Phase II; PokeMMO with IV physical/special split (Suspect testing Dragonite and Gyarados)

[lVlusay]

Sacky, Def drop from Crunch is 20%, or 1/5, same for waterfall flinch, rather than 1/10 of the moves you listed. How can we not discuss this? We are discussing gyarados ability to sweep and these things are part of it. If you are trying to kill gyarados with ice beam or flamethrower good luck. Slowbro and vaporeon don't get thunderbolt, so I don't even understand how your comment is relevant. As of slowbro I said it two times, but dont mind repeating it. Hp electric is rare and even if you have it, you cannot switch on dragon dancing gyarados with it as it only takes a minor damage to slowbro, or def drop with Crunch to 2 ohko it. How is it a reliable counter? Haven't seen any proofs yet. Look at the calcs again.

 

On top of that these calcs are made with jolly gyarados. What if it's adamant? Stop making yourself ridiculous people. All of those listed pokemon in damage calcs are not counters...The only reliable ones are vaporeon hp electric (rare and expensive), lapras and dnite (under testing). Salamence has more counters than gyarados, but it is noneless banned.

Edited January 25, 2015 by lVlusay

[BurntZebra]

>not even considering bulky breloom, are people bad or something

[Sacky]

Sacky, Def drop from Crunch is 20%, or 1/5, same for waterfall flinch, rather than 1/10 of the moves you listed. How can we not discuss this? We are discussing gyarados ability to sweep and these things are part of it. If you are trying to kill gyarados with ice beam or flamethrower good luck. Slowbro and vaporeon don't get thunderbolt, so I don't even understand how your comment is relevant. As of slowbro I said it two times, but dont mind repeating it. Hp electric is rare and even if you have it, you cannot switch on dragon dancing gyarados with it as it only takes a minor damage to slowbro, or def drop with Crunch to 2 ohko it. How is it a reliable counter? Haven't seen any proofs yet. Look at the calcs again.

 

On top of that these calcs are made with jolly gyarados. What if it's adamant? Stop making yourself ridiculous people. All of those listed pokemon in damage calcs are not counters...The only reliable ones are vaporeon hp electric (rare and expensive), lapras and dnite (under testing). Salamence has more counters than gyarados, but it is noneless banned.

my point is we never discuss a RNG based for make a balance discussion...if that were the case every move can hit whit critical...do you understand?

yea gyara can flinch whit waterfall, can drop def whit crunch but he can get drop sp def whit slow psy or get freeze whit ice beam...we going nowhere if we sart to discuss in RNG based IMO

 

 

edit: and the calcs is make whit jolly gyara cause adamant need 2 DD to outspeed jolteon and the 200 speed buddys

Edited January 25, 2015 by Sacky

[Shaniqualela]

As senile said, lapras doesn't counter gyarados because it gets stone edge (in gen 4, this is a gen 4 discussion thread btw if you haven't noticed)

Edited January 25, 2015 by cgaribaldi94

[lVlusay]

When gyarados starts dragon dancing, how do you even know if it's adamant or jolly? lol Will you bring your jolt or aerodactyl on it? What if you have non of these? I thought what we are discussing is whether gyarados is too op for this meta and it clearly is. You take only one part of my argument and leave out the rest. My point is there are so many ways gyarados can easily sweep. Flinch and def drop are only some of them. 20% is not just rng, it's a legitimate power. My other example was that it only take 1-2 spikes or minor damage to easily 2 ohko slowbro. In other words there are so many things that have to go wrong for gyarados not to kill slowbro and other "counters" and sweep the entire team.

 

Salamence and Tyranitar are already band and therefore there is a precedent to ban gyarados for the same reasons. Vaporeon, lapras and slowbro can come in on salamence take a hit and retaliate with ice beam the same way they can come into gyarados and use an electric move. But Salamence is still banned and there are good reasons for it. Tyranitar and mence were both banned because it is often very easy to sweep without doing much. Gyarados is in the same boat, there are things that can possibly stop it, but very often it is just too easy to go through an entire team without much effort.

[Robofiend]

Salamence and Tyranitar are already band and therefore there is a precedent to ban gyarados for the same reasons.

Salamence and Tyranitar are banned for being able to spam their way through the metagame unchecked, Gyara doesn't seem to do that.

 

Vaporeon, lapras and slowbro can come in on salamence take a hit and retaliate with ice beam the same way they can come into gyarados and use an electric move.

Lol, no they can't - all three are 3HKO'd by STAB Dclaw. Gyara can't use choice band as well (as Sal) because of its lower speed and thus relies on DD to boost its attack/speed. Because of this, players who use DD give Vap/Slowbro/Swampert a free switch and a chance to use a SE attack against it next turn. By contrast, Salamence can just spam Dclaw and then run away when they're up against a healthy wall.

 

But Salamence is still banned and there are good reasons for it. Tyranitar and mence were both banned because it is often very easy to sweep without doing much. Gyarados is in the same boat, there are things that can possibly stop it, but very often it is just too easy to go through an entire team without much effort.

This just isn't true. Gyarados has a stab that is well resisted and even absorbed by common physical walls. The usage statistics from yesterday are showing Gyara to be much less powerful/common than you're making it out to be. 

[ThinkNice]

 

Salamence and Tyranitar are already band and therefore there is a precedent to ban gyarados for the same reasons.

Salamence and Tyranitar are banned for being able to spam their way through the metagame unchecked, Gyara doesn't seem to do that.

 

Vaporeon, lapras and slowbro can come in on salamence take a hit and retaliate with ice beam the same way they can come into gyarados and use an electric move.

Lol, no they can't - all three are 3HKO'd by STAB Dclaw. Gyara can't use choice band as well (as Sal) because of its lower speed and thus relies on DD to boost its attack/speed. Because of this, players who use DD give Vap/Slowbro/Swampert a free switch and a chance to use a SE attack against it next turn. By contrast, Salamence can just spam Dclaw and then run away when they're up against a healthy wall.

 

But Salamence is still banned and there are good reasons for it. Tyranitar and mence were both banned because it is often very easy to sweep without doing much. Gyarados is in the same boat, there are things that can possibly stop it, but very often it is just too easy to go through an entire team without much effort.

This just isn't true. Gyarados has a stab that is well resisted and even absorbed by common physical walls. The usage statistics from yesterday are showing Gyara to be much less powerful/common than you're making it out to be. 

 

what usage stats?

[BurntZebra]

what usage stats?

super secret ones that were being discussed in TS yesterday

[Robofiend]

what usage stats?

 

Implying Noad didn't publicly announce she was collecting data yesterday during the tournament

[lVlusay]

That was exactly my point. Salamence 3ohkos thèse bulky watees, so they can take a hit and retaliate with Ice Beams. It's just a fact, I don't know why are you arguing over it. Friedrich gave us calcs with pokemons like machamp, metagross, porygon, slowbro which also take a hit and then can answer with an Electric move, but are in no way counters to gyarados. So I gave a similar example with salamene to make my point. Also I dont understand how does swampert get a free switch on a dd? Rock slide will only 3ohko. Slowbro doesnt get a free switch after 1-2 spikes or minor damage. Vaporeon only has a chance with hp electric. All the counters you are suggesting are a joke.

Edited January 26, 2015 by lVlusay

[ThinkNice]

That was exactly my point. Salamence 3ohkos thèse bulky watees, so they can take a hit and retaliate with Ice Beams. It's just a fact, I don't know why are you arguing over it. Friedrich gave us calcs with pokemons like machamp, metagross, porygon, slowbro which also take a hit and then can answer with an Electric move, but are in no way counters to gyarados. So I gave a similar example with salamene to make my point. Also I dont understand how does swampert get a free switch on a dd? Rock slide will only 3ohko. Slowbro doesnt get a free switch after 1-2 spikes or minor damage. Vaporeon only has a chance with hp electric. All the counters you are suggesting are a joke.

Salamence does not need a DD making it way more threatening. And if you would argue Gyarados doesn't need DD either and can go with CB than that is also false. Salamence's Dragon STAB is way more spammable than Water STAB which makes it way harder to play CB Gyarados correctly, not to mention the speed difference. Vaporeon running HP Electric is not unheard of, in gen IV it was even standard because Gyarados was just good. If SR are up it does not even need to run Elec it can run Roar. Metagross is a pretty solid check as it can come in a few times on Gyara that don't carry EQ. P2 fucks it up completely, even Skarmory can come in and Roar (again SR and no Taunt). Even if Gyara runs Taunt it either has to sacrifice EQ or Crunch which are both really important moves for him.

[lVlusay]

I have never said gyarados doesn't need dd. Actually everything I was saying is based on gyarados using dd and asking what can you actually switch on it? Salamence with choice band isn't scarier than dd gyarados. CB can't change the move, so you can always switch on something that resists a dragon move. Look at how people counter Dragonite. Bulky waters take the hit and hit back with ice beam. You can even heal. If you didn't make the right switch you can just do another switch because mence with cb cannot change a move. With gyarados it's much more problematic because it uses dd on the switch givng it cb power , +speed, and then chooses the appropriate move for you switch. Also I don't understand why would gyarados not have eq, 99% of those I met had it. Are you saying that everyone needs to get hp electric on their vaporeon and sowbro now? Did you see the new breeding? Skarmory gets trapped by magneton. Even if it doesn't, all it can do is take those +1 waterfalls (20% flinch) and roar. Sooner or later it will die. Switching slowbro (even with hp electric) or swampert on gyarados is a joke as I explained earlier. We are literally talking about a few pokemons that can possibly switch on gyarados here. How is it not ban worthy?

Edited January 26, 2015 by lVlusay

[fredrichnietze]

ok so i only glanced through the op so i forgot to add gen 4 moves (sorry thinknice) which ofc means stealth rocks, stone edge (rip lapras), headsmash, charge beam, discharge, thunder fang, and trick room (slowest poke goes first). and if you want talk rng lVlusay read this first http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

Edited January 26, 2015 by fredrichnietze

[lVlusay]

Can't open the link. But again, you are taking things out of context. I never said gyarados sweeps because of rng, it can just be part of it and make it easier. 20% is not a random rng, it's every fifth move... If we are talking about all the gen lV moves and abilities, then I am out. We should discuss it when they are implemented. They are not at right now, but problems do exist at this moment.

[ThinkNice]

I think thia guydoes not understand what Stealth Rocks is

[fredrichnietze]

Can't open the link.

fixed

 

Can't open the link. But again, you are taking things out of context. I never said gyarados sweeps because of rng, it can just be part of it and make it easier. 20% is not a random rng, it's every fifth move... If we are talking about all the gen lV moves and abilities, then I am out. We should discuss it when they are implemented. They are not at right now, but problems do exist at this moment.

again pls read the thread i linked about tier'ing policy's on rng and definitions. btw althou i am pretty sure we dont officially have pokemmo tier'ing definitions, this is what we use.

[lVlusay]

Thanks, good info. I know what Stealth Rock is, but gyarados with stealth rock in the game and without is completely different story. We don't have it yet. If this topic was only on gen IV, then my bad. But we should discuss gyarados with what we have right now as well.

 

The only reason why I calculate hax is because 20% is not a joke and makes it much easier to sweep to an already very strong pokemon. I wouldn't care that much if it was skarmory with 20% flinch chance with drill peck or steel wing. In terms of the calcs, let's do them right. If I remember correctly the gyarados chance to 2ohko slowbro was 1.6%. Now add 20% crunch def drop to that, that's 21.6%. If you consider 1-2 layers of spikes or just slowbro not at full hp, then it's more than 50%. And spikes is not just hax. In terms of hp electric vaporeon, as I already said, good luck getting one with the new breeding. And yes, you might have the money and ability to get one, but most of the server doesn't.

 

 And lastly, in terms of the definitions of "checks" and "counters", we can take the hax out. The results are still similar. Salamence has no less checks and counters than gyarados does. Or lets then bring salamence back and that's going to be one more gyarados counter. I am not obsessed with banning, I care about a balanced meta and consistency. So the decisions should be consistent to the decisions made before.

[axx]

Thanks, good info. I know what Stealth Rock is, but gyarados with stealth rock in the game and without is completely different story. We don't have it yet. If this topic was only on gen IV, then my bad. But we should discuss gyarados with what we have right now as well.

This is about a FUTURE metagame that we dont know if it is or is not going to happen, if you wish to discuss the current gyarados then go and do so in a different thread.

 

About the flinch part, it has been used only once as a valid argument, it was for ttar's rock slide, because that is a 30% chance, if you factor that, there is a 51% probability that you will get flinched in two turns, nothing compared to gyarados 36%

 

tl;dr no

[ThinkNice]

Sorry for the confusion IVI, but as said in the OP this discussion doedn't relate to our current metagame, just our future one. If you wish to discuss Gyarados you can make a thread named [Discussion] Gyarados and state your argument for or against a ban.

[DoubleJ]

Can I ask why we are suspect testing for Gen 4 when it doesn't apply to the PokeMMO meta? Are Gen 4 moves, abilities, and items being implemented soon or is this a just for shits thread that won't have any effect on PokeMMO OU?

[ThinkNice]

Can I ask why we are suspect testing for Gen 4 when it doesn't apply to the PokeMMO meta? Are Gen 4 moves, abilities, and items being implemented soon or is this a just for shits thread that won't have any effect on PokeMMO OU?

eventually(tm)

[DoubleJ]

eventually(tm)

 

Meh, focus on the here and now so we can get UU going, and maybe even NU. 

 

If we remove the Gen 4 additions we lack, couldn't we test suspects we have in game right now outside of official events? Like Dragonite and Gyarados for examples. 

[ThinkNice]

Meh, focus on the here and now so we can get UU going, and maybe even NU. 

This doesn't take away from UU or NU in any way, anyway.

 

If we remove the Gen 4 additions we lack, couldn't we test suspects we have in game right now outside of official events? Like Dragonite and Gyarados for examples. 

We could but we are not using that for official tiering. We already did this in Phase I but the amount of participants is minimal and things like Hidden Power are a factor ingame.

[DoubleJ]

 

Meh, focus on the here and now so we can get UU going, and maybe even NU. 

This doesn't take away from UU or NU in any way, anyway.

 

If we remove the Gen 4 additions we lack, couldn't we test suspects we have in game right now outside of official events? Like Dragonite and Gyarados for examples. 

We could but we are not using that for official tiering. We already did this in Phase I but the amount of participants is minimal and things like Hidden Power are a factor ingame.

 

 

I feels you, but what is this thread accomplishing? It's basically just for kicks then if what I'm inferring from your comments above are correct. 

[ThinkNice]

I feels you, but what is this thread accomplishing? It's basically just for kicks then if what I'm inferring from your comments above are correct. 

Well testing right now could have some kind of impact because we have literally months to test, even though it goes very slow. Opposed to testing our current metagame on Showdown that has less of use because there is not much time to test and we are already 'testing' ingame.

This test is also meant to see if the metagame would be totally fucked up with future additions so we could maybe argue against them being implemented at some point (at least till gen IV pokes are a thing).