[Discussion] Dragonite [Banned from OU to Ubers]

[Gunthug]

Again for the fifth time I don't use dnite. It can be set up on by anything faster then it which is almost everything. It's to slow.

And for the fifth time, I haven't said once that you use dnite. But you still really really want it to stay, right?

[NikhilR]

Again for the fifth time I don't use dnite. It can be set up on by anything faster then it which is almost everything. It's to slow.

 

Please list some of the things that are faster than dnite, can set up on dnite switching and carry hp ice/icebeam/icepunch. Because unless it satisfies all/most of that criteria, it really doesn't force dragonite to switch out and moreover, please tell me whether that set up can win someone a match.

Edited February 12, 2015 by NikhilR

[XPLOZ]

Firstly, ignoring dnite's mixed set is grave mistake, as it shits on pretty much anyhting that would wall its cb set. Dnite is generally more versatile than other cb'ers, none of which can really pull of a decent mixed, although it is obvious that banded dnite is the most critical set.

 

I agree for mixednite as i said, but you'll have to make a choice, CB one or mixed one ? To check a CB one is simple, then the adversary will be normally able to play accordingly.

And you are right too when you says that there isn't much viable mixed sweepers in that meta. Then if we ban this, some walls will be much more safe, and i don't think it's a good thing. (I also noticed that some ppl arguing for the ban of dragonite are stall players, but nevermind).

 

"but it also has access to espeed, which is extremely broken. Unlike other banders, dnite is not done when it has broken your core - it can come back to revenge kill and even sweep your entire team with espeed. After having broken a single wall, it is easy to weaken the opposing team to the point where dnite is unstoppable. This feature sets dnite apart from any other bander."

 

I said it too, the main reason why nite is very often played in this meta is his excellent priority move (in a meta where it lacks severely priority moves. >inb4 the problem is the meta ???). Then it's double utility : priority move user and very good sweeper.

If this is the only problem, what about banning only espeed + dragonite combinaison ?

 

 

Why do you guys keep mentioning gengar? It's like you just really really want dnite to stay, so you're just pulling stuff out of your ass to "bolster" your arguments. The tier council has plenty of ammo now to make a decision

 

People are talking about the ability of dragonite to threaten everything with his huge movepool. But with dragonite, gengar has the best movepool of the game and we all know some sets which are huge threats to a very large part of the metagame. By the logic of your reasoning, his ban is inevitable, in my opinion.

Edited February 12, 2015 by XPLOZ

[YagamiNoir]

I agree for mixednite as i said, but you'll have to make a choice, CB one or mixed one ? To check a CB one is simple, then the adversary will be normally able to play accordingly.
And you are right too when you says that there isn't much viable mixed sweepers in that meta. Then if we ban this, some walls will be much more safe, and i don't think it's a good thing. (I also noticed that some ppl arguing for the ban of dragonite are stall players, but nevermind).

"but it also has access to espeed, which is extremely broken. Unlike other banders, dnite is not done when it has broken your core - it can come back to revenge kill and even sweep your entire team with espeed. After having broken a single wall, it is easy to weaken the opposing team to the point where dnite is unstoppable. This feature sets dnite apart from any other bander."

I said it too, the main reason why nite is very often played in this meta is his excellent priority move (in a meta where it lacks severely priority moves. >inb4 the problem is the meta ???). Then it's double utility : priority move user and very good sweeper.
If this is the only problem, what about banning only espeed + dragonite combinaison ?




People are talking about the ability of dragonite to threaten everything with his huge movepool. But with dragonite, gengar has the best movepool of the game and we all know some sets which are huge threats to a very large part of the metagame. By the logic of your reasoning, his ban is inevitable, in my opinion.

Comparing Gengar with Dragonite is sort of a bad comparison. Rather than sheer power, Gengar, rather, posseses unpredictability in not only the offensive spectrum but in the utility spectrum as well. He doesn't do one role specifically well nor are any of his dedicated sets overpowering, but, well, but he has tons of options that make it dangerously unpredictable, but not to the point where it's the end of the world. Dragonite posseses these banworthy sets with the metagame centralized around only -one- main set, which is Choice Band, compared to your reasoning in regards to Gengar, that is threatening due to it's versatility and unpredictability.

EDIT: "Let's ban ExtremeSpeed on Dragonite!" You're probably unaware of how the usage of complex bans is very much disagreed and rejected in how the council and the metagame establishes things here. Edited February 12, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[XPLOZ]

Comparing Gengar with Dragonite is sort of a bad comparison. Rather than sheer power, Gengar, rather, posseses unpredictability in not only the offensive spectrum but in the utility spectrum as well. He doesn't do one role specifically well nor are any of his dedicated sets overpowering, but, well, but he has tons of options that make it dangerously unpredictable, but not to the point where it's the end of the world. Dragonite posseses these banworthy sets with the metagame centralized around only -one- main set, which is Choice Band, compared to your reasoning in regards to Gengar, that is threatening due to it's versatility and unpredictability.

 

Not really, when you'll ask someone why gengar is a beast (in the actual meta), he'll answer you mainly 2sets (disable sub & ps wow), like here for dragonite.

And i already talked about CB set. Yes it's possibly a huge threat. But a good team built and a good prediction can deal with it, we can't deny that.

Edited February 12, 2015 by XPLOZ

[PandaJJ]

I agree for mixednite as i said, but you'll have to make a choice, CB one or mixed one ? To check a CB one is simple, then the adversary will be normally able to play accordingly.
And you are right too when you says that there isn't much viable mixed sweepers in that meta. Then if we ban this, some walls will be much more safe, and i don't think it's a good thing. (I also noticed that some ppl arguing for the ban of dragonite are stall players, but nevermind).
 
"but it also has access to espeed, which is extremely broken. Unlike other banders, dnite is not done when it has broken your core - it can come back to revenge kill and even sweep your entire team with espeed. After having broken a single wall, it is easy to weaken the opposing team to the point where dnite is unstoppable. This feature sets dnite apart from any other bander."
 
I said it too, the main reason why nite is very often played in this meta is his excellent priority move (in a meta where it lacks severely priority moves. >inb4 the problem is the meta ???). Then it's double utility : priority move user and very good sweeper.
If this is the only problem, what about banning only espeed + dragonite combinaison ?

I'm sorry for the confusion, my post was mostly a response to Fred's arguments, since you brought that up.

As for saying that player's that argue for the ban are "stallplayers", that is wishfull thinking on your part. Many players can switch their playstyle. Most of the relevant arguments are objective anyways, so who states them is not relevant. A rather bigger issue is that "offensive" players fail to realize the necessity of the ban, because they are biased. Furthermore, you might have noticed that there is a slowbro discussion going on - not only offensive threats are being discussed, but anything that might be broken.

Also, it's not the fact that dnite has access to espeed that makes it broken, but how much damage it can dish out with it. The lack of priority users is an isolated issue, and there is nothing preventing us from banning whatever probelms this may cause - at the very least, the consequences of banning dnite are irrelevant in the question of whether dnite is broken or not.

[Gunthug]

Not really, when you'll ask someone why gengar is a beast (in the actual meta), he'll answer you mainly 2sets (disable sub & ps wow), like here for dragonite.

And i already talked about CB set. Yes it's possibly a huge threat. But a good team built and a good prediction can deal with it, we can't deny that.

Yeah I can carry Forretress, Slowbro, and Swampert on every team, that should check CB dnite pretty well assuming I guess correctly when it comes in. But you shouldn't have to carry 3 pokemon to help defend against 1 poke which is used on over 50% of teams

 

Also I love how you tried bringing up the bias of stall players in wanting Dnite gone, but ignored the bias of offensive players wanting him to stay.

 

Lastly, I won't address gengar anymore, because this thread says right at the top "[Discussion] Dragonite." If it said "[Discussion] Gengar" your constant gengar references MIGHT be appropriate. But they're not

[YagamiNoir]

Not really, when you'll ask someone why gengar is a beast (in the actual meta), he'll answer you mainly 2sets (disable sub & ps wow), like here for dragonite.
And i already talked about CB set. Yes it's possibly a huge threat. But a good team built and a good prediction can deal with it, we can't deny that.

Neither of those sets are overpowering or centralizing in their own right. "Someone" as in who? You're kind of making injusified, blatant statements here, and Gengar's not supposed to be in this thread, for the record.

No, it is not -possibly-a huge threat. It has unequivocally become the defining epitome of a nearly risk-free, offensively intolerable attacker in our metagame. You should probably see the usage statistics; because of Dragonite alone, 50% of competitively teams were centralized to build around it, which completely ruins diversity. Nothing can deal with a Dragonite effectively, and prediction is theoretically an irrelevant argument. Edited February 12, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[Excelimpulse]

Yeah I can carry Forretress, Slowbro, and Swampert on every team, that should check CB dnite pretty well assuming I guess correctly when it comes in. But you shouldn't have to carry 3 pokemon to help defend against 1 poke which is used on over 50% of teams

Also I love how you tried bringing up the bias of stall players in wanting Dnite gone, but ignored the bias of offensive players wanting him to stay.

Lastly, I won't address gengar anymore, because this thread says right at the top "[Discussion] Dragonite." If it said "[Discussion] Gengar" your constant gengar references MIGHT be appropriate. But they're not

I didn't attack any type of play. I just stated what dnite threatens. And actually you only need swanpert and foretress to stop dnite. Or you could run skarmory over foretress.

Slowvro isn't even needed. And on top of that skarmory gets rest talk. Oh that's right so does swampert. And don't say either are unrealibke because with either one you can take a hit then switch off the cb move to set up.

And then rest later on with the one that took the hit.

Either way you dint need all 3 dnite can break a core for sure...but that's it's job....it's a wallbreaker. Get it wallbreaker.

And I'm just using gengar as an example. You can bring in heracross if you want idc. Anything that puts massive amount of pressure on the opponent and can out run dnite threatbes the whole game.

[Gunthug]

I didn't attack any type of play. I just stated what dnite threatens. And actually you only need swanpert and foretress to stop dnite. Or you could run skarmory over foretress.

Slowvro isn't even needed. And on top of that skarmory gets rest talk. Oh that's right so does swampert. And don't say either are unrealibke because with either one you can take a hit then switch off the cb move to set up.

And then rest later on with the one that took the hit.

Either way you dint need all 3 dnite can break a core for sure...but that's it's job....it's a wallbreaker. Get it wallbreaker.

And I'm just using gengar as an example. You can bring in heracross if you want idc. Anything that puts massive amount of pressure on the opponent and can out run dnite threatbes the whole game.

1st, I was addressing Xploz not you with regards to the Stall bias comments

 

2nd, running rest talk on skarm when it gets outsped and 1hkod by anything with an electric or fire special move is risky. I don't think I need to remind you that combining magneton with your dnite gets rid of your forret/skarm problem (though I will concede that mag usage is down, and that metagross isn't as easily dealt with)

 

3rd, I agree that dnite's job is a wallbreaker. My argument is that he's TOO GOOD of a wallbreaker, to the point where you can't really effectively deal with him unless you also play hyper offensive, or you bring a stupid amount of walls specifically to deal w/the threat he brings

[YagamiNoir]

I didn't attack any type of play. I just stated what dnite threatens. And actually you only need swanpert and foretress to stop dnite. Or you could run skarmory over foretress.
Slowvro isn't even needed. And on top of that skarmory gets rest talk. Oh that's right so does swampert. And don't say either are unrealibke because with either one you can take a hit then switch off the cb move to set up.
And then rest later on with the one that took the hit.
Either way you dint need all 3 dnite can break a core for sure...but that's it's job....it's a wallbreaker. Get it wallbreaker.
And I'm just using gengar as an example. You can bring in heracross if you want idc. Anything that puts massive amount of pressure on the opponent and can out run dnite threatbes the whole game.

Why did you respond to a statement meant for someone else ("I didn't attack any type of play")?

Nobody wants to run Skarmory and Forretress +Swampert on every team just to deal with this thing without factoring the little tool called Magneton that deals with the former two. Also, another "it's always the counter that gets the advantage" argument. Sigh.

Why are we even trying to persuade you, to be honest. Edited February 12, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[Excelimpulse]

1st, I was addressing Xploz not you with regards to the Stall bias comments

2nd, running rest talk on skarm when it gets outsped and 1hkod by anything with an electric or fire special move is risky. I don't think I need to remind you that combining magneton with your dnite gets rid of your forret/skarm problem (though I will concede that mag usage is down, and that metagross isn't as easily dealt with)

3rd, I agree that dnite's job is a wallbreaker. My argument is that he's TOO GOOD of a wallbreaker, to the point where you can't really effectively deal with him unless you also play hyper offensive, or you bring a stupid amount of walls specifically to deal w/the threat he brings

So you can stop it with stall and hyper offensive? Wouldn't that mean balance is kind of useless now like it is in later gens?

So it can break a balanced team core walls if predicted right. It still has to outrun a magority of its offensive threats that can easily take advantage of it.

And espeed argument is irrelavant to me because of metagriss rhydone and others that can set up completely on it if spammed early.

Dnite speed is lacking and with the power cb set is only really effective. The mix set can break the walls that would wall other wise but then risk not hitting the major threats hard that it needs to. And without cb it's not ohkojng bulky water that it needs to survive the ice beam.

The cb set is the only issue from what I have seen. The mix is just a suprise factor but then can't hit and run hard at all and risks being beamed.

[YagamiNoir]

So you can stop it with stall and hyper offensive? Wouldn't that mean balance is kind of useless now like it is in later gens?
So it can break a balanced team core walls if predicted right. It still has to outrun a magority of its offensive threats that can easily take advantage of it.
And espeed argument is irrelavant to me because of metagriss rhydone and others that can set up completely on it if spammed early.
Dnite speed is lacking and with the power cb set is only really effective. The mix set can break the walls that would wall other wise but then risk not hitting the major threats hard that it needs to. And without cb it's not ohkojng bulky water that it needs to survive the ice beam.
The cb set is the only issue from what I have seen. The mix is just a suprise factor but then can't hit and run hard at all and risks being beamed.

....I think what we've been all saying is it can't be reliably stopped by any strategy, stall or fight fire with fire alike.

This is all just looping back to the same argument you brought up last page.

ExtremeSpeed isn't what Dragonite -mainly- spams, but it does make checking it difficult. It's not the tool it uses to shred through all the bulky stuff, but being able to make checks irrelevant in some cases does mean a big thing. Why in Lucifer's sake do you always think that you always get the right predictions sometimes? Hasn't the fact that "prediction is not that relevant" been stated here a couple of times? Are you seeing yourself as a mind-reading god?

What significant wall outspeeds Dragonite and what offensive threat that can outspeed Dragonite can switch in? What justifies that the risk is bigger for Dragonite than it is for it's switches?

I think I give up here. Edited February 12, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[XPLOZ]

1 - I'm not talking about running 3stalls especially to check dragonite, but running a good defensive core to check everything (especially CBanders). Also the set of dragonite you are talking about coutains 1normal +1fighting move. Add to this a CB, and you have many solutions (firstly things called ghosts, i repeat) to deal with it. Yes it's risky, because if the adversary plays well dragonite, it can beat you. But if not, it will be difficult for him.

 

2 - We have the right to explain our opinion, like you. Wasn't that thread created for that ? Or must we say "yes you are right, ban it, end off"

 

3 - In my opinion, magneton (and trapers with their ability) should be ban. Magneton + a great physical sweeper can always be a threat, it's not specific to dragonite.

Edited February 12, 2015 by XPLOZ

[PandaJJ]

So you can stop it with stall and hyper offensive? Wouldn't that mean balance is kind of useless now like it is in later gens?
So it can break a balanced team core walls if predicted right. It still has to outrun a magority of its offensive threats that can easily take advantage of it.
And espeed argument is irrelavant to me because of metagriss rhydone and others that can set up completely on it if spammed early.
Dnite speed is lacking and with the power cb set is only really effective. The mix set can break the walls that would wall other wise but then risk not hitting the major threats hard that it needs to. And without cb it's not ohkojng bulky water that it needs to survive the ice beam.
The cb set is the only issue from what I have seen. The mix is just a suprise factor but then can't hit and run hard at all and risks being beamed.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but all your statements so far have been irrelevant or false. If you want to have any impact, please make your comments:
1. Relevant
2. True

To begin with, you can give a reply to this post:

Please list some of the things that are faster than dnite, can set up on dnite switching and carry hp ice/icebeam/icepunch. Because unless it satisfies all/most of that criteria, it really doesn't force dragonite to switch out and moreover, please tell me whether that set up can win someone a match.

Throwing out the statement that many pokemon can SET UP on a freaking cb dnite, and then not defending it, is of no help in this discussion. Edited February 12, 2015 by PandaJJ

[Excelimpulse]

....I think what we've been all saying is it can't be reliably stopped by any strategy, stall or fight fire with fire alike.

This is all just looping back to the same argument you brought up last page.

ExtremeSpeed isn't what Dragonite -mainly- spams, but it does make checking it difficult. It's not the tool it uses to shred through all the bulky stuff, but being able to make checks irrelevant in some cases does mean a big thing. Why in Lucifer's sake do you always think that you always get the right predictions sometimes? Hasn't the fact that "prediction is not that relevant" been stated here a couple of times? Are you seeing yourself as a mind-reading god?

What significant wall outspeeds Dragonite and what offensive threat that can outspeed Dragonite can switch in? What justifies that the risk is bigger for Dragonite than it is for it's switches?

I think I give up here.

Well if you would read that when I said sometimes you have to sac a poke to get the momentum in your favor. The whole entire battle is about that. And when you don't have it. Dnite has a horrible time coming in do to lack of speed and the weaknesses. It is then forced to come in on a threat that it wouldn't want to do. do to the risk of burn by or dieing to a faster poke like heracross etc.

[Gunthug]

1 - I'm not talking about running 3stalls especially to check dragonite, but running a good defensive core to check everything (especially CBanders). Also the set of dragonite you are talking about coutains 1normal +1fighting move. Add to this a CB, and you have many solutions (firstly things called ghosts, i repeat) to deal with it. Yes it's risky, because if the adversary plays well dragonite, it can beat you. But if not, it will be difficult for him.

 

2 - We have the right to explain our opinion, like you. Wasn't that thread created for that ? Or must we say "yes you are right, ban it, end off"

 

3 - In my opinion, magneton (and trapers with their ability) should be ban. Magneton + a great physical sweeper can always be a threat, it's not specific to dragonite.

The problem is Dnite relatively easily breaks through defensive cores that would otherwise be effective. You slip up even once, and a pivotal piece of your core can be picked off by dnite, which means its only a matter of time before it wrecks the rest of your team. Whereas, if you predict correctly and, for example, send in swampert on a tpunch, the dnite can retreat and try again later. The risk is much higher for the opponent of dnite than the dnite user

 

And I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, you are definitely allowed to argue against a dnite ban. But any talk of gengar is completely irrelevant. And for that matter, so is talk about magneton and trappers. Let's just talk about dnite, ok?

[XPLOZ]

And I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, you are definitely allowed to argue against a dnite ban. But any talk of gengar is completely irrelevant. And for that matter, so is talk about magneton and trappers. Let's just talk about dnite, ok?

 

I wasn't talking to you but to this :

 

 

Why are we even trying to persuade you, to be honest.

 

(my fault i didn't precise)

+Magneton argue was bring by YagamiNoir

Edited February 12, 2015 by XPLOZ

[Excelimpulse]

One slip up in a competitive match shouldn't be aloud. You slip up, you shouldn't get a slap on the wrist. You better have plan b, aka something faster and can force it to switch or take complete advantage of it. Heracross gengar jolt aero flygon are quick ones that can put a lot of pressure on the other team. Giving you momentum which then let's dnite have a hell of time coming in. Yes those pokes can be stoppped but most of them are running sub which means your getting hit now hard either way and possibly could lose one of yours if not more just because you finished off a dying wall that's done its job of laying spikes absorbing enough hits.

Walls are not supposed to last forever.

And not talking about the future or other pokes that can lead to more bans or even thinking about the future is stupid imo. If we're only dealing in the now, that is how we end up where we were 6 months ago. Especially when dnite is a gateway for 3 other bans.

And if we ban endure rev only now after a year worth of bashing people for the curse lax issue that's just sad. It's basically saying you control everything and can bash people then flip a switch and say it's okay now.

[Sacky]

Well if you would read that when I said sometimes you have to sac a poke to get the momentum in your favor. The whole entire battle is about that. And when you don't have it. Dnite has a horrible time coming in do to lack of speed and the weaknesses. It is then forced to come in on a threat that it wouldn't want to do. do to the risk of burn by or dieing to a faster poke like heracross etc.

i know u want to defend your point but even you cant believe that

how a user od DD and/or e-speed really need a good speed base?

Dnite is broken and (like gonthug said) outclassed very good options for late sweep or hard hitters like flygon for example

the multiple moveset of nite make him extremly unpredictable 

[flavajabari]

Please list some of the things that are faster than dnite, can set up on dnite switching and carry hp ice/icebeam/icepunch. Because unless it satisfies all/most of that criteria, it really doesn't force dragonite to switch out and moreover, please tell me whether that set up can win someone a match.

[XPLOZ]

i know u want to defend your point but even you cant believe that

how a user od DD and/or e-speed really need a good speed base?

Dnite is broken and (like gonthug said) outclassed very good options for late sweep or hard hitters like flygon for example

the multiple moveset of nite make him extremly unpredictable 

 

Sometimes people are talking about 1 centralizing set and sometimes about too many sets. What then ?

+ without Roost all the stall sets are not very viable. (instead of wishmence which was very good)

Edited February 12, 2015 by XPLOZ

[Sacky]

Sometimes people are talking about 1 centralizing set and sometimes about too many sets. What then ?

+ without Roost all the stall sets are not very viable. (instead of wishmence which was very good)

my point is...nite have acces to many AND viable moves and sets.and that's make him a problem

sure, a band whit claw, t-punch, e-speed, superpower is the most comon and maybe the big coverage set of a band one

but even whit the claw hit your metagross in the switch in u gonna stay whit your metagross whit no worries and dont think the nite can be a DD user whit EQ or fire punch?..the option is real, and if u dont dont conisder that in the middle of the match, then u r a bad comp player

[Excelimpulse]

Gengar jolt heracross aero starmie flygon alakzam metagross machamp don't even need the speed if at full health. And metagross can come in on a cb dclaw all day and begin to abuse it. Most of the time dnite is mid late game but even used as a lead metagross will still kill it.

Zam can abuse sub encore and run hp ice. Starmie is ehh but still forces it out and can hit something else hard.

That is what I was thinking about setting up on it. Gengar and metagross and aero I have done countless times already and works 100% of the time. Heracross I havnt used yet tbh along with jolt but I'd imagine it works the same way in using sub and if dnite hits u kilL it then.

And lets be honest. You know when dnite hits you with dclaw. So you know if it's banded or not.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[XPLOZ]

i know u want to defend your point but even you cant believe that

how a user od DD and/or e-speed really need a good speed base?

Dnite is broken and (like gonthug said) outclassed very good options for late sweep or hard hitters like flygon for example

the multiple moveset of nite make him extremly unpredictable 

 

You can check all of that with a good team built

-If DDancer, there are pokemons which can come on the first DD and make an ice move (vap for exemple)

-If CBander, try to brain it with your team built and don't let it come many times (anticipation is real)

-If Mixed, it won't do much physical damage, deal with it.

 

All of that are sweeper sets. If dragonite had Roost, then i'd agree that it would be very unpredictable.

Edited February 12, 2015 by XPLOZ