wall, like Gligar and shit on Hitmonlee and Breloom, but i don't want to go through this subject, cause its probably too long. Unless discussions have changed and doesn't matter the pokemon strength in a tier but only comparing its strength with another similar pokes in the same tier, this discussion is pointless.

[Tyrone]

The UU Council finds that Kangaskhan currently does not meet the criteria for being banned to BL (OU).

So this means that for now, Kangaskhan will stay in the UU tier.

In the future, when the UU tier has seen some changes, this pokemon may be discussed some more.

 

On that note I'll be locking this thread and putting it in the Competition Archive.