[UU Discussion] Chansey

[fredrichnietze]

hey o/ so im back. worked 12 hours today. did this happen? can i go to sleep?

[Artemiseta]

Once you read post thoughts on chansey here or pm to me notes on meeting should be around soonish

[Noad]

Brief overview on yesterday's meeting about Chansey (not a great amount of new points were raised, it was just summing up previous discussion and coming to a conclusion):

 

Team building could be the issue rather than Chansey being the actual problem:

• Barrage pointed out that a lot of people play very defensively and teams do not have much of an offensive presence. 
• We looked at the teams of the players that were time claused at the last official (both people were stalled out by Chansey) and it was clear that neither player had built their team to tackle Chansey at all. There was little to no offensive pressure on their teams at all. 
• This mindset has always been present in PokeMMO, players have always opted for the defensive teams over the offensive ones. 

 

Usage showed Chansey having high usage in UU:

• https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/53984-pokemmo-official-usage-statistics-and-tier-lists/?p=1065371

 

Predictions of a Chansey free UU meta:

• Umbreon usage will likely rise without Chansey, however it is very likely that Umbreon will become OU by usage if Snorlax and Blissey are permanently banned from the tier.
• Alakazam will most likely become a top tier threat. 

Outcome:

• Both Barrage and Artemiseta agreed to a test ban on Chansey lasting a duration of 6 tournaments, this would not be announced until after the officials this weekend. 

 

We would need the UU council to provide a paragraph summarising the points raised and announcing the test ban. 

[fredrichnietze]

Once you read post thoughts on chansey here or pm to me notes on meeting should be around soonish

90% of this i can't seem to comprehend, but as to the soonish part, i was asleep by this point.

 

 

Brief overview on yesterday's meeting about Chansey (not a great amount of new points were raised, it was just summing up previous discussion and coming to a conclusion):

 

Team building could be the issue rather than Chansey being the actual problem:

• Barrage pointed out that a lot of people play very defensively and teams do not have much of an offensive presence. 
• We looked at the teams of the players that were time claused at the last official (both people were stalled out by Chansey) and it was clear that neither player had built their team to tackle Chansey at all. There was little to no offensive pressure on their teams at all. 
• This mindset has always been present in PokeMMO, players have always opted for the defensive teams over the offensive ones. 

 

Usage showed Chansey having high usage in UU:

• https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/53984-pokemmo-official-usage-statistics-and-tier-lists/?p=1065371

 

Predictions of a Chansey free UU meta:

• Umbreon usage will likely rise without Chansey, however it is very likely that Umbreon will become OU by usage if Snorlax and Blissey are permanently banned from the tier.
• Alakazam will most likely become a top tier threat. 

Outcome:

• Both Barrage and Artemiseta agreed to a test ban on Chansey lasting a duration of 6 tournaments, this would not be announced until after the officials this weekend. 

 

We would need the UU council to provide a paragraph summarising the points raised and announcing the test ban. 

why test ban at all? i mean we know what the meta is like with no chansey as no one used it until recently. we have month of chansey with practically no useage. what the point of a temp ban? 

 

for the time claused people, who cares? if they want to make a team that has nothing to deal with special walls and then stall until they get DQ'd let them? team building has historically never been something we have dealt with for various reasons(see vileplume discussion thread final post). the new time clause mechanics should deal with this problem. until then, let people do stupid things and get DQ'd? waiting seems to just solve this problem. 

 

if the ou council perma bans lax/bliss then we can deal with it. until then what good does speculating on a possibility do? doing something always feels good because you have a sense of accomplishment and something you can look at the is real and quantifiable; but it's not always the right thing to do. we should either ban chansey for support or unhealthiness, or not ban it. the temp ban is just somthing we can show the players "hey we are doing something" but it doesnt get anything done since we know what it'll look like.

[Noad]

90% of this i can't seem to comprehend, but as to the soonish part, i was asleep by this point.

 

 

why test ban at all? i mean we know what the meta is like with no chansey as no one used it until recently. we have month of chansey with practically no useage. what the point of a temp ban? 

 

for the time claused people, who cares? if they want to make a team that has nothing to deal with special walls and then stall until they get DQ'd let them? team building has historically never been something we have dealt with for various reasons(see vileplume discussion thread final post). the new time clause mechanics should deal with this problem. until then, let people do stupid things and get DQ'd? waiting seems to just solve this problem. 

 

if the ou council perma bans lax/bliss then we can deal with it. until then what good does speculating on a possibility do? doing something always feels good because you have a sense of accomplishment and something you can look at the is real and quantifiable; but it's not always the right thing to do. we should either ban chansey for support or unhealthiness, or not ban it. the temp ban is just somthing we can show the players "hey we are doing something" but it doesnt get anything done since we know what it'll look like.

 

I wasn't making any statements with regards to Chansey I was just summarising what was discussed in the meeting while I was present. 

[Barrage]

90% of this i can't seem to comprehend, but as to the soonish part, i was asleep by this point.


why test ban at all? i mean we know what the meta is like with no chansey as no one used it until recently. we have month of chansey with practically no useage. what the point of a temp ban?

for the time claused people, who cares? if they want to make a team that has nothing to deal with special walls and then stall until they get DQ'd let them? team building has historically never been something we have dealt with for various reasons(see vileplume discussion thread final post). the new time clause mechanics should deal with this problem. until then, let people do stupid things and get DQ'd? waiting seems to just solve this problem.

if the ou council perma bans lax/bliss then we can deal with it. until then what good does speculating on a possibility do? doing something always feels good because you have a sense of accomplishment and something you can look at the is real and quantifiable; but it's not always the right thing to do. we should either ban chansey for support or unhealthiness, or not ban it. the temp ban is just somthing we can show the players "hey we are doing something" but it doesnt get anything done since we know what it'll look like.

Alright I'm on phone so pardon formatting. to address some of your points, we have to test ban as per policy guidelines. Even if we kind of know what the meta looks like with no chansey usage, that's not the meta without chansey. Example ATM we have a meta with low charizard usage but IMO that is because most people are prepared for charizard. If char didn't exist in the meta the usage would probably look different. Also I agree with you that if people want to get stalled out by chansey that is their problem. But that isn't the main reason for the suspect ban. I'm also in your camp that people just need to git gud and chansey doesn't necessarily warrant a ban. That's why it's just a test. Additionally we would only be banning under defensive uber clause if anything. However the definition only holds true because people aren't team building to accommodate chansey. Me and tyrone discussed about this a bit and agreed there were several unused answers.

[Senile]

Alright I'm on phone so pardon formatting. to address some of your points, we have to test ban as per policy guidelines. Even if we kind of know what the meta looks like with no chansey usage, that's not the meta without chansey. Example ATM we have a meta with low charizard usage but IMO that is because most people are prepared for charizard. If char didn't exist in the meta the usage would probably look different. Also I agree with you that if people want to get stalled out by chansey that is their problem. But that isn't the main reason for the suspect ban. I'm also in your camp that people just need to git gud and chansey doesn't necessarily warrant a ban. That's why it's just a test. Additionally we would only be banning under defensive uber clause if anything. However the definition only holds true because people aren't team building to accommodate chansey. Me and tyrone discussed about this a bit and agreed there were several unused answers.

 

Lmao, first of all, you don't have to test ban anything. That's not what the guidelines state. Also, stop spreading your shit around of "naw man everyone just needs to git gud and not run defensive teams XD", it gets old. It's one thing for you to smear that cave art in the bathroom stall that is comp alley, don't spread it around here. If you think Chansey should be banned under the defensive uber clause, then it would not be tested, testing is typically reserved for unhealthy, or maybe uncompetitive aspects. Pokemon banned under the Uber characteristics do not warrant testing, because realistically, there's not much you get from that test.

 

Also, lmao "well people just aren't using some answers for chansey"; maybe they aren't using them because they aren't good, and you aren't some demigod who has all the answers for UU? Chansey has been around for so fucking long that pretending it's only a problem because people aren't using some shitty pokemon you expect them to use doesn't mean that people aren't preparing for it, it could just mean, heaven forbid, you're completely wrong.

[OldKeith]

When Chansey was quick-banned from UU I opposed it because I said Chansey was a setup bait but I admit I was wrong back then. In UU, it does have very few specific counters, but generally its ability to sponge all special hits and most physical hits make it too dominant. One thing makes it uber, though: Natural Cure. Sponging status, special and physical moves is a bit too much for a single pokemon, making it not even need to run Aromatherapy. Ban it, guys.

[Barrage]

When Chansey was quick-banned from UU I opposed it because I said Chansey was a setup bait but I admit I was wrong back then. In UU, it does have very few specific counters, but generally its ability to sponge all special hits and most physical hits make it too dominant. One thing makes it uber, though: Natural Cure. Sponging status, special and physical moves is a bit too much for a single pokemon, making it not even need to run Aromatherapy. Ban it, guys.

Some pokemon don't care though. Like Zangoose has enough base HP to survive 3 tosses. You can even run sub and silk scarf where return will 1hko at +2. And zangoose is not otherwise bad at all. Things like Golem can hit the top used pokemon really hard with a cb eq. if you look at the usage none in the top 10 can take 2 eqs. Golem also out speeds or resists the Pokémon in question, so you can't tell me golem is bad in this meta. I hesitate because of things like this. And I've only given a few examples.

[OldKeith]

Some pokemon don't care though. Like Zangoose has enough base HP to survive 3 tosses. You can even run sub and silk scarf where return will 1hko at +2. And zangoose is not otherwise bad at all. Things like Golem can hit the top used pokemon really hard with a cb eq. if you look at the usage none in the top 10 can take 2 eqs. Golem also out speeds or resists the Pokémon in question, so you can't tell me golem is bad in this meta. I hesitate because of things like this. And I've only given a few examples.

 

The problem with Golem, assuming you run band, is that it gets protect scouted, and chansey can even afford to take an eq at full hp and wish. Zangoose is a nice and scary switch-in. If you look at the previous pages, I posted a list of viable things that can take advantage of Chansey. However, Chansey does still wall a majority of the meta, doing it better than everything else. The way I see it, it walls a vast majority of the meta with little or no effort. Although some things can break it, their only hope is to doubleswitch in on a Chansey, because otherwise Chansey will just wish pass to their counter. I mean, how much better can a defensive pokemon get?

[Barrage]

The problem with Golem, assuming you run band, is that it gets protect scouted, and chansey can even afford to take an eq at full hp and wish. Zangoose is a nice and scary switch-in. If you look at the previous pages, I posted a list of viable things that can take advantage of Chansey. However, Chansey does still wall a majority of the meta, doing it better than everything else. The way I see it, it walls a vast majority of the meta with little or no effort. Although some things can break it, their only hope is to doubleswitch in on a Chansey, because otherwise Chansey will just wish pass to their counter. I mean, how much better can a defensive pokemon get?

Let's expand on your hypothetical situation a bit. In the case of a choice banded earthquake, there are no resists in the top 10 used pokes. Only swellow is immune. So protect scouting the eq does little to nothing. And if we wish pass with chansey, they are taking over 50% of their HP to pass a wish. That means they can't do it again unless chansey somehow comes in for free next time. And there are only so many opportunities to do so because people don't teambuild to accommodate chansey in my opinion. Does it wall a significant portion of the meta? Yes. But only so because people aren't using all the tools available to them to the fullest of their potential, if at all.

[OldKeith]

Let's expand on your hypothetical situation a bit. In the case of a choice banded earthquake, there are no resists in the top 10 used pokes. Only swellow is immune. So protect scouting the eq does little to nothing. And if we wish pass with chansey, they are taking over 50% of their HP to pass a wish. That means they can't do it again unless chansey somehow comes in for free next time. And there are only so many opportunities to do so because people don't teambuild to accommodate chansey in my opinion. Does it wall a significant portion of the meta? Yes. But only so because people aren't using all the tools available to them to the fullest of their potential, if at all.

 

Are you seriously telling me that you think people make teams with no EQ resists? Who are you again?

[fredrichnietze]

I wasn't making any statements with regards to Chansey I was just summarising what was discussed in the meeting while I was present. 

i know noad and thankyou for the summary.

 

this is/was addressed to the rest of the teir council my mistake for not saying so.

 

Alright I'm on phone so pardon formatting. to address some of your points, we have to test ban as per policy guidelines. Even if we kind of know what the meta looks like with no chansey usage, that's not the meta without chansey. Example ATM we have a meta with low charizard usage but IMO that is because most people are prepared for charizard. If char didn't exist in the meta the usage would probably look different. Also I agree with you that if people want to get stalled out by chansey that is their problem. But that isn't the main reason for the suspect ban. I'm also in your camp that people just need to git gud and chansey doesn't necessarily warrant a ban. That's why it's just a test. Additionally we would only be banning under defensive uber clause if anything. However the definition only holds true because people aren't team building to accommodate chansey. Me and tyrone discussed about this a bit and agreed there were several unused answers.

formatting has been pardoned on account of it taking me 2 years of teir'ing before i bothered to learn how to use paragraphs.

 

and i disagree. if a pokemon has no usage then you arent going to prepare for it. people didnt suddenly stop preparing for chansey and now it is a problem. no one used it and "maybe he will use chansey" just didnt go through anyones mind until people started using it. charizard has some usage just not top 10 or 20, chansey had none at all until recently.

 

and yes there are PLENTY of unused answers. chansey is not uber defensive for sure. nidoqueen, king, muk, crobat, aggron, zangoose, mawile, and plenty of other things can safely switch in safely and even more can switch in on most of it's moves safely and kill/force it out.

[Barrage]

i know noad and thankyou for the summary.

this is/was addressed to the rest of the teir council my mistake for not saying so.

formatting has been pardoned on account of it taking me 2 years of teir'ing before i bothered to learn how to use paragraphs.

and i disagree. if a pokemon has no usage then you arent going to prepare for it. people didnt suddenly stop preparing for chansey and now it is a problem. no one used it and "maybe he will use chansey" just didnt go through anyones mind until people started using it. charizard has some usage just not top 10 or 20, chansey had none at all until recently.

and yes there are PLENTY of unused answers. chansey is not uber defensive for sure. nidoqueen, king, muk, crobat, aggron, zangoose, mawile, and plenty of other things can safely switch in safely and even more can switch in on most of it's moves safely and kill/force it out.

I'm gonna link a worthwhile video when I get home.

 

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Edited July 11, 2015 by Barrage

[BurntZebra]

Was seniles post in here hidden? Or am I just imagining that he posted in here. 

[Artemiseta]

had to have been hidden I think

the whole point of not announcing until after today was cause of the tounry that got canceled sigh...

[fredrichnietze]

what did senile post? what canceled tourney?

@barrage youtube is being throttled 1% of the time and blocked 99% of the time so im going to have to use a 3rd party to download it then get a copy before i can watch it and i have d&d in 34 minutes, cliff notes vrs?

[BurntZebra]

Think he was replying to barrages post about a test ban and why there's no point in having a test ban for something if its defensively uber, only having a test ban for something unhealthy. So you need to make the clarification whether or not chansey would be banned for defensive characteristics or unhealthy characteristics since the required action depends on what ban criteria it meets. 

[Artemiseta]

OK so potential rite up Y'all can critique and I can edit the post. this is a start ill save to be looked at. something came up while writing this and I had to stop.

The UU tier council have decided to test ban Chansey for 6 Official UU tournaments. Chansey is being suspect banned because it has been deemed Unhealthy for the meta. A definition of being unhealthy: a pokemon which is unhealthy is something which heavily stagnates or centralizes the metagame in a way which is problematic for a healthy metagame

This was a hard decision to come to but in the end Chansey is able to a lot of things well. among those are the ability to wall every most special attacker that UU has to offer (encore Zam will win). This combined with the ability to eat out physical attackers though toxic stall and protect. this is a very significant portion of the meta. Chansey has also limited team building. Chansey is further able to keep its team mates healthy throughout the match with wish and can absorb status and on the next wish pass its status is cured.

[DrCraig]

Oh goodness that's not what I wanted to see

Edit: yea wording is fine, put together well

Edited July 13, 2015 by DrCraig

[BurntZebra]

 

The UU tier council have has decided to test ban Chansey for 6 Official UU tournaments. Chansey is being suspect banned tested because it has been deemed Unhealthy unhealthy for the meta. A definition of being unhealthy: a pokemon which is unhealthy is something which heavily stagnates or centralizes the metagame in a way which is problematic for a healthy metagame

This was a hard decision to come to but in the end ultimately Chansey is able to wall to   a lot of pokemon extremely well. Among those are Chansey has the ability to wall every most  special attackers that in UU has to offer (encore Zam will win). (seems kind of unnecessary to list one random special attacker than can beat chansey) This combined with the ability to eat out  scout physical attackers through toxic stall and protect. this is a very significant portion of the meta . Chansey has also limited team building by forcing players to run multiple counters to chansey and discouraging the use of all special attackers. In addition, Chansey is further able to keep its team mates healthy throughout the match with the use of wish passes and status absorbing with natural cure. wish and can absorb status and on the next wish pass its status is cured.

crossed out things and replaced them with bolded words

[fredrichnietze]

downloaded and watched the video (i love those guy they make such good content). perfect imbalance seem to be what the creators of pokemon originally wanted, but then legendarys were thrown in T_T.  after banning the ubers we are left with several things that seem rather strong like stab EQ and dragon moves forcing people to bring ground resist/immunity and steels ect.....

 

chansey is S classed imo, but with a fatal flaw. seimic + toxic means there is a rather large number of pokemon that can switch in for free or little damage.

 

toxic has 2 types wit immune, and cleric moves/lum/natural cure/immunity/shed skin/rest to stop/slow it down.

 

seismic toss has fix damage so you can always calculate the damage with no risk of crits or variation, and ghost are immune. further more anything with 201 hp + rest or healing greater then 51 per turn can come in and stall endlessly(ignoring leftovers and spikes). 

 

so while chansey is hard to kill, it's fatal flaw is that it cant do anything or much vs a significant number of pokemon. while it effectively shuts down cb users, it cant switch in safely vs most cb users. it can really only switch in safely vs special attackers, scouted cb users using a move that does not do much to chansey(once chansey is seen this can be predicted), and most walls.

 

this means the best strategy is to bring something that can repetitively switch in vs chansey with either healing, very reliable wish/cleric support, or immunity to toss/toxic AND can threaten chansey along with everything else your opponent has. in sort a wall breaker. 

 

good ou examples would be rhydon, marrowak, medicham, gengar, perish trappers, cb metagross, ect...

good uu examples would be grandbull, hitmonlee, zangoose, crawdaunt, haunter, magmar, aggron, nidoqueen(super fang)

 

we are at the point where chansey is being used a lot but no one is using it's counters yet. once people start using the counters regularly; people should use chansey less and start using counters to the counters more.

 

IF chansey is centralizing people will use chansey even with it's counters everywhere, because it is that good.

 

now there's a lot of reasons why A----------->B--------------->C ect... would not be happening like usual. the biggest ones that comes to mind is the amount of time it takes to make a comp, and the popular belief that chansey will get banned tomorrow or the next day.

 

another could be that it has only been a month with slowking, char, ect... running around and people have not adjusted and found the best strategy's yet.

anyone who saw frags match yesterday saw frags clearly figured out the best strategys already. he brought scizor, chansey, vileplume, haunter, crawdaunt, and slowking. his strategy was very simple. switch in haunter/scizor vs chansey and crawdaunt vs slowking then hit whatever he switches to hard. between the varied and hard hitting moves he had he could and did wear down his opponents answers to each of them. scizor is clearly best countered by slowking, which is coutered by crawdaunt which hits everything hard and is best countered by bulky grass (vile/tangela/cradalily) and bulky water(blastoise/lapras/toed) which can be forced out by vile/chansey. the only answer dx had to vile/chansey was his own vile/chansey and scizor/aggron.

the dance continued until frags wore down the walls and killed them one by one, while wish passing to his wall breakers. 

 

frags looked at his opponents history of battles and saw many walls, particularly chansey and vile, and brought a team composed of walls and wall breakers with one(haunter) also capable of sweeping(which it did). while he did bring a chansey, he could of brought umbreon instead and still won. 

hopefully other players will see frags and other players ahead of the curve and think "i should do what they are doing" and then we will start seeing complaints about different pokemon. 

[hr]

however if we test chansey the meta will move in a different direction, and ultimately what will we learn about chansey? we will see the meta change and see what it would be like with no chansey, but we wont see if people adjust to chansey. if we decided to keep her after 6 tourneys then when she comes back, the meta will have changed and we will have to wait even longer to see people adjust. 

 

the 27th of june was the first UU tourney(kinda) since the last major meta game change. there have been 2x 32 man UU's since. 

imo what we need to decide is "has it been long enough for the meta game to adjust" and "is chansey unhealthy/uber support".

 

also we should probably talk about whether the next scheduled move up/down should be delayed or not since the lax/bliss test is fucking up our useage stats, and should we possibly wait to see what will get moved before deciding on this topic.

 

also welcome back craig.

[BurntZebra]

Frags actually had umbreon, ran a wish/protect/heal bell/pursuit set. 

[fredrichnietze]

shit. sleep. i need it.

[Noad]

So this is your call but I believe that Tyrone is currently on holiday, would you like me to ban Chansey in his absence in time for this weekend's tournaments?