barfeelaadmi Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 11 hours ago, pachima said: You can´t just underestimate how much of a drawback being locked in this tier is. also lets not forget the beautiful confusion that comes at the end. Link to comment
suigin Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, barfeelaadmi said: also lets not forget the beautiful confusion that comes at the end. Oh yeah good point, I always forget that. The 30% chance of hitting yourself, on a move that was already pretty stupid with 50% chance of hitting yourself on a tier with more steel types that punished harder than our current steels like Jirachi and Heatran. Edited January 10, 2018 by suigin Link to comment
jpshadow Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 LOL i am shocked that people complain about about dragons, they are good but with all those steel types around...if Garchomp was included i understand. Heidregon gets walled by so many things...90 base power outrage is kinda useless and out of place. Link to comment
suigin Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Just now, jpshadow said: Heidregon gets walled by so many things @pachima axx 1 Link to comment
jpshadow Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) I noticed every pvp battle, people are using some generic teams, steel types are everywhere and everyone lacks a certain sweeper. I haven't seen a single Weavile,scarf cham those are incredible...How is Heidregon a problem when we have access to Milotic? Blissey? How is 120 base power outrage a problem when you can wall to no end with Skarm,Metagross,Tangrowth(yes it can be very annoying),Bronzong,Rhyperior, and finally the most annoying of all Ferrothorn. Edited January 10, 2018 by jpshadow barfeelaadmi and Maelstrom 2 Link to comment
Maelstrom Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I feel like I am going to learn some stuff in this discussion. Link to comment
Kizhaz Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, jpshadow said: I noticed every pvp battle, people are using some generic teams, steel types are everywhere and everyone lacks a certain sweeper. I haven't seen a single Weavile,scarf cham those are incredible...How is Heidregon a problem when we have access to Milotic? Blissey? How is 120 base power outrage a problem when you can wall to no end with Skarm,Metagross,Tangrowth(yes it can be very annoying),Bronzong,Rhyperior, and finally the most annoying of all Ferrothorn. Because of those "walls" all but 1 are weak to fire blast which most dragons can carry, also Hydreigon gets Superpower for a 2hko on Blissey. 252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 230-270 (53.1 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery I wouldn't call it a safe switch in, unless you run max def Rhyp 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 71-86 (35.1 - 42.5%) -- 86.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery A spdef Milo might be decent, but once Draco is a thing it's nuked Link to comment
suigin Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 4 hours ago, jpshadow said: I noticed every pvp battle, people are using some generic teams, steel types are everywhere and everyone lacks a certain sweeper. I haven't seen a single Weavile,scarf cham those are incredible...How is Heidregon a problem when we have access to Milotic? Blissey? How is 120 base power outrage a problem when you can wall to no end with Skarm,Metagross,Tangrowth(yes it can be very annoying),Bronzong,Rhyperior, and finally the most annoying of all Ferrothorn. Dragon+Fire is perfect coverage and hits anything in the metagame neutrally, this means Hydreigon (And any non-Haxorus dragon) can run any 2 moves it wants in its two other slots. Weavile is good but cannot reliably switch in on well anything, same with Scarf Cham who can only switch into a single Dragon Pulse and then go for a move in a metagame where Reuniclus is everywhere (Not to mention neither can't do much to Scarf Hydreigon). Like previously mentioned Blissey dies to Life Orb Superpower, any steel type would die to Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Milotic is the closest thing to a thing walling it but Stallbreaker set with Taunt also breaks past it (Albeit it's uncommmon) and depending on Milo's EV spread you may only need a hazard or two to break past it with lorb Dragon Pulse anyways. In any case no, not a lot walls it. Outrage was a problem in a metagame with those Pokemon mentioned and many more which were bigger pains, in MMO the confusion rate is 30% unlike in OG BW where it is 50% meaning it'd be even more spammable than it was. The only thing you listed that can reliably stay on most Outrages is Skarmory since it has Roost , everything else can be chipped down allowing for a second Outrage user to clean up and since Outrage is such a punishing move, luring these Pokemon in would be pretty easy, specially since otherwise you'd risk them dragon dancing till these counters do absolutely nothing. Link to comment
pachima Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 13 hours ago, jpshadow said: Heidregon gets walled by so many things.. 1 I am so glad you typed Heidreigon instead of Hydreigon, cause it would otherwise be a fully wrong statement. Link to comment
jpshadow Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I noticed with all the replies that they follow ''Smogon" sets and spreads. if you are running Rhyperior without defense/hp/attack evs that is your problem, people running it with speed evs are very ambitious. If you are running Milotic with bold and max def because smogon said so that is also your problem (125 vs 79 base defense stat)...Also Skarm has WW, Tangrowth does not care about fire punch/fang ever after 1 dd and can put them to sleep or even kill them with hp ice, it has great overall stats. No one uses Hippowdon ... The game was designed so you won't be able to switch that many things to stop dragons. And Finally Ice shards. 4 hours ago, pachima said: I am so glad you typed Heidreigon instead of Hydreigon, cause it would otherwise be a fully wrong statement. Sorry English is not my first language, that Pokemon is spelled completely different where i come from, I am glad you weren't confused. barfeelaadmi 1 Link to comment
suigin Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, jpshadow said: I noticed with all the replies that they follow ''Smogon" sets and spreads. if you are running Rhyperior without defense/hp/attack evs that is your problem, people running it with speed evs are very ambitious. If you are running Milotic with bold and max def because smogon said so that is also your problem (125 vs 79 base defense stat)...Also Skarm has WW, Tangrowth does not care about fire punch/fang ever after 1 dd and can put them to sleep or even kill them with hp ice, it has great overall stats. No one uses Hippowdon ... The game was designed so you won't be able to switch that many things to stop dragons. And Finally Ice shards. Sorry English is not my first language, that Pokemon is spelled completely different where i come from, I am glad you weren't confused. 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 108-127 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 116-140 (69.4 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 103-123 (46.6 - 55.6%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 16 Atk Rhyperior Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 126-150 (75.4 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Bold Milotic is actually pretty decent but yeah it's up to the user, it's still only 1 (one) thing that can wall current Hydreigon and even then it can lose to an appropriate set. Link to comment
Gl00n Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Just found out about the outrage nerf.. why nerf it to that extent? Read the replies about balancing issues (Yes one can fairly well wall a dragon, it has been doable when it was 120bp and they certainly will now) Fine that the devs have chosen to go with gen3 outrage but why? The reason for 'a' nerf is fair, but why not nerf it like hydro pump and such which are now 110. Did the testing really only showed outrage to be balanced at 90? Makes me wonder if there even was testing with bp rates between 120 and 90 and that it was just turned back to gen3 outrage to be done with it(just a thought ofcourse)? Also on the comment of Kizhaz, walls will have to worry about those coverage moves now that outrage has been nerfed. Otherwise dragon would have used outrage, gets locked and tanked. One has to be wary of coverages moves ofcourse but if outrage were the go to move it Was, then you can just switch into outrage Wall it, kill it, done (you're a bad trainer if you dont have anything against of the most popular typings/pokemon..) Link to comment
suigin Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Gl00n said: Just found out about the outrage nerf.. why nerf it to that extent? Read the replies about balancing issues (Yes one can fairly well wall a dragon, it has been doable when it was 120bp and they certainly will now) Fine that the devs have chosen to go with gen3 outrage but why? The reason for 'a' nerf is fair, but why not nerf it like hydro pump and such which are now 110. Did the testing really only showed outrage to be balanced at 90? Makes me wonder if there even was testing with bp rates between 120 and 90 and that it was just turned back to gen3 outrage to be done with it(just a thought ofcourse)? Also on the comment of Kizhaz, walls will have to worry about those coverage moves now that outrage has been nerfed. Otherwise dragon would have used outrage, gets locked and tanked. One has to be wary of coverages moves ofcourse but if outrage were the go to move it Was, then you can just switch into outrage Wall it, kill it, done (you're a bad trainer if you dont have anything against of the most popular typings/pokemon..) 90 was the only "canon" option we had to nerf it since we only stick to options that exist in the games. Link to comment
Raichuforyou Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, suigin said: 90 was the only "canon" option we had to nerf it since we only stick to options that exist in the games. I would really hope you guys would take some creative justice on it to give it a custom base power (95-115 like some people are saying here) because it's obvious that 120 is too much and 90 gives it literally no reason to use the move ever. Link to comment
suigin Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 19 minutes ago, Raichu4u said: I would really hope you guys would take some creative justice on it to give it a custom base power (95-115 like some people are saying here) because it's obvious that 120 is too much and 90 gives it literally no reason to use the move ever. That opens a can of worms that most people won't want open. everbroth and WildHodor 1 1 Link to comment
Raichuforyou Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, suigin said: That opens a can of worms that most people won't want open. I see a lot of people pretty supportive in this thread of such a change for this one move this one time. Link to comment
WildHodor Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Raichu4u said: I see a lot of people pretty supportive in this thread of such a change for this one move this one time. But who decides if it should be bp 95, 100 or 115 and for what reasons. Its easier to just go with something thst was at least once canon suigin 1 Link to comment
suigin Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, WildHodor said: But who decides if it should be bp 95, 100 or 115 and for what reasons. Its easier to just go with something thst was at least once canon This and when does the non canon balancing stop? Should we make Gunk Shot have 100% accuracy and 140 BP because of its bad typing? Scald have 70% accuracy? Focus Blast 100 BP and 90 Accuracy? For how long would we playtest them before we decide whether they are ok changes of they need more adjusting? When people breed for mons they breed them for specific results, we shouldn't really have such volatile changes that affect how these mons perform. Link to comment
Raichuforyou Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 14 minutes ago, WildHodor said: But who decides if it should be bp 95, 100 or 115 and for what reasons. Its easier to just go with something thst was at least once canon I'll say that the decision should be made to make Outrage effectively at least be a sidegrade from dragon claw. As of right now if you run a Pokemon that can run dragon claw, there should absolutely be no reason to use outrage. That should pretty much be a reason on its own that the power of the move should be adjusted. To answer your question as well, I'll just say that the balancing team should be responsible for that. They obviously made the balancing decision to move it from 120 to 90. The only thing is that they are arbitrarily confining themselves to 120 or 90 just because those were "canon" numbers. I get the concern to not want to open that can of worms, but it's not like they're doing something outrageously different like making intimidate also drop special attack, or scald super effective against Grass types. They're would just simply raise the power by 10 so it's actually a move to consider to use again for dragon types. Link to comment
WildHodor Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, Raichu4u said: I'll say that the decision should be made to make Outrage effectively at least be a sidegrade from dragon claw. As of right now if you run a Pokemon that can run dragon claw, there should absolutely be no reason to use outrage. That should pretty much be a reason on its own that the power of the move should be adjusted. To answer your question as well, I'll just say that the balancing team should be responsible for that. They obviously made the balancing decision to move it from 120 to 90. The only thing is that they are arbitrarily confining themselves to 120 or 90 just because those were "canon" numbers. I get the concern to not want to open that can of worms, but it's not like they're doing something outrageously different like making intimidate also drop special attack, or scald super effective against Grass types. They're would just simply raise the power by 10 so it's actually a move to consider to use again for dragon types. But thats exactly the problem, why 10 and not 20 points stronger and if someone else is not satisfied the next thread to change the bp will pop up. Saying outrage should be buffed because everybody uses dragon claw is a bad argument, water gun shouldnt be buffed because everybody uses surf (or hydro). Link to comment
Raichuforyou Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 I'll admit I'm in the wrong here. For some reason I thought Dragon Claw was also 90 BP. Carry on then. Outrage functions as a totally fine sidegrade from Dragon Claw. Link to comment
Gl00n Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 3 hours ago, WildHodor said: But who decides if it should be bp 95, 100 or 115 and for what reasons. Its easier to just go with something thst was at least once Damage calculations^ should point the minimum (gen3) and maximum(gen4 onwards) so if the base power were (sad to have read that it doesnt) interchangeable you could step up, step down and find a fair midway Link to comment
Gl00n Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 3 hours ago, WildHodor said: But thats exactly the problem, why 10 and not 20 points stronger and if someone else is not satisfied the next thread to change the bp will pop up. Saying outrage should be buffed because everybody uses dragon claw is a bad argument, water gun shouldnt be buffed because everybody uses surf (or hydro). Damage calculations, start off at 120, make your way down until it proves to be a lot more fair Link to comment
Gl00n Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 3 hours ago, suigin said: This and when does the non canon balancing stop? Should we make Gunk Shot have 100% accuracy and 140 BP because of its bad typing? Scald have 70% accuracy? Focus Blast 100 BP and 90 Accuracy? For how long would we playtest them before we decide whether they are ok changes of they need more adjusting? When people breed for mons they breed them for specific results, we shouldn't really have such volatile changes that affect how these mons perform. Outrage nerf is pretty volatile tbh, the move will barely / not be run anymore, where it was the strongest physical dragon attack before. A nerf is a nerf, ir should be a good nerf. Not 'canon' or 'non-canon', as long as they can implement it, why not go for the further testing and making outrage actually fair to use (as opposed to the 120)? Also mentioning other moves with drawbacks helps nothing when talking about another move, they are fine as they are. The ' non canon balancing ' stops when moves do appropriate damage(also when they are not touched in the first place). There is no further need to then make another thread about yet again buffing outrage since its already doing proper damage. Link to comment
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