[Discussion] Dragonite [Banned from OU to Ubers]

[Excelimpulse]

Can I just say this and then I'll leave and you guys can ban what you want. Imo there will never be a "perfect metagame". Perfect doesn't exist is real life let alone this.

The strive for the perfect balance will never happen we can only get close to it. Having threats to be able to hit bulky waters hard is important.

Like I have stated months ago. The metagame will become more of prediction based and the safe checks will dwindle.

But my last suggestion what about adding choice scarf. Does this solve all of our problems?

[Gunthug]

Can I just say this and then I'll leave and you guys can ban what you want. Imo there will never be a "perfect metagame". Perfect doesn't exist is real life let alone this.

The strive for the perfect balance will never happen we can only get close to it. Having threats to be able to hit bulky waters hard is important.

Like I have stated months ago. The metagame will become more of prediction based and the safe checks will dwindle.

But my last suggestion what about adding choice scarf. Does this solve all of our problems?

The fact that we'll never have a perfect meta game is not an excuse to sit back and let broken Pokemon roam free

[Excelimpulse]

The fact that we'll never have a perfect meta game is not an excuse to sit back and let broken Pokemon roam free

the fact that I state we can only get close to it makes me wonder......and right now I think we're as close we can get. Your definition of broken is not the same as mine.

[Gunthug]

the fact that I state we can only get close to it makes me wonder......and right now I think we're as close we can get. Your definition of broken is not the same as mine.

So we have this enormous shakeup, move sets are changed, powers shift all over the place, new Pokemon are added - and you think, with only 2 bans (both of which were absolutely obvious), we're there? We're as close as we can get?

I get the feeling that you're pretty heavily biased when you say that. You've always been pretty ban averse, meaning you don't want to see the Pokemon you've trained become unusable in the Ou meta. This is why I have trouble taking you seriously - you're not arguing with logic, you're arguing with emotion

[Bestfriendss]

God Damnit I just bred a nice one
but as JJ ordered

Here we are to discuss the infamous Dragonite which has been causing havoc in OU. It topped the Usage Stats thus far and even if more are taken I can't see any other poke being used more. The beast is obviously too strong for OU.

So I guess I'll start with my input on its offense. I don't do calcs.
It has a massive ATK, Great SATK and a SPE which really does not matter. It has a ridiculous ATK paired with a spammable STAB that is seldom resisted. It has access to Superpower, All Punches, Boltbeam, Fire Moves, Earthquake and a bunch of other stuff which isn't worth mentioning. Dnite has great coverage and can also effectively run a mixed or ddance set. However the CB set is the most overpowered because of Extreme Speed. Espeed either does 90% or ohkos a good portion of the meta which outspeeds it. It is an easy tool to dispose of nearly every pokenon faster than it. Extreme Speed is the most overpowered part of Dnite in my opinion.

And the bulk. Yea it has a 4x weakness but aside from that it can come in on soooo much. It has great resistances, and overall bulk. This bulk which allows it to not be okhod by most ice beams, punches, HP Ices and other wimpy gimmicky shit because this beast is too centralizing.

Ban this beast.

Edit: from phone so expect errors

 

 

Folks, use more Vapereons and Starmies, problem solved... For the stars, just watch out for Heracross.

[jayfeatskydd]

Folks, use more Vapereons and Starmies, problem solved... For the stars, just watch out for Heracross.

Starmie does not counter Dragonite, it's hardly even a check imo.

If this is your reply to what craig posted, I get the feeling you didn't even read what he wrote.

[Pidgeysaurus]

Can I just say this and then I'll leave and you guys can ban what you want. Imo there will never be a "perfect metagame". Perfect doesn't exist is real life let alone this.

The strive for the perfect balance will never happen we can only get close to it. Having threats to be able to hit bulky waters hard is important.

Like I have stated months ago. The metagame will become more of prediction based and the safe checks will dwindle.

But my last suggestion what about adding choice scarf. Does this solve all of our problems?

 

 

you're posts are always EXCELlent (haha get it cus your name)

[DrCraig]

Folks, use more Vapereons and Starmies, problem solved... For the stars, just watch out for Heracross.

252+ SpA Dragonite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 104-124 (43.8 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 112-133 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yea that's super safe.

 

4 SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 156-188 (93.4 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

That hurts and all vapo can do is get HP from protect to save it. Mostly when dnite can survive an ice beam is and spam dclaw is when it becomes annoying.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 132-156 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 88-104 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 166-196 (99.4 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Dragonite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 114-136 (68.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Starmie is so safe wow

 

 

the fact that I state we can only get close to it makes me wonder......and right now I think we're as close we can get. Your definition of broken is not the same as mine.

Stop trying to make people dance to your complaints. We get you don't want stuff banned because you have been doing this shit for months. Have some substance in your argument instead of giving everybody an attitude.

[Excelimpulse]

So we have this enormous shakeup, move sets are changed, powers shift all over the place, new Pokemon are added - and you think, with only 2 bans (both of which were absolutely obvious), we're there? We're as close as we can get?

I get the feeling that you're pretty heavily biased when you say that. You've always been pretty ban averse, meaning you don't want to see the Pokemon you've trained become unusable in the Ou meta. This is why I have trouble taking you seriously - you're not arguing with logic, you're arguing with emotion

I'm arguing with emotion??? I've stopped using dragonite lol. It's stoppable and can hinder your team if you try to rely on it.

I've never taking you seriously just for the fact that any offensive threat that threatens the special walls get discussed for bans.

Go discuss gengar. I'm much more terrified of that thing over dnite. I have no idea what's coming out of it. Dnite I can narrow it down. Gengar I won't know till it's done killing two pokes. But it's NEVER discussed. Why because it can't sweep? Now with sball sludge bomb hp fire that thing can sweep.

I love gengar plz don't ban. I'm against dnite ban because u go down a slope to heracross and blaizken. Your not only talking about banning one offensive threat right now your talking about 3. And if you fail to realize that that shows you the type of person you are.

No offense but don't call me out. Especially when I was right and now we have 6 potential more bans on top of the two instant ones.

[XPLOZ]

Foggi told me dragonite was bad, then it's bad, don't ban it.

 

Seriously, this is an excellent wallbreacker as i always said. But if you ban this, slowbro everywhere, then ban slowbro... ... then ban everything like we tried before. And because we are quite clever, then we'll bring back everything.

Also dragonite is often played in a team which needs a priority move. There is a lack of priority moves atm, then we'll have to ban again heracross, and maybe things like medicham, which are going to be too strong.

Edited February 11, 2015 by XPLOZ

[DrCraig]

I'm arguing with emotion??? I've stopped using dragonite lol. It's stoppable and can hinder your team if you try to rely on it.

I've never taking you seriously just for the fact that any offensive threat that threatens the special walls get discussed for bans.

Go discuss gengar. I'm much more terrified of that thing over dnite. I have no idea what's coming out of it. Dnite I can narrow it down. Gengar I won't know till it's done killing two pokes. But it's NEVER discussed. Why because it can't sweep? Now with sball sludge bomb hp fire that thing can sweep.

I love gengar plz don't ban. I'm against dnite ban because u go down a slope to heracross and blaizken. Your not only talking about banning one offensive threat right now your talking about 3. And if you fail to realize that that shows you the type of person you are.

No offense but don't call me out. Especially when I was right and now we have 6 potential more bans on top of the two instant ones.

Who cares if other stuff gets banned, the problem right now is dragonite. How about you tell us reasons why dragonite should not be banned instead of dancing off topic with bullshit.

 

Foggi told me dragonite was bad, then it's bad, don't ban it.

 

Seriously, this is an excellent wallbreacker as i always said. But if you ban this, slowbro everywhere, then ban slowbro... ... then ban everything like we tried before. And because we are quite clever, then we'll bring back everything.

Also dragonite is often played in a team which need a priority move. There is a lack of priority moves atm, then we'll have to ban again heracross, and maybe things like medicham, which are going to be too strong.

"Everything gonna get banned to" isnt an argument

Hera was banned before, why would it be suprising if we lose it again?

Medi will probably stay.

[Artemiseta]

if ur looking for priotity then arcanine works well or for laughs quick att blaz espeed linoone mach punch pokes are out there as well

all of these would work on an endure heracross at 1 hp power doesn't matter

[Excelimpulse]

Who cares if other stuff gets banned, the problem right now is dragonite. How about you tell us reasons why dragonite should not be banned instead of dancing off topic with bullshit.

"Everything gonna get banned to" isnt an argument
Hera was banned before, why would it be suprising if we lose it again?
Medi will probably stay.

Do you want a whole uber tier again? Who says I'm dancing off topic. When your talking about banning dnite your talking about 3+ pokes with it. Because endure rev will not solely be banned.

Dnite is stop cold by slowbro. You can argue all you want about tpunch. But then your giving up fire punch. What's more of a threat?? Dnite has a weakness no matter where you look at it. It's not like your spamming tpunch right away. And lets face it. Everyone running a steel and a water.

Dnite is also stopped cold with defensive gyarados. Again arguing about one move is useless. it will give up another valuable move for a water check when dclaw is already hitting it hard.

There are checks to dnite think outside the box. Jumping on the ban waggon is a good way to lose the amount of people we just brought into the competitive community.

Go back and look at how many people played with everything banned.

And above all what was the point in the split if your banning everything because of it??? Edited February 11, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DrCraig]

Oh true running Slowbro and Defensive Gyara on every team I make is not centralizing. Lets pretend Dnite can't run tbolt I guess. Dnite is overpowered we can worry about the destruction of OU after. (Sarcasm)

[NikhilR]

Dnite is stop cold by slowbro. You can argue all you want about tpunch. But then your giving up fire punch. What's more of a threat?? Dnite has a weakness no matter where you look at it. It's not like your spamming tpunch right away. And lets face it. Everyone running a steel and a water.

Dnite is also stopped cold with defensive gyarados. Again arguing about one move is useless. it will give up another valuable move for a water check when dclaw is already hitting it hard.

There are checks to dnite think outside the box. Jumping on the ban waggon is a good way to lose the amount of people we just brought into the competitive community.

Go back and look at how many people played with everything banned.

And above all what was the point in the split if your banning everything because of it???

 

Dnite does not get stopped cold by slowbro. If you feel that way then you and I have different definitions of that word. FirePunch is hardly useful compared to tpunch since it hits skarm/vapo/slowbros/gyaras which possess a bigger threat compared to forretress (no one tries to beat metagross with dnite). No not everyone runs a steel type and water. You're suggesting a defensive core to stop Dnite, which means that there isn't a counter.

 

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados: 180-212 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

I can clearly see right there how defensive gyara stops dnite stone cold. 

 

Bottom line is, just because something can safely switch into something means nothing.

 

Let me give you an example:

 

If you think Skarmory is a "counter" to Snorlax then it isn't because skarmory can't do shit to snorlax when the latter is the last pokemon and its cursing up.

 

Whereas Rhydon can be considered as a counter since it forces the lax to switch out because of its offensive presence.

 

Your bulky gyarados has 0 offensive presence, your forretress can't do shit to dnite so all you will be doing is taking attacks and praying your opponent switches out.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Instead of claiming that people can't figure out counters, try and play some tournaments in the new meta with your "counters"

Edited February 11, 2015 by NikhilR

[Excelimpulse]

You guys make lyle look like champions. (Sarcasm) I just said you can run thunder etc but your giving up another IMPORTANT move. So blissey and snorlax should also be banned for centralizing to right? Am I doing it right?

Fire punch or thunder punch???? Pretty sure if you want dckaw hitting hard you need the fire punch. You give up earthquake, metagross wrecking you.

My point is, to run a thunder move idc if it's mixed or whatever. You are giving up another IMPORTANT move that opens up NEW counters.

And for me not playing in tournaments. Ask old keith how that argument went when he got 5-1 against me.

Defensive gyardos gets thunder wave+ outrage now oh dear god yes outrage to hit dnite. smh and gets rest talk to absorb.

When I see a dnite use thunder anything steels have free rain. Plz noob use the thunder to let me set up on it.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[XPLOZ]

By thinking this way we need to ban gengar too, because it has a huge moveset and can possibly threatens everything.

[flavajabari]

Fire punch or thunder punch???? Pretty sure if you want dckaw hitting hard you need the fire punch. You give up earthquake, metagross wrecking you.

My point is, to run a thunder move idc if it's mixed or whatever. You are giving up another IMPORTANT move that opens up NEW counters.

 

you can't just keep switching in metagross on dnite, as superpower 2hko's it, 

and by the time you figured out the opponents drago's moveset, you've damaged/lost half your team.

 

dnite is low risk high reward, easy to spam, ridiculously large & good movepool, decent bulk, best priority, dragondance, decent sp att, ...

[RysPicz]

This is my first post in comp alley for a long time. But, I couldn't resist.

Foggi told me dragonite was bad

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Excelimpulse]

you can't just keep switching in metagross on dnite, as superpower 2hko's it,
and by the time you figured out the opponents drago's moveset, you've damaged/lost half your team.

dnite is low risk high reward, easy to spam, ridiculously large & good movepool, decent bulk, best priority, dragondance, decent sp att, ...

Uhm ill gladly sac slowbro to set up agility and gg With metagross. Or even set up spikes with foretress for free. All of these assumptions are with dnite at full health Also? How are you letting dnite switch in that many times?

and with that attitude ban flygon and gengar while your at it. Two bigger move pools than dnite. Better ability better type. More movesets

[flavajabari]

Uhm ill gladly sac slowbro to set up agility and gg With metagross. Or even set up spikes with foretress for free. All of these assumptions are with dnite at full health Also? How are you letting dnite switch in that many times?

and with that attitude ban flygon and gengar while your at it. Two bigger move pools than dnite. Better ability better type. More movesets

 

so make a thread for them, flygon doesn't have DD or extremespeed, gengar is another story.

if you think sacking your best def wall for metagross to set up equals gg, you need to come play/watch some more tourneys.

[Excelimpulse]

so make a thread for them, flygon doesn't have DD or extremespeed, gengar is another story.
if you think sacking your best def wall for metagross to set up equals gg, you need to come play/watch some more tourneys.

Who says slpwbro = only defensive wall? and if you ban dnite you left with arcanine as your only espeed left or we lose hera blaz.

You talking about 3 BANS not just dnite and you know it. Dnite gone is a slippery slope.

Agility gross setting up is a lot more threatening then a dnite spam of tbolt. And how did I miss that it gets ice punch??? Metagross forces the switch. And if you spam fire punch or eq good luck risking doing no damage.

[NikhilR]

You guys make lyle look like champions. (Sarcasm) I just said you can run thunder etc but your giving up another IMPORTANT move. So blissey and snorlax should also be banned for centralizing to right? Am I doing it right?

Fire punch or thunder punch???? Pretty sure if you want dckaw hitting hard you need the fire punch. You give up earthquake, metagross wrecking you.

My point is, to run a thunder move idc if it's mixed or whatever. You are giving up another IMPORTANT move that opens up NEW counters.

And for me not playing in tournaments. Ask old keith how that argument went when he got 5-1 against me.

Defensive gyardos gets thunder wave+ outrage now oh dear god yes outrage to hit dnite. smh and gets rest talk to absorb.

When I see a dnite use thunder anything steels have free rain. Plz noob use the thunder to let me set up on it.

 

Again if you read my above post I would have explained that fire punch is a shitty alternative since you have mainly 2 steel defensive types skarmory, forretress. Tpunch hits skarm, doesn't do much to fort but what is fort going to do? 

 

Dragon Claw / Thunder Punch / Superpower / Espeed

 

That is the best moveset, Your metagross can be shrekt by forretress since it can EQ. So yeah there's your counter.

 

 

Your defensive gyarados will be slower than dragonite so depending on the move, you will be 2hko'd. Oh wait I twaved the dragonite which means it's as good as dead  :rolleyes:

 

Twave means that you've just slowed down the process of your sweep and all you need is a cleric to heal the dragonite and the next time your gyara comes in, it dies.

 

----------------------------------------

 

Do you honestly think that you're such a great comp player and that you're the only one who has thought of "counters"? Every player who does comp on a regular basis has thought of these things way before you but all of them know that these "counters" are not real counters and that they're bad. I thought of impish gyarados back when wish mence was running around because I thought "hey same typing" but lack of recovery on gyarados made it bad compared to salamence.

 

Also to address your last statement "pls noob win a tournament in this meta with your steel rain team", 

Edited February 11, 2015 by NikhilR

[DaftCoolio]

Can I just say this and then I'll leave and you guys can ban what you want.

 

Can i just remind you of this

[Excelimpulse]

Again if you read my above post I would have explained that fire punch is a shitty alternative since you have mainly 2 steel defensive types skarmory, forretress. Tpunch hits skarm, doesn't do much to fort but what is fort going to do?

Dragon Claw / Thunder Punch / Superpower / Espeed

That is the best moveset, Your metagross can be shrekt by forretress since it can EQ. So yeah there's your counter.


Your defensive gyarados will be slower than dragonite so depending on the move, you will be 2hko'd. Oh wait I twaved the dragonite which means it's as good as dead :rolleyes:

Twave means that you've just slowed down the process of your sweep and all you need is a cleric to heal the dragonite and the next time your gyara comes in, it dies.

----------------------------------------

Do you honestly think that you're such a great comp player and that you're the only one who has thought of "counters"? Every player who does comp on a regular basis has thought of these things way before you but all of them know that these "counters" are not real counters and that they're bad. I thought of impish gyarados back when wish mence was running around because I thought "hey same typing" but lack of recovery on gyarados made it bad compared to salamence.

Also to address your last statement "pls noob win a tournament in this meta with your steel rain team",

Rest sleep talk and do you think I not know that other people have thought of thi? But who says it doesn't work fore can explode on yuur dnite btw