[UU Discussion] Chansey

[Tyrone]

In reaction to: Forfiter and JJ's post in Request thread

 

Common Sets Include:

 

Cleric Chansey

Item: Leftovers

Nature: Bold

EVs: 252HP 252DEF

-Softboil

-Aromatherapy

-Seismic Toss / Counter

-Toxic / Counter

 

Wish Support Chansey

Cleric Fat uguu

Item: Leftovers

Nature: Bold

EVs: 252HP 252DEF

-Wish

-Protect

-Seismic Toss / Counter

-Toxic / Counter

 

Too Poor To Afford Wish Chansey

Item: Leftovers

Nature: Bold

EVs: 252HP 252DEF

-Softboil

-Protect

-Seismic Toss / Counter

-Toxic / Counter

 

**Other sets can include Defense Curl or Growl to not get trapped by Trapinch and Diglett. Mostly lame ass gimmicks.

 

 

Chansey is a fat blob that walls a lot. Chansey hard most special attackers and has a lot of physical bulk compared to other special walls in the tier. Although it walls everything it has little offense pressure, but enough to cripple opponents.

 

 

Basic Criteria for being Unhealthy:

Is it too good not to use?

 

Does it limit teambuilding?

 

Does it force the metagame to stagnate, resulting in an unevolving metagame

 

Does it's presence alone make certain archetypes/playstyles non-viable?

 

So, is Chansey currently unhealthy for the UU metagame? Do you think the metagame can evolve to a situation where Chansey is less centralizing?

[Tyrone]

Public Discussion Yay or Nay.

Why yay or why nay?

[NikhilR]

This is basically a quote from the UU viability thread I had made quite some time ago:

 

 

It's more than just synergy. I could link you my UU pc box and show you how Chansey completely shuts down or makes 2 rows of pokemon just useless with its bulk. Its ability to wish protect and NC is too much compared to Clefable because Clefable can't switch into special attacks with that much ease and when statused it is forced to aroma itself and takes quite a bit of dmg in that process unlike Chansey which just laughs it off since all it needs to do is switch out. It doesn't matter how little of offensive presence it has because seismic toss quite a bit of offensive presence as it is. 

 

Because Chansey isn't forced to run aroma, it can run toxic as the 4th move while clefable runs seismic / wish / aroma / protect. Toxic+Seismic is enough offensive presence imo because it doesn't just hurt switch ins, but it prevents your switch ins from setting up as well. This means that steelix/vileplume are your only valid safe switch ins. Toxic+Seismic means that you can't even outstall or pp stall this thing.

 

The only time I have seen someone use trapping as a strategy, is to beat a pokemon that is generally hard to beat or completely shuts down a particular playstyle. Hence the reason why Trapinch even exists. Not because of its stab eq, not because of how it can revenge kill so many things with qa, but because of how it kills Chansey.

 

If you really want to see the tier improve with more special pokemon becoming viable than just physical, if you want pokemon like manectric, walrein, lanturn etc. to see the light of day more often, this poke is one of the first things that needs to go. 

 

EDIT: forgot to add qa for trapinch revenge killing

 

 

I think it fits the uber defensive and unhealthy criteria. Under which one the council wishes to ban it is up to them, or continue to let it stay in the tier. 

[BurntZebra]

I'm kind of on the fence about chansey. At first I was against banning it since it doesn't really have much offense outside of seismic toss or toxic, but its a pretty much endless pivot with natural cure+protect and choice banders can't really do much vs chansey since it can protect and switch to the appropriate counter. So this leaves very few counters to chansey, either double switching one choice bander to another choice bander on the protect, or a set up physical attacker that doesn't mind seismic toss or toxic too much (morning sun scizor basically). Pokemon with high base hp like azumarill/kangaskhan/walrein have a decent match up vs chansey, walrein and azumarill both can set up sub drum sets vs chansey. Charizard/magmar can also take advantage of the predictable damage of chansey to set up belly drums. 

 

Curious to see what other people have to say

[Robofiend]

I think the problem with Subdrum is that Twave/Toxic is so good on Chansey to begin with, and either will ruin that sweep (especially with Spikes damage). Hitmonlee would a fine check, except for its need to run CB and Chansey's ability to 3-shot it with Seismic Toss - apart from that, the tier has relatively few Physical attackers that can take status, repeated Seismic Tosses or status (RIP Machamp, RIP Miltank), making Chansey surprisingly threatening. While Toxic/Seismic Toss is relatively useless against stall, it stops almost every offensive pokemon in the tier from working effectively without lots of cleric support. If we're discussing Chansey under the pretense of it being defensive, however, it's best to focus on the fact that it basically can't be taken down by anything, rather than its (relatively weak) offense. One of the biggest problems with Chansey, as others have pointed out, is that there are only a couple of ways to surely beat it: 

 

1) CB Superpower - if for some reason Chansey decides to stay in, it's lights out. However, with Protect and ubiquitous fighting resists like Vileplume and Slowking, this strategy really only works late game. The usual scenario for the choice bander is to switch in a status move or Seismic Toss, get Protect scouted and then get walled the next turn. While this is a good opportunity for a special attacker to switch in (usually), Chansey displays the same problem that Blissey does in OU - it's impossible for special sweepers to take down (unlike Umbreon, for instance).

 

2) Swords Dance/Bulk Up - Scizor and Immunity Zangoose do a good job of abusing Toxic sets (especially with Morning Sun) but that's about it. Hitmonlee gets 3-shotted, so even with a free swap in against Twave it's not going to have a lot of longevity, especially if it takes Toxic or too many switch-in attacks (not to mention that Hitmonlee often needs a CB in UU to break through all these walls). In either case, there's a good chance you're going to get status'd, making wall switch ins easier and future set-ups even harder to pull off (without cleric support). CM Misdreavus also falls into this category, but will again find itself pretty useless if statused, not to mention that walls like Umbreon quickly check it.

 

However, one thing that isn't being considered is Trapinch, who can quickly switch in and break Chansey, allowing other pokemon a better chance to sweep. Part of the problem is that Trapinch is rarely used, and even if it was it'd pretty much exist solely to kill Chansey, as its awful defenses make it less than useful even against Umbreon, who can survive a Superpower and Wish itself back to full health. 

 

So in light of all that, we have a pokemon that's pretty good against sweepers of all sorts and doesn't have a lot of natural checks, basically allowing it to fit on any team without real setbacks, so long as the rest of the team can manage hits from its counters while they slowly get worn down by status or Seismic Toss. I'm not really sure what development there *could* be in UU to stop Chansey from being so good, but if there seems to be a possibility for some of the weirder sets (Subdrum Walrein/Azu, in particular) or Trapinch to actually be effective on teams, then it might be worth it to let Chansey stay, despite seeming hard to check right now.

[Artemiseta]

ok first off this should be bumped a bit

second in response to zebra. I like the kind of change of mind on it and you are right to be on the fence. chansey is an endless piviot. pair it with slowking and scizor will not do much of anything. with protect it scouts the choice banders and u can switch in the appropriate resistance. I do disagree with magmar an zard being able to set up the belly drum t a degree.

first off if they switch in they are either toxicd/ para or they take a toss, or if they are smart they come on on a wish. it takes a turn for the set up so chansey can do 1 of 2 things. either run to something that is faster and ths both are unable to do the damage they could because no salic or get a toxic/ para in and still crippled. other option chansey can stay  in and toss to see if sub to be broken and then to drum is suicide. that is risky cause if straight drum then yea chansey is in trouble and the sweep happens but then if u have priority then you are pretty safe. or if you switched into a toss then you are dead anyway as to drum will kill you and no attack of yours 1 shots chansey. I think I covere the options. the pokes that run from chansey end to not make it protect and wish so coming in unscathed is unlikely

robo im curious about the last part of your post. do you mean that we should let it stay in the tier for potentially 3 pokes to be viable. 1 is already viable and you have created a rather gimmicky set for another. (you did forget about sub punch muk tho just fyi)

so the best checks I have been able to think of are:

sub punch muk (hits over 200 hp so toss doesn't break)

azumaril in general as it can sub with 51 hp subs or can cb putting chansey in a bad position

trapinch (surfire tho trapping and I don't want to start that discussion)

diglett

gimmicky morning sun nidoking but it cant do enough to win without pp stall

gimmicky sub drum walrein

I guess some pokes that can set up while being immune to toxic. like scizor and aggron both run from partnership with slowking

[fredrichnietze]

another gimicky thing is morning sun nidoqueen max def + super fang + at least one phsy attack. switches in endlessly vs twave/toxic/seimic and can insta heal + s fang runs down chansey's hp pretty quick. EQ/fp can kill after 1-2 s fangs meaning chansey has to heal constantly or switch out. 

 

aggron is less gimick as wish passers can all switch in vs chansey easy and pass a wish to aggron which can 1hko chansey with super, or 2hko with rs/dedge/itail. 

 

another gimicky thing no one mentioned is rest + meanlook/toxic umbreon. ofc this only works vs chansey with no twave. taunt can stop chansey from healing, but if you have to switch in chansey could toxic you on switch forcing you to run rest. since rest takes 3 turns and taunt only last 3 turns chansey can heal before toxic kills(6 turns).

 

also while chansey can protect, it cant protect every turn, which means if you switch in a CB'er on the protect turn (fairly predictable) then you can force chansey to run that 50/50 risk or switch not knowing what move you chose.

 

this being said, im also on fence. not so much for defensive but for centralizing. only so many things can beat it and this forces you to bring 1-3 of them on every team. chansey + 1-3 of it's few counters on every team seems dangerously like stagnant unevolving meta game where team building is limited. 

[OldKeith]

Chansey allows a number of pokemon to set up on it. This assumes a Chansey with Toxic/Twave and Seismic toss as offence, assuming a clean switch.

 

Kangaskhan - Can be a big threat behind a sub, with enough coverage to dent pretty much anything (3 of Focus Punch, Crunch, Return, Fire Punch)

Muk - Sub Focus Punch, Thief, Shadow Punch and E-Punches may not be enough to guarantee that it does not get walled by something

Sableye - Sub Sableye can Focus Punch, but it will not do that much damage

Haunter - Needs Taunt and Sludge Bomb to be able to beat Chansey in a 1v1

Misdreavus - Can start setting up calm minds behind sub

Vileplume - Can force Chansey out with Leech Seed

Breloom - Can spore and sub-punch away

Charizard - Sub-drummer can drum away, and the seismic toss will take it to salac range. A Chansey going for Toxic vs a full HP Zard can be a very risky play, but this is very situational

Tentacruel - Can swords dance and 2hko with Waterfall (54.1% - 63.9%)

Wynaut - Can come and encore the healing moves (or protects), but this seems a bit far-fetched

Diglett, Trapinch - we know them

Scizor - Can set up Swords Dance. If it knows Thief, it will be a threat even to psychics.

Porygon - Mixed Facade Set needs status and 252+ attack to remotely scare Chansey (56.3% - 66.4%)

Umbreon - Can Mean look it and Toxic-Rest Stall it, but that might be too much of a gimmick. Taunting a Chansey is not bad though, especially with spike support

 

These are some quick thoughts about Chansey. While some things beat it, it may still wall a bit too much of the rest.

[Artemiseta]

new usage from TT is in

top 4 slowking vileplume chansey scizor

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FRdtImICqbuzP8zjGub8rHtSLI3ietSGjBS8CPbbqHs/edit#gid=0

[ThinkNice]

charizard so low

[Artemiseta]

think that post has no use at all. its the top 4 usage that should have caught your attention. they are used with each other and creates a meta that is stall based (not a bad thing necessarily) but in this case people run slowking vileplume chansey scizor then fillers. usually swallow and crawdaunt or steelix.

this creates an endless cycle. in uu at the moment it is pretty normal to see matches that are running 45 minutes or longer in particular I remember frags v destructx I think is was running over 110 minutes with this group of pokemon

[OldKeith]

The post that I made shows viable things that break the said core. Of course, if people bring stall vs stall matches are going to last forever, but i never had a problem in the post-split UU, because I always try to break stall. Maybe people should take some risks when team building, or just use generic stuff and complain when they lose. Chansey is not broken.

Edited July 1, 2015 by OldKeith

[NikhilR]

The post that I made shows viable things that break the said core. Of course, if people bring stall vs stall matches are going to last forever, but i never had a problem in the post-split UU, because I always try to break stall. Maybe people should take some risks when team building, or just use generic stuff and complain when they lose. Chansey is not broken.

 

In the current UU meta and with the pokemon that Chansey surrounds itself with, it becomes much harder to break Chansey. Let me address the pokemon you made one by one:

 

1) Kangaskhan can indeed be a big threat behind a sub but it can't switch in on a toxic. However, it is very viable and can dmg almost everything chansey surrounds itself with, allowing the Chansey user to feel that using it can be a liability.

 

2) With Scizor+Umbreon atm, Misdreavus won't get to shine that much even it sets up calm minds. 

 

3) Vile can force it out indeed but there are hardly any leech seed vileplumes out there, and aroma/synthesis/sludge/giga is the standard set, so you will be giving up something important for it. I guess you can sack synth for leech, but at crucial times, synth could be more useful since leech can miss also. 

 

4) Breloom doesn't sound that viable to me atm. I could be wrong but with vile+slowking around, it'll need a lot of support to break through that core. Once it is able to do that, it can easily break through a stall team. 

 

5) Tentacruel can SD on the switch in but losing sludgebomb as one of its physical moves hurts it since slowking can come in and psychic it out. But yeah I can say it's quite viable atm.

 

6) Wynaut, as you said, is far fetched. But it works.

 

7) Diglett/Trapinch work as well. Trapinch is the better option though because of the guaranteed kill.

 

8) With Scizor back again, it's back to being the best and most safest option to switch into a Chansey.

 

9) The moment Umbreon switches in, definitely the Chansey user won't stay in and instead they'll go to Scizor or something else that can take advantage of Umbreon. It can't switch in on toxic either. 

 

As Artemiseta mentioned, there's gonna be a defensive core of scizor/vile/slowking/chansey and the first step towards breaking this core is to take out Chansey and that is with the help of a trapper. If either of the other three (Scizor, Vile, Slowking) faints, that core can still be effective. Keith, have you tried breaking stall teams post split UU by using some of the other pokemon you've mentioned, bar trapinch/diglett? It's very hard and requires hard core scouting, so that you can find the right wall breaker. Eitherways, seems like this is the UU Council's decision. For one, I think it'd be more beneficial if a discussion thread was created in Comp Alley to get the input of the community as well because they've been the ones asking for a ban (DoubleJ, Forfiter). 

[Artemiseta]

ok tyrone and think and fred

need your opinion when you read this. yes or no for a chansey discussion thread in the general forums so that the community can contribute.

my vote is yes. you can either like the post or just say yes or no in your own post. sorry no shortcut to say no

[Tyrone]

ok tyrone and think and fred

need your opinion when you read this. yes or no for a chansey discussion thread in the general forums so that the community can contribute.

my vote is yes. you can either like the post or just say yes or no in your own post. sorry no shortcut to say no

Yes

[BurntZebra]

Yes

but you don't get a vote 

[Artemiseta]

its to put a thread up not for banning it and I still want his opinion for a thread regardless

[BurntZebra]

its to put a thread up not for banning it and I still want his opinion for a thread regardless

For the sake of odds and evens, imo he still shouldn't get a vote, in case thinknice and fred think that it doesn't deserve a discussion (just in a theoretical situation)

[ThinkNice]

Yeah I think Chansey should be our primary focus for now. I think it will come down to a suspect and I'm also fine with having a Chansey suspect test honestly. But let's see what a discussion thread will spark first.

[Artemiseta]

So think and me want the thread and Tyrone honorary says yes too. Fredward is a little slow but this is majority anyway. To at least create the thread for public discussion. I can create it tomorrow morning when I wake up unless someone else beats me to it. On mobile now.

[fredrichnietze]

i vote yes on discussion thread. im not sure it needs action but it definitely should be discussed. 

 

nik your post was gold and should be copy'pasted to the thread when it's up.

 

and sorry guys, i have been helping a relative move and working whenever im not helping move.

[Tyrone]

Alright, creating the discussion

[Artemiseta]

Thanks tyrone

[Barrage]

I agree that this is a really difficult call to make. I made a post in the discussion thread somewhat detailing a part of my opinion regarding this. While setup users are an option against Chansey because many are running protect to scout band users, it's kind of risky because of course once you reveal you are not banded, then the jig is up, and you are risking getting crippled by a twave or toxic. Seismic toss also really hurts frail setup mons. Pretty much every swords dance user has a bad HP stat and gets 3 shot by seismic toss. So even that is limiting. I'd still like to see people start to use different mons though. Things like Crawdaunt are only now starting to see a lot of usage, and I think the choice band variant has a lot of potential even if protect exists. Choice banded crunch doesn't have very many resists, so once it's in, it has the potential to do a lot of damage. I also think Zangoose is very misrepresented since many of the Pokes in the top of usage aren't going to outspeed it and after a swords dance it is very threatening. Even an unboosted return can widdle checks and counters. I definitely see where everyone is coming from, as Chansey is annoying and provides a surprising amount of pressure due to seismic toss and protect. But I'm definitely on the fence about this, because so far when I have seen Chansey do well, it's actually doing well because the teams that are fighting it have very low offensive pressure. I'd like to see what happens when people play more aggressively against it. On paper it sounds bad, but getting a free swords dance on something like Zangoose can actually be brutal for the opposing party.

[fredrichnietze]

heya barrage o/ when'd you get here?