Rakhmaninov Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) Doubles Viability Rankings Hi everyone! Welcome to the Doubles Viability Rankings! Please give detailed reasoning why you think a Pokemon warrants a tier shift. (Tier listing is now in alphabetical order) Doubles Viability Rankings Discord: https://discord.gg/MKtjuzyMkv Other useful links: Spoiler S Tier (S Tier is reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the Doubles metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.) Garchomp Metagross A+ Tier (A Tier is reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Doubles metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits) Crobat Hitmontop Rotom (Wash) Tyranitar Zapdos A Tier Blastoise Hydreigon Mamoswine Reuniclus Salamence Scizor Serperior Togekiss A- Tier Chandelure Excadrill Hariyama Kingdra Ludicolo Mienshao Pelipper Politoed Porygon2 Raikou Rotom (Mow) Suicune Volcarona B+ Tier (B Tier is reserved for Pokemon that are great in the Doubles metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.) Abomasnow Amoonguss Arcanine Bronzong Conkeldurr Dragonite Entei Gastrodon Gigalith Gyarados Jellicent Milotic Poliwrath Rotom (Heat) Whimsicott B Tier Dusclops Exeggutor Ferrothorn Gengar Nidoking Nidoqueen Ninetales Raichu Sableye Shaymin Torkoal Venusaur B- Tier Bisharp Braviary Charizard Electabuzz Escavalier Gliscor Jolteon Lucario Mr. Mime Rhyperior Slowking Snorlax Vanilluxe Edited February 14 by Rakhmaninov see discord redbluegreen, christianferras, LordCyber and 15 others 14 3 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted May 25, 2020 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) Common Cores Rain [Importable] Trick Room [Importable] Sand [Importable] Tailwind [Importable] RainRoom [Importable] SunRoom [Importable] Edited April 11, 2021 by Rakhmaninov Updated for Season #3 berad1cal, SrRodriguez, LordCyber and 3 others 5 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 (edited) Doubles Competitive Guide A fantastic resource by @OrangeManiac for understanding how to use each Pokémon listed in the viability rankings Doubles Team Building Frameworks A very useful guide to team building in the doubles metagame Edited February 23, 2021 by Rakhmaninov berad1cal 1 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 (edited) Great to see someone to start this for Doubles! But I just have to point out that creating the viability rankings straight from usage in descending order isn't really a good way to create conversation. Sure, when you are suggesting something unconventional to high rankings you have to make a pretty compelling argument to convince people but if your argument can be immediately brushed off with arguments that rely on usage, the whole thread turns very non-creative and bland. I'd recommend to take the usage statistics out completely from the rankings. The usage can be brought up to strengthen your argument but having the original post list them make it seem like usage play a bigger part in this discussion than it should. What comes to actual suggestions: Togekiss - S tier mon. I don't think it cannot be listed as anything else. Even if you take away its enormous support movepool, it's still a strong Pokemon. You could use it as an offensive piece in your team and it still would perform great. But when you add the fact it can Follow Me and Helping Hand, it's so difficult and unpredictable to play against so that to put it simply Togekiss can be slapped to any kind of team and perform a good role there. Garchomp - S/A+. With the support of Togekiss, Garchomp can get an easy Swords Dance off and just start spamming it from there. Sure, it has to be scared of Wide Guard but it has Dragon Claw to hit every Wide Guard user with enormous power. Most complete sweeper in Doubles. Blastoise - A+. Not many Pokemon have the best two moves in Doubles at once: Follow Me and Fake Out. And when said Pokemon is a bulky Water-type, you have the tools for great support Pokemon already. Blastoise's stats are very solid and offensively pressure Dragons with with Icy Wind/Ice Beam which is a really underappreciated trait in current meta. Probably the best example of a Pokemon that is overlooked by usage statistics but probably has to do with the fact that many people who play Doubles don't play "Doubles minded" and rather just use Pokemon that are strong in Singles OU. Kingdra - S/A+. Kingdra has two powerful sets. Sure, you can often make an educated guess whether Kingdra is a Focus Energy spammer or a rain sweeper but both at those roles Kingdra is tremendously powerful. Focus Energy's set power comes from great supporters like Togekiss and Blastoise, sure, but Kingdra is just so much better than most set up sweepers with such a simple set up move. Rain Kingdra is also insane and rain undoubtedly is the strongest weather in Doubles, at least when not speficially built against. Arcanine - B. A bit controversial opinion but PokeMMO Doubles might be the most hostile metagame Arcanine has ever had. Intimidate isnt as strong in MMO Doubles as you would think and basically the whole metagame hits Arcanine with huge power. Snarling is a very powerful and overlooked trait Arcanine has, I gotta give him that. Gengar - Also hate to say but I think it's a B mon. Glass cannons are difficult to play in Doubles. Gengar doesn't OHKO a lot of things and it gets OHKOd by half of the viable metagame. I think Gengar's main upside is being a fast Taunter that cannot be Fake Out, which is an enormously powerful trait but in the long run it's just difficult to play. Ludicolo - A. I think Ludicolo is better than people give it credit for. It doesn't even need to be in a rain team but obviously performs there best. Fake Out can buy precious turns, especially against Trick Room which rain struggles against. Also a general note, I think the A tier is slightly too big but besides those two aforementioned ones I don't have a good argument to bring anything down and rather just argued more things to be lifted up lol. Anyways, here's my main personal points - hope to see how this thread comes along! Edited May 26, 2020 by OrangeManiac aZaz07, Rakhmaninov, xXBlu3BreathXx and 5 others 7 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 6 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Great to see someone to start this for Doubles! But I just have to point out that creating the viability rankings straight from usage in descending order isn't really a good way to create conversation. Sure, when you are suggesting something unconventional to high rankings you have to make a pretty compelling argument to convince people but if your counter-argument can be immediately brushed off with arguments that rely on usage, the whole thread turns very non-creative and bland. I'd recommend to take the usage statistics out completely from the rankings. The usage can be brought up to strengthen your argument but having the original post list them make it seem like usage play a bigger part in this discussion than it should. What comes to actual suggestions: Togekiss - S tier mon. I don't think it cannot be listed as anything else. Even if you take away its enormous support movepool, it's still a strong Pokemon. You could use it as an offensive piece in your team and it still would perform great. But when you add the fact it can Follow Me and Helping Hand, it's so difficult and unpredictable to play against so that to put it simply Togekiss can be slapped to any kind of team and perform a good role there. Garchomp - S/A+. With the support of Togekiss, Garchomp can get an easy Swords Dance off and just start spamming it from there. Sure, it has to be scared of Wide Guard but it has Dragon Claw to hit every Wide Guard user with enormous power. Most complete sweeper in Doubles. Blastoise - A+. Not many Pokemon have the best two moves in Doubles at once: Follow Me and Fake Out. When you add to the fact said Pokemon is a bulky Water-type, you have the tools for great support Pokemon already. Blastoise's stats are very solid and offensively pressure Dragons with with Icy Wind/Ice Beam which is a really underappreciated trait in current meta. Probably the best example of a Pokemon that is overlooked by usage statistics but probably has to do with the fact that many people who play Doubles don't play "Doubles minded" and rather just use Pokemon that are strong in Singles OU. Kingdra - S/A+. Kingdra has two powerful sets. Sure, you can often make an educated guess whether Kingdra is a Focus Energy spammer or a rain sweeper but both at those roles Kingdra is tremendously powerful. Focus Energy's set power comes from great supporters like Togekiss and Blastoise, sure, but Kingdra is just so much better than most set up sweepers with such a simple set up move. Rain Kingdra is also insane and rain undoubtedly is the strongest weather in Doubles, at least in a vacuum. Arcanine - B. A bit controversial opinion but PokeMMO Doubles might be the most hostile metagame Arcanine has ever had. Intimidate isnt as strong in MMO Doubles as you would think and basically the whole metagame hits Arcanine with huge power. Gengar - Also hate to say but I think it's a B mon. Glass cannons are difficult to play in Doubles. Gengar doesn't OHKO a lot of things and it gets OHKOd by half of the viable metagame. I think Gengar's main upside is being a fast Taunter that cannot be Fake Out, which is an enormously powerful trait but in the long run it's just difficult to play. Ludicolo - A. I think Ludicolo is better than people give it credit for. It doesn't even need to be in a rain team but obviously performs there best. Fake Out can buy precious turns, especially against Trick Room which rain struggles against. Also a general note, I think the A tier is slightly too big but besides those two aforementioned ones I don't have a good argument to bring anything down and rather just argued more things to be lifted up lol. Anyways, here's my main personal points - hope to see how this thread comes along! Fantastic response, thank you @OrangeManiac! I agree with all points raised, and will make those changes asap. I don't think that your opinion on arcanine is that controversial - it is a good mon to round off FWG cores but other than that it faces a lot of competition. Also quoting @Zigh Quote I would say both garchomp and blastoise are S tier without any doubt. They excell at their role, and can be used pretty much in any team. Rotom-W from a- to A (good typing alongside with its ability, enough support moves and deals super effective dmg to the most common follow me users). There are more mons that don't cut into this list because of their usage (typhlosion, for example. Could be easily A- or B). Changes: Garchomp A Tier -> S Tier Togekiss A+ Tier -> S Tier Blastoise B Tier -> A+ Tier Kingdra A Tier -> S Tier Rotom-W A- Tier -> A Tier Arcanine A- Tier -> B Tier Gengar A Tier -> B Tier Ludicolo B Tier -> A Tier Also, here are some other pokemon worth considering for the rankings that didn't make the usage cut Aerodactyl 47 2.76% Dusclops 45 2.64% Darmanitan 43 2.53% Alakazam 43 2.53% Haxorus 42 2.47% Skarmory 41 2.41% Typhlosion 41 2.41% Wobbuffet 30 1.76% Plus: Bisharp, Breloom, Gigalith, Hippowdon, Jellicent, Lanturn, Manectric, Slowking, Crobat, Mamoswine, Abomasnow, Kabutops... Any thoughts? OrangeManiac 1 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said: Also, here are some other pokemon worth considering for the rankings that didn't make the usage cut Aerodactyl 47 2.76% Dusclops 45 2.64% Darmanitan 43 2.53% Alakazam 43 2.53% Haxorus 42 2.47% Skarmory 41 2.41% Typhlosion 41 2.41% Wobbuffet 30 1.76% Plus: Bisharp, Breloom, Gigalith, Hippowdon, Jellicent, Lanturn, Manectric, Slowking, Crobat, Mamoswine, Abomasnow, Kabutops... Any thoughts? Well obviously I need to bring up my boi Gigalith immediately. I personally think it's B tier but at the very least it's C. The reason is that there are some cases where Gigalith is a better choice over Tyranitar but it depends how often and that determines which of those two ranks it fits most. Gigalith has three situational upsides over Tyranitar: Lack of 4x Fight-weakness, Wide Guard and slow speed. Slow speed makes it really good in Trick Room teams. It is infact only undersped by Torkoal and Escavalier. Tyranitar has harder time becoming the slowest mon in Trick Room. 4x Fight weakness makes also Tyranitar difficult to play or at the very least it needs to give up its item slot for Chople Berry, which only has 1 time use as well. Also Wide Guard is a strong move and improve the matchup vs. Garchomp teams a lot. This is why I'd argue its enough to warrant a B ranking but as amongst the only Gigalith players I think it's a strong claim. Bisharp is really underrated. Supported by Blastoise's Follow Me, it can get out of hand after one Swords Dance quite fast. Garchomp nerfed it a lot as it has AOE move to bypass Blastoise support but it's still a powerful Pokemon nevertheless. B-/B territory imo. Jellicent: Probably the most underrated Pokemon in PokeMMO Doubles Community. It offers an extremely strong speed control for balance teams with Trick Room. Water Spout is also very scary when set up in correct speed. B mon at least. Kabutops: B, maybe even C. Only because rain is strong. Being physical is rather annoyance than benefit and its not better than Ludicolo and Kingdra in lots of matchups. But rain is strong so Kabutops shines there as well. Dusclops is probably also C at the very least. The most reliable Trick Room setter after Porygon2, although very passive on the field. Manectric: C. Best friend of Gyarados. Slowking: B-/C. Reliable Trick Room setter with great movepool. Rest of them I haven't seen perform well enough to argue anything higher than D. Breloom has potential but sleep clause nerfs it so much. Rakhmaninov and redbluegreen 2 Link to comment
iJulian Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 (edited) I would make my own arguments but since the thread has just been made and that'd be too much work so In the meantime I will just respond to those made by others, starting with orange. 56 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: But I just have to point out that creating the viability rankings straight from usage in descending order isn't really a good way to create conversation. Sure, when you are suggesting something unconventional to high rankings you have to make a pretty compelling argument to convince people but if your argument can be immediately brushed off with arguments that rely on usage, the whole thread turns very non-creative and bland. I'd recommend to take the usage statistics out completely from the rankings. The usage can be brought up to strengthen your argument but having the original post list them make it seem like usage play a bigger part in this discussion than it should. Totally agreed. But I'd say usage works as a starting point, not as an argument from any point forward. 56 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Togekiss - S tier mon. I don't think it cannot be listed as anything else. Even if you take away its enormous support movepool, it's still a strong Pokemon. You could use it as an offensive piece in your team and it still would perform great. But when you add the fact it can Follow Me and Helping Hand, it's so difficult and unpredictable to play against so that to put it simply Togekiss can be slapped to any kind of team and perform a good role there. Agreed. twave, tailwind, scarf are some other things that you didnt mention. It's a great mon, I think half my teams have toge on them 56 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Garchomp - S/A+. With the support of Togekiss, Garchomp can get an easy Swords Dance off and just start spamming it from there. Sure, it has to be scared of Wide Guard but it has Dragon Claw to hit every Wide Guard user with enormous power. Most complete sweeper in Doubles. S tier definitelly. in our current meta I'd argue it's even better than ttar (which I would actually drop from the S tier). Draco meteor sets are a bit unexplored I feel. This thing can run every item and get a lot of work done (orb, yache, iappapa, lefties, sitrus, lum) 56 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Blastoise - A+. Not many Pokemon have the best two moves in Doubles at once: Follow Me and Fake Out. When you add to the fact said Pokemon is a bulky Water-type, you have the tools for great support Pokemon already. Blastoise's stats are very solid and offensively pressure Dragons with with Icy Wind/Ice Beam which is a really underappreciated trait in current meta. Probably the best example of a Pokemon that is overlooked by usage statistics but probably has to do with the fact that many people who play Doubles don't play "Doubles minded" and rather just use Pokemon that are strong in Singles OU. I used to be a toise spammer, now I have been finding myself not being able to reliably fit it in as many teams anymore. it probably got hurt the hardest from the introduction of the rotom forms (though it did get a boost in checking chomp with its ice moves) Toge + Top outclasses every time. I would put it in A- or A at best. 56 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Kingdra - S/A+. Kingdra has two powerful sets. Sure, you can often make an educated guess whether Kingdra is a Focus Energy spammer or a rain sweeper but both at those roles Kingdra is tremendously powerful. Focus Energy's set power comes from great supporters like Togekiss and Blastoise, sure, but Kingdra is just so much better than most set up sweepers with such a simple set up move. Rain Kingdra is also insane and rain undoubtedly is the strongest weather in Doubles, at least in a vacuum. I would actually keep kingdra at A or even drop it to A-. I feel it's a bit overrated and people are just bad at playing vs it. I do believe It has a lot of unexplored potential that could make it way stronger (surf sets with croak/jelli/gastro and focus energy builds without toge+toise cores that imo, are outdated thanks to rotom). I also believe sun to be slightly stronger than rain (it definetely used to be), but right now I couldnt really say for sure, rain got a bunch of new toys and counters at the same time (gastrodon, toxicroak, rotoms, chomp) 56 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Arcanine - B. A bit controversial opinion but PokeMMO Doubles might be the most hostile metagame Arcanine has ever had. Intimidate isnt as strong in MMO Doubles as you would think and basically the whole metagame hits Arcanine with huge power. Agreed it's not an A tier pokemon this metagame is very rough to it. With the right build it can be quite strong though. 56 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Gengar - Also hate to say but I think it's a B mon. Glass cannons are difficult to play in Doubles. Gengar doesn't OHKO a lot of things and it gets OHKOd by half of the viable metagame. I think Gengar's main upside is being a fast Taunter that cannot be Fake Out, which is an enormously powerful trait but in the long run it's just difficult to play. I disagree on this one. I feel gengar is one of the strongest leads and it helps patching out a lot of bad matchups in my own builds, It's actually becoming one of my favorite mons to run in weatherless/balance teams, maybe I could see A- not definitely not B 56 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Ludicolo - A. I think Ludicolo is better than people give it credit for. It doesn't even need to be in a rain team but obviously performs there best. Fake Out can buy precious turns, especially against Trick Room which rain struggles against. Agreed. though I would say A-. It's super strong but I feel it suffers real badly from 4mmss you want pump, gigadrain, icebeam, focus blast, fake out and protect 20 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Bisharp is really underrated. Supported by Blastoise's Follow Me, it can get out of hand after one Swords Dance quite fast. Garchomp nerfed it a lot as it has AOE move to bypass Blastoise support but it's still a powerful Pokemon nevertheless. B-/B territory imo. Jellicent: Probably the most underrated Pokemon in PokeMMO Doubles Community. It offers an extremely strong speed control for balance teams with Trick Room. Water Spout is also very scary when set up in correct speed. B mon at least. Kabutops: B, maybe even C. Only because rain is strong. Being physical is rather annoyance than benefit and its not better than Ludicolo and Kingdra in lots of matchups. But rain is strong so Kabutops shines there as well. Dusclops is probably also C at the very least. The most reliable Trick Room setter after Porygon2, although very passive on the field. Manectric: C. Best friend of Gyarados. Slowking: B-/C. Reliable Trick Room setter with great movepool. Rest of them I haven't seen perform well enough to argue anything higher than D. Breloom has potential but sleep clause nerfs it so much. I Agree on Bisharp, Kabutops and Manectric and Dusclops kinda (Id say B-) I can't think of a single reason why I would want to run slowking when reuniclus exists. Breloom is actually good, B tier at least imo. And just acouple more early thoughts; Wash is not the best rotom form in our meta. Jolteon is not B tier (should be lower). Aboma is giga underrated. the A tier can be shuffled a lot, i.e, it could be easy to argue that volc is better than hydreigh. Edited May 26, 2020 by iJulian redbluegreen, OrangeManiac, Rakhmaninov and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 43 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: But I just have to point out that creating the viability rankings straight from usage in descending order isn't really a good way to create conversation. Sure, when you are suggesting something unconventional to high rankings you have to make a pretty compelling argument to convince people but if your argument can be immediately brushed off with arguments that rely on usage, the whole thread turns very non-creative and bland. I'd recommend to take the usage statistics out completely from the rankings. The usage can be brought up to strengthen your argument but having the original post list them make it seem like usage play a bigger part in this discussion than it should. Yes I agree totally! As i said, "The rankings that follow have been initially constructed on a purely quantitative basis. Discussion of these rankings below in the comments is encouraged, as a qualitative assessment of these figures is necessary to determine their validity." Usage statistics will be removed as soon as the new updates are made. 7 minutes ago, iJulian said: I used to be a toise spammer, now I have been finding myself not being able to reliably fit it in as many teams anymore. it probably got hurt the hardest from the introduction of the rotom forms (though it did get a boost in checking chomp with its ice moves) Toge + Top outclasses every time. I would put it in A- or A at best. Putting Blastoise in A Tier as a compromise 9 minutes ago, iJulian said: I would actually keep kingdra at A or even drop it to A-. I feel it's a bit overrated and people are just bad at playing vs it. I do believe It has a lot of unexplored potential that could make it way stronger (surf sets with croak/jelli/gastro and focus energy builds without toge+toise cores that imo, are outdated thanks to rotom). I also believe sun to be slightly stronger than rain (it definetely used to be), but right now I couldnt really say for sure, rain got a bunch of new toys and counters at the same time (gastrodon, toxicroak, rotoms, chomp) Will move to A+ as a compromise, or until more arguments are put forward for it to move elsewhere. 11 minutes ago, iJulian said: I disagree on this one. I feel gengar is one of the strongest leads and it helps patching out a lot of bad matchups in my own builds, It's actually becoming one of my favorite mons to run in weatherless/balance teams, maybe I could see A- not definitely not B Moving to A- Tier until further discussion 13 minutes ago, iJulian said: Agreed. though I would say A-. It's super strong but I feel it suffers real badly from 4mmss you want pump, gigadrain, icebeam, focus blast, fake out and protect Moving to A- until further discussion 14 minutes ago, iJulian said: And just two more early thoughts; Jolteon is not B tier (should be lower). the A tier can be shuffled a lot, i.e, it could be easy to argue that volc is better than hydreigh. I agree on Jolteon, but will need more elaboration if it warrants a tier shift. Same for volcarona and hydreigon Movements for further discussion: Gengar Ludicolo Jolteon Volcarona Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 21 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Well obviously I need to bring up my boi Gigalith immediately. I personally think it's B tier but at the very least it's C. The reason is that there are some cases where Gigalith is a better choice over Tyranitar but it depends how often and that determines which of those two ranks it fits most. Gigalith has three situational upsides over Tyranitar: Lack of 4x Fight-weakness, Wide Guard and slow speed. Slow speed makes it really good in Trick Room teams. It is infact only undersped by Torkoal and Escavalier. Tyranitar has harder time becoming the slowest mon in Trick Room. 4x Fight weakness makes also Tyranitar difficult to play or at the very least it needs to give up its item slot for Chople Berry, which only has 1 time use as well. Also Wide Guard is a strong move and improve the matchup vs. Garchomp teams a lot. This is why I'd argue its enough to warrant a B ranking but as amongst the only Gigalith players I think it's a strong claim. Bisharp is really underrated. Supported by Blastoise's Follow Me, it can get out of hand after one Swords Dance quite fast. Garchomp nerfed it a lot as it has AOE move to bypass Blastoise support but it's still a powerful Pokemon nevertheless. B-/B territory imo. Jellicent: Probably the most underrated Pokemon in PokeMMO Doubles Community. It offers an extremely strong speed control for balance teams with Trick Room. Water Spout is also very scary when set up in correct speed. B mon at least. Kabutops: B, maybe even C. Only because rain is strong. Being physical is rather annoyance than benefit and its not better than Ludicolo and Kingdra in lots of matchups. But rain is strong so Kabutops shines there as well. Dusclops is probably also C at the very least. The most reliable Trick Room setter after Porygon2, although very passive on the field. Manectric: C. Best friend of Gyarados. Slowking: B-/C. Reliable Trick Room setter with great movepool. Rest of them I haven't seen perform well enough to argue anything higher than D. Breloom has potential but sleep clause nerfs it so much. Gigalith: C Tier until further discussion Bisharp: C Tier " " Jellicent: B Tier " " Kabutops: C Tier Dusclops: C Tier Manectric: C Tier Slowking: C Tier Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 4 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said: Yes I agree totally! As i said, "The rankings that follow have been initially constructed on a purely quantitative basis. Discussion of these rankings below in the comments is encouraged, as a qualitative assessment of these figures is necessary to determine their validity." Usage statistics will be removed as soon as the new updates are made. Yeah I know :) I just meant that already in this point of the discussion I would take the usage numbers off to encourage people to discuss things, but if you're as active of keeping up the conversation as you're now and are already on your way to refine the rankings based on the incoming contribution then that's no problem of course. Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
iJulian Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said: Same for volcarona and hydreigon This was just a random example used to argue that a lot of things are semi-interchangeable as the A and A- tiers currently stand (and the lack of A+) 18 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said: Jolteon It's main niche IMO is being able to be a secondary rain set up in rain teams (using a fast dance). Otherwise every rotom form outclasses it. 15 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said: Gigalith: C Tier until further discussion Bisharp: C Tier " " Gigalith B- it is good and strong but its main downside is that it indirectly competes with torkoal and abomasnow as a trick room weather inducer. (Both of which are ranked too low imo. Tork is B+ or A- and Aboma is at the very least B-) I'd Bisharp B and I totally agree with Orange's arguments for that. Rotom-H, Rotom-M, cofag, lili and bronzong are all too low (I'd place them B, A, B-, B and B+ respectivelly) Arguments for some of those ^ lili: after you and sleep powder are amazing in a pokemon with clorophyll, grass gem leaf storm is very strong nuke, it also ignores amoongus' redirections and destroys blastoise. bronzong is capable of single handedly dealing with sand teams, thus making it an amazing pokemon to use to patch weaknesses in teambuilding (similar to gengar) not to mention its trick room and screen capabilities Edited May 26, 2020 by iJulian redbluegreen and Rakhmaninov 2 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, iJulian said: This was just a random example used to argue that a lot of things are semi-interchangeable as the A and A- tiers currently stand (and the lack of A+) It's main niche IMO is being able to be a secondary rain set up in rain teams (using a fast dance). Otherwise every rotom form outclasses it. Gigalith B- it is good and strong but its main downside is that it indirectly competes with torkoal and abomasnow as a trick room weather inducer. (Both of which are ranked too low imo. Tork is B+ or A- and Aboma is at the very least B-) I'd Bisharp B and I totally agree with Orange's arguments for that. Jolteon: C Tier Gigalith: B Tier (Until B+/- Tiers are made) Abomasnow: B Tier Bisharp: B Tier Link to comment
iJulian Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 1 minute ago, Rakhmaninov said: Jolteon: C Tier Gigalith: B Tier (Until B+/- Tiers are made) Abomasnow: B Tier Bisharp: B Tier added arguments for bronzong and liligant in my post above (edited) Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
SMB Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 Hi, first time posting here. So like 1-2 weeks ago a friend told me about this metagame and since I'm always excited to try out new doubles metagames and this one seemed interesting I've been practicing and quite enjoying it. Since I couldn't find a viability ranking, I made my own one based on the experience I have playing BW doubles metagames and the few practice games I could play which I will submit later on the post. First of all I'd like to suggest a ranking system based on numbers instead of letters. The main reason is because these kind of letters VR are usually a mess and many bad and almost unviable stuff would end up ranked. A rank system based on numbers would make the VR easier to maintain and would make it look cleaner. This is the VR I came up with: TIER 1 Togekiss Garchomp TIER 2 Hitmontop Rotom-Wash Blastoise Kingdra Metagross Scizor Volcarona Ferrothorn TIER 3 Jellicent Reuniclus Conkeldurr Excadrill Tyranitar Milotic Hydreigon Rotom-heat Salamence Amoonguss TIER 4 Gengar Bronzong Abomasnow Pelipper Gastrodon Infernape Jolteon Ludicolo Torkoal Arcanine Chandelure Whimsicott Marowak Porygon2 TIER 5 Weavile Hariyama Bisharp Gyarados Mamoswine Rotom-mow Lilligant Breloom Aerodactyl Cofagrigus Eelektross Gigalith Krookodile Mandibuzz Mienshao Rhyperior Vileplume Staraptor Of course, although i think it's pretty accurate, take it with a grint of salt because I barely have experience on this metagame, but I think this might be a good point to start discussion from since I didn't care about usage when i made it (ranking pokemons based on usages isn't good :x). It is following a number ranking system and pokemon on the same tier don't follow any order. Great to see this thread was started! Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 4 minutes ago, SMB said: Hi, first time posting here. So like 1-2 weeks ago a friend told me about this metagame and since I'm always excited to try out new doubles metagames and this one seemed interesting I've been practicing and quite enjoying it. Since I couldn't find a viability ranking, I made my own one based on the experience I have playing BW doubles metagames and the few practice games I could play which I will submit later on the post. First of all I'd like to suggest a ranking system based on numbers instead of letters. The main reason is because these kind of letters VR are usually a mess and many bad and almost unviable stuff would end up ranked. A rank system based on numbers would make the VR easier to maintain and would make it look cleaner. This is the VR I came up with: TIER 1 Togekiss Garchomp TIER 2 Hitmontop Rotom-Wash Blastoise Kingdra Metagross Scizor Volcarona Ferrothorn TIER 3 Jellicent Reuniclus Conkeldurr Excadrill Tyranitar Milotic Hydreigon Rotom-heat Salamence Amoonguss TIER 4 Gengar Bronzong Abomasnow Pelipper Gastrodon Infernape Jolteon Ludicolo Torkoal Arcanine Chandelure Whimsicott Marowak Porygon2 TIER 5 Weavile Hariyama Bisharp Gyarados Mamoswine Rotom-mow Lilligant Breloom Aerodactyl Cofagrigus Eelektross Gigalith Krookodile Mandibuzz Mienshao Rhyperior Vileplume Staraptor Of course, although i think it's pretty accurate, take it with a grint of salt because I barely have experience on this metagame, but I think this might be a good point to start discussion from since I didn't care about usage when i made it (ranking pokemons based on usages isn't good :x). It is following a number ranking system and pokemon on the same tier don't follow any order. Great to see this thread was started! Thank you for your suggestions, I'll take them into consideration! The letters system (S/A/A- etc...) follows the same template as other viability rankings on this site (OU/UU etc) so it likely won't be changed due to continuity. You're more than welcome to make the same suggestion on the other viability rankings! :) Please could you provide detailed reasoning for which pokemon you would like to see change their current positions? Thanks :) SMB and TohnR 2 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 @OrangeManiac, @iJulian any suggestions for sample cores? The plan behind this is so that newer players can use strategies which are appropriate for the doubles format, rather than trying to transfer across singles strategies that don't work as well. Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 40 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said: @OrangeManiac, @iJulian any suggestions for sample cores? The plan behind this is so that newer players can use strategies which are appropriate for the doubles format, rather than trying to transfer across singles strategies that don't work as well. Togekiss + Garchomp (+ maybe Rotom-Wash. It's common partner but probably would just leave it as TogeChomp) Togekiss + Kingdra Other Pokemon even in higher rankings are pretty free-rollers and can be used in lots of different teams and doesn't really have a core worth mentioning. Obviously Togekiss, Garchomp and Kingdra fit all kinds of teams but Togekiss complements these set-ups sweepers well which are pretty meta-defining. Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
Zigh Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, iJulian said: Rotom-H, Rotom-M, cofag, lili and bronzong are all too low (I'd place them B, A, B-, B and B+ respectivelly) lili: after you and sleep powder are amazing in a pokemon with clorophyll, grass gem leaf storm is very strong nuke, it also ignores amoongus' redirections and destroys blastoise. I know you like sun teams a lot, but lilligant isnt B+. Sure, it does a great job while in sun, but once that is gone, is most of the time a wasted slot. If it runs grass gem LStorm, it won't be a reliable sleep user, taking out one of its most important traits, rendering it useless. On the other side, if it carries wide lens, leaf storm is not that great since it wont even ko calm blastoise, + is useless after 1 use. Dies to pretty much everything and its archetype is pretty easy to counter with little knowledge, plus its set is too limited. For those reasons I would leave it as B or even B-. Edited May 26, 2020 by Zigh Rakhmaninov and aZaz07 2 Link to comment
redbluegreen Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 (edited) Saw this thread and thought I would offer my input as someone who has been a very prominent figure in the pokemmo doubles metagame since 2015. On 5/26/2020 at 10:20 AM, OrangeManiac said: Togekiss - S tier mon. I don't think it cannot be listed as anything else. Garchomp - S/A+. With the support of Togekiss, Garchomp can get an easy Swords Dance off and just start spamming it from there. Sure, it has to be scared of Wide Guard but it has Dragon Claw to hit every Wide Guard user with enormous power. Most complete sweeper in Doubles. Blastoise - A+. Not many Pokemon have the best two moves in Doubles at once: Follow Me and Fake Out. Kingdra - S/A+. Kingdra has two powerful sets. Arcanine - B. A bit controversial opinion but PokeMMO Doubles might be the most hostile metagame Arcanine has ever had. Intimidate isnt as strong in MMO Doubles as you would think and basically the whole metagame hits Arcanine with huge power. Snarling is a very powerful and overlooked trait Arcanine has, I gotta give him that. Gengar - Also hate to say but I think it's a B mon. Glass cannons are difficult to play in Doubles. Gengar doesn't OHKO a lot of things and it gets OHKOd by half of the viable metagame. I think Gengar's main upside is being a fast Taunter that cannot be Fake Out, which is an enormously powerful trait but in the long run it's just difficult to play. Ludicolo - A. I think Ludicolo is better than people give it credit for. It doesn't even need to be in a rain team but obviously performs there best. Fake Out can buy precious turns, especially against Trick Room which rain struggles against. Somewhat disagree with Togekiss. While it is certainly one of the strongest mons in the current meta it has a big weakness in which it is a follow me abuser that is weak to a lot of most common and best spread moves (Rotom Discharge, Abomasnow Blizzard & Tyranitar Rock Slide) making it significantly easier to play around than it was pre sinnoh. Solid A+ (could still maybe be S but it's nowhere near as clear as some people make it out to be.) Agree on A+/S for Chomp. Leaning more towards A+ though. Since it really relies on follow me support to be that effective and even with follow me it gets far too threatened by icy wind/blizzards to sweep reliably. Kingdra, I agree with most of what Julian said. Imo critdra is massively overrated and feels more like a cheesey gimmick than anything. It's typically ran with double follow me support and even then it's not that difficult to chip it down with spread moves, not to mention the numerous support moves that help to shut down this tactic that for some reason people aren't utilising. Rain kingdra still good though A- Blastoise I have mixed feelings about. While it is really good in most cases it just gets outclassed by togekiss so struggles to find team slots, and having it on the same team as togekiss is kinda trolling. That being said I think there are a few common Togekiss pairings that should probably be used by Blastoise instead and so I wouldn't mind putting it kinda high. B+/A- Pretty much agree on Arca and Gengar and don't think either opinion is that controversial. Maybe it's just me but I've always found ludi very underwhelming. It suffers badly from 4MSS and doesn't really offer much to a rain team other than dealing with Rotom-W and Gastro which IMO other mons do better. I would rate it C+ or B. But it seems like everyone else is valuing it higher. On 5/26/2020 at 10:42 AM, Rakhmaninov said: Also, here are some other pokemon worth considering for the rankings that didn't make the usage cut Aerodactyl 47 2.76% Dusclops 45 2.64% Darmanitan 43 2.53% Alakazam 43 2.53% Haxorus 42 2.47% Skarmory 41 2.41% Typhlosion 41 2.41% Wobbuffet 30 1.76% Plus: Bisharp, Breloom, Gigalith, Hippowdon, Jellicent, Lanturn, Manectric, Slowking, Crobat, Mamoswine, Abomasnow, Kabutops... Any thoughts? Out of the mons mentioned above: Aero is a really solid support mon that also helps deal with togekiss well. Solid C+ Dusclops, despite what it's ability is called puts out no pressure and is complete taunt bait. It does some things well (not die and set up TR) but does everything else terribly. Imo you would need to add a D rank to even include it on the list. Bisharp as others have mentioned is solid and has some cool uses. Could fit into C or B Breloom like Julian said is actually good. It has a lot of uses. It has a lot of really good matchups vs a lot of the top mons and the ones that it doesn't it can usually sleep especially if it has follow me support. It is one of the best checks against Rotom Wash and Mow, has a really good matchup into sand, disrupts TR teams with spore and completely shuts down Gyarados and Gastrodon as well as being a status absorber. B at a minimum Gigalith is a monster and is criminally underutilised. Incredibly bulky TR sweeper + weather setter and has access to some cool support moves, also abuses the doubles damage bug well. B at a minimum Jellicent Pretty much agree with Orange. Solid B Manectric is pretty bad tbh. But it's one of the only lightning rod users we have. Could go into C Slowking as Julian stated isn't really that useful and is generally a worse reuniclus. It's main advantage is being able to handle metagross (which is often a very difficult mon for TR to deal with) significantly better. C Crobat is mostly just a worse Aero but deals with Hitmontop better so it has it's niche. C Kabutops agree with others it's probably a C Abomasnow is fucking insane and has some really good matchups against some of the other top mons. Really should be A- imo. The other ones that I haven't talked about are all really bad On 5/26/2020 at 11:26 AM, iJulian said: Rotom-H, Rotom-M are all too low 100%. People are really sleeping on these. On 5/26/2020 at 11:56 AM, SMB said: TIER 2 Scizor TIER 4 Marowak TIER 5 Gyarados Rotom-mow Lilligant Breloom Aerodactyl Cofagrigus Gigalith Can't say I've ever played BW doubles so there is likely some reasoning behind these. But from a purely Pokemmo metagame perspective this looks so very wrong. On 5/26/2020 at 1:25 PM, Rakhmaninov said: @OrangeManiac, @iJulian any suggestions for sample cores? The plan behind this is so that newer players can use strategies which are appropriate for the doubles format, rather than trying to transfer across singles strategies that don't work as well. As Orange mentioned a Kingdra core is probably worth mentioning because it's so used. Probably best to limit it to just togekiss since the double follow me cores are all pretty flawed in their own way and new players won't know how to build around them. Imo you shouldn't include Chomp + Togekiss without also including something that covers the ice weakness. Most likely Rotom-W as Orange mentioned or Metagross You could also include Discharge Rotom-W + RS Chomp with or without togekiss as a Para Flinch core. I'll link below my own viability rankings that I made a couple of months back if anyone wants to compare: (Was very torn in S ranks and honestly any of Rotom-W, Toge, Top, or Chomp could be put in S) Spoiler S Rotom-Wash, Garchomp A+ Togekiss, Hitmontop, Tyranitar, Reuniclus, Metagross A Rotom-Mow, Hydreigon, Volcarona, Chandelure A- Kingdra, Excadrill, Gastrodon, Abomasnow, Salamence, Rotom-Heat B+ Conkeldurr, Gyarados, Blastoise, Pelipper, Amoonguss, Snorlax, Breloom, Gengar, Porygon2 B Arcanine, Scizor, Milotic, Ferrothorn, Cofagrigus, Torkoal, Lillgant, Bronzong, Toxicroak, Gigalith, Jellicent, Aerodactyl C+ Ludicolo, Kabutops, Empoleon, Tentacruel, Exeggutor, Porygon-Z, Serperior, Bisharp, Rhyperior, Infernape, Crobat C Jolteon, Hariyama, Whimsicott, Dragonite, Magnezone, Swampert, Electabuzz, Starmie, Rotom-Frost, Slowking D+ Mienshao, Golduck, Kangaskhan, Zoroark, Staraptor, Electrode, Weavile, Gliscor, Chansey, Manectric, Rampardos, Blissey, Flygon, Rhydon, Parasect, Gallade, Dusclops D Lanturn, Cloyster, Skarmory, Charizard, Darmanitan, Electivire, Mandibuzz, Lapras, Mamoswine, Alakazam, Marowak, Roserade, Vaniluxe, Wobbuffet, Dusknoir, Smeargle, Scrafty, Hippowdon, Haxorus, Rotom-Fan, Arbok Closing thoughts: Jolteon is trash, Wide lens is a meme. Edited June 22, 2020 by redbluegreen because I can OrangeManiac and Rakhmaninov 2 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted May 27, 2020 Author Share Posted May 27, 2020 16 hours ago, redbluegreen said: Saw this thread and thought I would offer my input as someone who has been a very prominent figure in the pokemmo doubles metagame since 2015. Somewhat disagree with Togekiss. While it is certainly one of the strongest mons in the current meta it has a big weakness in which it is a follow me abuser that is weak to a lot of most common and best spread moves (Rotom Discharge, Abomasnow Blizzard & Tyranitar Rock Slide) making it significantly easier to play around than it was pre sinnoh. Solid A+ (could still maybe be S but it's nowhere near as clear as some people make it out to be.) Agree on A+/S for Chomp. Leaning more towards A+ though. Since it really relies on follow me support to be that effective and even with follow me it gets far too threatened by icy wind/blizzards to sweep reliably. Kingdra, I agree with most of what Julian said. Imo critdra is massively overrated and feels more like a cheesey gimmick than anything. It's typically ran with double follow me support and even then it's not that difficult to chip it down with spread moves, not to mention the numerous support moves that help to shut down this tactic that for some reason people aren't utilising. Rain kingdra still good though A- Blastoise I have mixed feelings about. While it is really good in most cases it just gets outclassed by togekiss so struggles to find team slots, and having it on the same team as togekiss is kinda trolling. That being said I think there are a few common Togekiss pairings that should probably be used by Blastoise instead and so I wouldn't mind putting it kinda high. B+/A- Pretty much agree on Arca and Gengar and don't think either opinion is that controversial. Maybe it's just me but I've always found ludi very underwhelming. It suffers badly from 4MSS and doesn't really offer much to a rain team other than dealing with Rotom-W and Gastro which IMO other mons do better. I would rate it C+ or B. But it seems like everyone else is valuing it higher. Out of the mons mentioned above: Aero is a really solid support mon that also helps deal with togekiss well. Solid C+ Dusclops, despite what it's ability is called puts out no pressure and is complete taunt bait. It does some things well (not die and set up TR) but does everything else terribly. Imo you would need to add a D rank to even include it on the list. Bisharp as others have mentioned is solid and has some cool uses. Could fit into C or B Breloom like Julian said is actually good. It has a lot of uses. It has a lot of really good matchups vs a lot of the top mons and the ones that it doesn't it can usually sleep especially if it has follow me support. It is one of the best checks against Rotom Wash and Mow, has a really good matchup into sand, disrupts TR teams with spore and completely shuts down Gyarados and Gastrodon as well as being a status absorber. B at a minimum Gigalith is a monster and is criminally underutilised. Incredibly bulky TR sweeper + weather setter and has access to some cool support moves, also abuses the doubles damage bug well. B at a minimum Jellicent Pretty much agree with Orange. Solid B Manectric is pretty bad tbh. But it's one of the only lightning rod users we have. Could go into C Slowking as Julian stated isn't really that useful and is generally a worse reuniclus. It's main advantage is being able to handle metagross (which is often a very difficult mon for TR to deal with) significantly better. C Crobat is mostly just a worse Aero but deals with Hitmontop better so it has it's niche. C Kabutops agree with others it's probably a C Abomasnow is fucking insane and has some really good matchups against some of the other top mons. Really should be A- imo. The other ones that I haven't talked about are all really bad 100%. People are really sleeping on these. Can't say I've ever played BW doubles so there is likely some reasoning behind these. But from a purely Pokemmo metagame perspective this looks so very wrong. As Orange mentioned a Kingdra core is probably worth mentioning because it's so used. Probably best to limit it to just togekiss since the double follow me cores are all pretty flawed in their own way and new players won't know how to build around them. Imo you shouldn't include Chomp + Togekiss without also including something that covers the ice weakness. Most likely Rotom-W as Orange mentioned or Metagross You could also include Discharge Rotom-W + RS Chomp with or without togekiss as a Para Flinch core. I'll link below my own viability rankings that I made a couple of months back if anyone wants to compare: (Was very torn in S ranks and honestly any of Rotom-W, Toge, Top, or Chomp could be put in S) Hide contents S Rotom-Wash, Garchomp A+ Togekiss, Hitmontop, Tyranitar, Reuniclus, Metagross A Rotom-Mow, Hydreigon, Volcarona, Chandelure A- Kingdra, Excadrill, Gastrodon, Abomasnow, Salamence, Rotom-Heat B+ Conkeldurr, Gyarados, Blastoise, Pelipper, Amoonguss, Snorlax, Breloom, Gengar, Porygon2 B Arcanine, Scizor, Milotic, Ferrothorn, Cofagrigus, Torkoal, Lillgant, Bronzong, Toxicroak, Gigalith, Jellicent C+ Ludicolo, Kabutops, Empoleon, Tentacruel, Exeggutor, Porygon-Z, Serperior, Bisharp, Aerodactyl, Rhyperior C Jolteon, Hariyama, Whimsicott, Dragonite, Magnezone, Swampert, Electabuzz, Infernape, Starmie, Rotom-Frost, Slowking, Crobat D+ Mienshao, Golduck, Kangaskhan, Zoroark, Staraptor, Electrode, Weavile, Gliscor, Chansey, Manectric, Rampardos, Blissey, Flygon, Rhydon, Parasect, Gallade, Dusclops D Lanturn, Cloyster, Skarmory, Charizard, Darmanitan, Electivire, Mandibuzz, Lapras, Mamoswine, Alakazam, Marowak, Roserade, Vaniluxe, Wobbuffet, Dusknoir, Smeargle, Scrafty, Hippowdon, Haxorus, Rotom-Fan, Arbok Closing thoughts: Jolteon is trash, Wide lens is a meme. Fab response, thank you very much! Will be making some changes based on what is said here, as there is solid reasoning behind many suggestions made here. Togekiss/Garchomp: I don't think there is sufficient reason for these two to move down as of yet, as the general consensus is for these two to remain in S Tier Kingdra: A+ Tier -> A Tier, as per consensus Blastoise: Will remain A Tier until further discussion Ludicolo: B Tier (A- candidate if/when the tier is introduced) - Will add CritDra and TogeChomp cores Pokemon which I think warrant further discussion Ferrothorn Scizor Rotom (Mow) Rotom (Heat) Reuniclus (in 58.30% of teams from Community Combat Tournament Finals #185-190) Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 14 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said: Pokemon which I think warrant further discussion Ferrothorn Slightly passive but still useful Pokemon. Great to check rain and can often successfully stall late game for the win. One of the rare actually viable Stealth Rock users. Has a lot going for it, I think A is fair. 14 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said: Scizor A- is fair for Scizor. Slightly prone to Intimidate spam and thus difficult to use but a strong priority STAB move is an incredible asset in Doubles where you can hit first despite opponent's speed control. Great Reuniclus check. Has lots of difficult matchups though. 14 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said: Reuniclus (in 58.30% of teams from Community Combat Tournament Finals #185-190) A is fine. Extremely splashable and gives any team a solid Trick Room mode. Extremely powerful in Trick Room. Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 (edited) Alright, time to make some people sad again. Milotic for B instead of A-. Milotic's selling point is its respectable bulk and the move Recover, so it seems like a powerful staller. The problem for Milotic is that if Milotic's opponent wants it out of the field, it isn't that hard to do. Basically every offensive combo in Doubles can do more damage to Milotic than Milotic can heal with Recover. The only way to successfully stall against two attackers is Intimidate and preferably Snarl. By the definition of B tier Pokemon, Milotic fits these characteristics because it needs stat drop support to become unbreakable. Furthermore, when Milotic is on the field most often than not it is fairly passive. It mostly threatens with status with Scald and Toxic and threatens dragons with Ice move but it's not an offensive powerhouse. It doesn't perform in its offensive role any better than something like Blastoise, Gastrodon which can be characterized as similar bulky water types but with more overall utility imo. Also Flame Orb set in Doubles is just bad. It needs to keep spamming Recovers to stay alive so often it leaves it teammate in awkward 1v2 situations. And then to suggest some untiered mons: Clefable for C. The first and most important question is that why would anyone use Clefable over Togekiss. Seemingly you don't but at closer look, you might. It has two traits that situationally make it a better Follow Me Pokemon than Togekiss. Offensively it fits better in Trick Room teams due its slower speed stat, wider movepool and Magic Guard. With Life Orb and Magic Guard it can shoot off pretty powerful coverage moves without taking recoil. Trick Room teams can often take use of one redirection Pokemon to ensure Trick Room and Clefable performs at this role well. Also compared to Blastoise and Togekiss, it isn't weak to Electric-attacks so if that's a desired trait you can explore that as well. Also Madara made this thing a really unbreakable wall with Cosmic Power so with right team support it become a defensive juggernaut. Golduck for C. When Cloud Nine isn't disabled, removing weather effects is pretty handy. Especially strong to help Volcarona to OHKO Tyranitars/Gigaliths when Quiver Danced but it has other uses as well. Electabuzz for C. Another unexplored Follow Me Pokemon. With Eviolite it gets pretty respectable bulk and supports lots of set ups. Staraptor for C. Very pressurizing lead. Intimidate and the threat of Final Gambit can set up lots of powerful early game positions, whether it is to remover the sweeper's only counter and leave the other Intimidated. Also can be used to help with early game Trick Room. I guess these were the ones I wanted to talk about for now, cheers. Edited May 27, 2020 by OrangeManiac because I can Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
Rakhmaninov Posted May 27, 2020 Author Share Posted May 27, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, OrangeManiac said: Alright, time to make some people sad again. Milotic for B instead of A-. Milotic's selling point is its respectable bulk and the move Recover, so it seems like a powerful staller. The problem for Milotic is that if Milotic's opponent wants it out of the field, it isn't that hard to do. Basically every offensive combo in Doubles can do more damage to Milotic than Milotic can heal with Recover. The only way to successfully stall against two attackers is Intimidate and preferably Snarl. By the definition of B tier Pokemon, Milotic fits these characteristics because it needs stat drop support to become unbreakable. Furthermore, when Milotic is on the field most often than not it is fairly passive. It mostly threatens with status with Scald and Toxic and threatens dragons with Ice move but it's not an offensive powerhouse. It doesn't perform in its offensive role any better than something like Blastoise, Gastrodon which can be characterized as similar bulky water types but with more overall utility imo. Also Flame Orb set in Doubles is just bad. It needs to keep spamming Recovers to stay alive so often it leaves it teammate in awkward 1v2 situations. And then to suggest some untiered mons: Clefable for C. The first and most important question is that why would anyone use Clefable over Togekiss. Seemingly you don't but at closer look, you might. It has two traits that situationally make it a better Follow Me Pokemon than Togekiss. Offensively it fits better in Trick Room teams due its slower speed stat, wider movepool and Magic Guard. With Life Orb and Magic Guard it can shoot off pretty powerful coverage moves without taking recoil. Trick Room teams can often take use of one redirection Pokemon to ensure Trick Room and Clefable performs at this role well. Also compared to Blastoise and Togekiss, it isn't weak to Electric-attacks so if that's a desired trait you can explore that as well. Also Madara made this thing a really unbreakable wall with Cosmic Power so with right team support it become a defensive juggernaut. Golduck for C. When Cloud Nine isn't disabled, removing weather effects is pretty handy. Especially strong to help Volcarona to OHKO Tyranitars/Gigaliths when Quiver Danced but it has other uses as well. Electabuzz for C. Another unexplored Follow Me Pokemon. With Eviolite it gets pretty respectable bulk and supports lots of set ups. Staraptor for C. Very pressurizing lead. Intimidate and the threat of Final Gambit can set up lots of powerful early game positions, whether it is to remover the sweeper's only counter and leave the other Intimidated. Also can be used to help with early game Trick Room. I guess these were the ones I wanted to talk about for now, cheers. Will make those changes unless people disagree, thanks for another great response! :) Edited May 27, 2020 by Rakhmaninov Changes Made Link to comment
kloneman Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 Could we possibly add a controversial entry in Seismitoad? It's pretty decent in rain teams with it's Swift Swim ability, has decent bulk and is only weak to grass which makes it a good early rain dance setter in case you want to save Pelipper for later. Also has access to some decent multi-target moves in Muddy Water, Icy Wind and EQ. So I think with all this considered, it should be C tier in this list. Let me know if i'm wrong, i'm just going off the success i've had with it in battles. Rakhmaninov and OrangeManiac 2 Link to comment
Kamowanthere Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 On 5/26/2020 at 2:04 AM, Rakhmaninov said: Sand:++ Sludge Wave Gengar works really well with sand boosted Excadrill, since they can spam EQ + Sludge Wave together, also can use shadow ball to avoid wide guards. It finds a good place in sand teams in my opinion: Gliscor should can its place in B, it is pretty much slower and less attack Garchomp but very good ability to avoid intimidate meta pokemon, It can make really powerful duo with tailwind + follow me Togekiss and its stab attacks are checking each other's resistances Manectric to B, because it is really good electric type pokemon in doubles. With Lightningrod it can draw electric type moves and protect your pokemon which are weak to electric type moves (exception of discharge). HP Grass to take out Gastrodon or HP Ice to take out Dragons, volt switch, flamethrower to kill standart electric counters such as excadrill, ferrothorn. It also learns aoe discharge if you combine it with a ground type or pokemon with electric immunity, or wide guard pokemon. Rakhmaninov 1 Link to comment
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