[Discussion] Dragonite [Banned from OU to Ubers]

[Robofiend]

Exactly whenevr a thread goes up it gets banned once the same few people have power come in and say it's op.

What arguments were made saying it needs banned. Because dnite can tpunch skowbro and vap? And then risk swampert coming in on your failed prediction?

Your basing all your arguments off of perfect predictions. like I have said before dnite has 5 move slot syndrome. If you run tpunch and superpower your giving up eq that hits metagross. all of these assumptions are based off a perfect moves that hit everything to its max. Spamming dclaw fire blast on a mix mence is completky different then having a low speed no ability poke doing it.

blows my mind that this will get banned on perfect prediction.

 

Bro, you are completely missing the point, you sure you can read those tiny letters? The reason people want Dragonite banned is because all it has to do is spam Dragon Claw and it can OHKO 3/4 of the metagame. The other quarter? They are steel type and die to Fire Punch/Blast. So really, it's a choice between:

 

1. Do I spam the most powerful and unresisted STAB in the game and crush whatever comes in?

2. Do I predict that they will use the one type that resists this type (steel) and just use a fire move to beat them?

 

DOES IT HELP TO SEE THIS IN BIGGER LETTERS??

[Excelimpulse]

Bro, you are completely missing the point, you sure you can read those tiny letters? The reason people want Dragonite banned is because all it has to do is spam Dragon Claw and it can OHKO 3/4 of the metagame. The other quarter? They are steel type and die to Fire Punch/Blast. So really, it's a choice between:

1. Do I spam the most powerful and unresisted STAB in the game and crush whatever comes in?
2. Do I predict that they will use the one type that resists this type (steel) and just use a fire move to beat them?

DOES IT HELP TO SEE THIS IN BIGGER LETTERS??

Do you miss the point that metagross gets bolt beam punches? has a better ability better typing better bulk. And what it's not close but u say unresusted? Endure rev heracross and blaziken isn't an issue now but it was 3 months ago? What changed?

[NikhilR]

Tfw excel completely ignored Robo's post, lol.

[Robofiend]

Yeah I'm out, lets ban this thing already

[Excelimpulse]

Tfw excel completely ignored Robo's post, lol.

Becyse he ignored mine when he said metagross can be resisted .

I'm going to bed ban it idc I don't use it. Just don't go on a ban chain. But I don't think dnite is properly being banned . Because it can either pick between. Two moves to hit with good damage just like any other poke. Metagross gengar gyardis bkaziken all can do this. But there not worthy?

Prove to me this won't end up in a ban chain please then I will say job well done.

Until then dnite is easily one of the strongest pokes we have but iT can be handled. Can endure rev heracross or blaziken? Because wouldn't it be centrakizening to have to use arcanine to stop them?
or am I wrong there to? Edited February 12, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DaftCoolio]

Becyse he ignored mine when he said metagross can be resisted .

u literally ignoreing everyone and sitting there in your own litle fairy world where if a pokemon has one counter its not ubers, well fuck pokemon can get taunt, lets un ban wobbu, vaporeon can kill ttar bring that back too.

 

 

Get your head out of your ass, it's not a hat.

[Gunthug]

 

 

 

Get your head out of your ass, it's not a hat.

I plan on saying this once a day from now on

 

Xcel, you still didn't answer my question. How could you possibly know what the meta will look like without Dnite? Right now, Dnite is on 50% of teams. You're telling me you know exactly what will happen when that turns to 0%? How????

[Excelimpulse]

[quote name="Gunthug" post="997545" timestamp="1423717903"]

I plan on saying this once a day from now on

Xcel, you still didn't answer my question. How could you possibly know what the meta will look like without Dnite? Right now, Dnite is on 50% of teams. You're telling me you know exactly what will happen when that turns to 0%? How????[/quote

4 months ago Is how I know. Or didn't you take history class and learn from the past? I guess history does repeat.

Prove me wrong that the chicken and fighting bug don't end up op. Actually give me full counters now plz? To the endure rev how do u stop that because you couldn't 4 months ago. Unless we got something new that I'm completely unaware of.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DoubleJ]

Guys stop. His premise is based on something that is irrelevent. Thread derailed for sure. Now it's just yell at excel vs excel's "i want to piss everyone off".

Community approves of a ban. Proper evidence has been provided without much logical opposition against. The ease at which Dragonite dices up a team is unrivaled and is unfair.

Council's time to do their job and discuss amongst themselves.

[RysPicz]

Thread derailed for sure.

Didn't even need Spider Man for that...

 

I wonder if Drago's ban will be somewhat balanced with the Slowbro ban. But like Flava said, the chain of bans begins. Good luck in shaping the new meta :)

[Gunthug]

[quote name="Gunthug" post="997545" timestamp="1423717903"]

I plan on saying this once a day from now on

Xcel, you still didn't answer my question. How could you possibly know what the meta will look like without Dnite? Right now, Dnite is on 50% of teams. You're telling me you know exactly what will happen when that turns to 0%? How????[/quote

4 months ago Is how I know. Or didn't you take history class and learn from the past? I guess history does repeat.

Prove me wrong that the chicken and fighting bug don't end up op. Actually give me full counters now plz? To the endure rev how do u stop that because you couldn't 4 months ago. Unless we got something new that I'm completely unaware of.

Do I need to make the damn puzzle analogy again? I figured you'd be too embarrased NOT to learn from it

 

And I'm not going to argue for or against a heracross/blaziken ban in a thread about dragonite. How could you possibly think that's appropriate?

[DoubleJ]

Didn't even need Spider Man for that...

 

I wonder if Drago's ban will be somewhat balanced with the Slowbro ban. But like Flava said, the chain of bans begins. Good luck in shaping the new meta :)

 

Slowbro isn't necessarily being banned, and I think it might become seen as evidently healthier considering the fact that with Dragonite being removed, things like Arcanine, Blaziken, Machamp, and Medicham will begin to see more light to fill that void. 

 

EDIT: And I mentioned ban chain before as well. The difference between when we say it and when you do is that we don't use it in our logic for defending or supporting the ban of Dragonite. We just mention it as an inevitable outcome. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by DoubleJ

[Excelimpulse]

So we want an outcome that creates a whole uber tier that throws us back to stall and wall. What hard hitters will we have left? I feel like we advance then go back 6 months with just different moves and say this is ok. How is that ok taking it to a place where we were losing 1-2 players a day because of how boring it is.

[DoctorPBC]

And the banning chain begins, so probably gonna stop when none of the meta ohkos none if the meta and stall mmo again.

Yay community ffs

[Robofiend]

So we want an outcome that creates a whole uber tier that throws us back to stall and wall. What hard hitters will we have left? I feel like we advance then go back 6 months with just different moves and say this is ok. How is that ok taking it to a place where we were losing 1-2 players a day because of how boring it is.

 

You are overreacting and making a fool of yourself. For your own reputation, stop. We still will have a lot of good pokemon and a lot of ways to stop them, you're just being really short sighted about the consequences of a Dragonite ban.

 

Also, remember last time when stall/wall took over? Remember what we did? We unbanned everything because we realized it didn't do any good. However, with the mechanics change now we believe it might be beneficial to limit some of the more obviously OP things in the game to promote team diversity.

[DoctorPBC]

Banning chain

Dragonite
Heracross and Dug because reversal OP
Slowbro because too OP without phys to break it
Gyarados because literally nothing stops it
Medicham because the OP sweeps
Metagross because no good buly water checks

Stallmmo


#winningcommunity

[Excelimpulse]

You are overreacting and making a fool of yourself. For your own reputation, stop. We still will have a lot of good pokemon and a lot of ways to stop them, you're just being really short sighted about the consequences of a Dragonite ban.

Also, remember last time when stall/wall took over? Remember what we did? We unbanned everything because we realized it didn't do any good. However, with the mechanics change now we believe it might be beneficial to limit some of the more obviously OP things in the game to promote team diversity.

Yup, and when I said you were wrong before I got called an idiot and was still right. Still called an idiot but you guys doing samethibg again? I'm making the fool out of myself? You said metagross had resisted coverage when it gets bolt beam punches?

what happens when we waste a perfectly good opportunity to add and keep players rather then lose them for good because we ban a whole tier again?

You can say add team diverse and use 4-5 new physical sweepers but two of them are now going to be on the chopping block. that part I don't get.

I get wanting team diverse, but when we wanted that before we ended up with rhydon vap maro jolt on every team. What makes you think this is gonna change? Because of a couple new moves and pokes that half will end up banned because of endure rev.

Hate me all you want. Prove me wrong unlike last time. Dint let the community die like it did because we go on ban crazy.

What will happen to blazoken now with endure rev tpunch and blaze kick. what stops that?

I'm looking for answers to the future not to troll.

[DoubleJ]

Community, I've tried countless times to steer discussion back in the right track but you all have failed me by trying to drive into a brick wall repeatedly. I'm out. I've spoke my peace. 

 

Up to the OU Council now. 

[Robofiend]

Yup, and when I said you were wrong before I got called an idiot and was still right. Still called an idiot but you guys doing samethibg again? I'm making the fool out of myself? You said metagross had resisted coverage when it gets bolt beam punches?

 

I seriously don't know what you're talking about. I said that Dragon Claw is largely unresisted, that's part of the reason that Metagross is on half of OU teams. Similarly, I don't care if Machamp, Medicham or any other pokemon is strong, they are comparably weak to Dragonite, who can hit a huge portion of the tier for super effective damage with STAB Dragon Claw, which is the reason everyone here (except you) thinks it should be banned.

 

There's a saying that, "If you run into one asshole, you run into one asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole." Think about that quote in regards to how everyone here has responded to your posts.

 

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to help you approach this argument with some dignity. Generally this community respects people who make concise, clear and correct analyses of the metagame, it doesn't often hold those who argue for arguments sake or get highly emotion in high regard. You've dropped tons of counterpoints raised by your opponents and continually thrown red herrings into the argument through this thread. To address other concerns: Endure/Reversal sets could become problematic but we always have options like flat banning moves at our disposal, something that I have advocated for in the past. 

 

Like I said, you're being very short-sighted and ignoring the fact that pokemon like Swampert, Heracross, Gengar, Blaziken, Metagross, hell, even Arcanine can now contribute to OU team dynamics in ways that were impossible before the split.

 

 

Banning chain

Dragonite

Flat ban reversal, boom (Did you forget that TC can ban moves too? We did it with Baton Pass and we'll do it again if necessary)

Heracross and Dug because reversal OP
Slowbro because too OP without phys to break it
Gyarados because literally nothing stops it
Medicham because the OP sweeps
Metagross because no good buly water checks

Stallmmo

#winningcommunity

[Excelimpulse]

Wait swampert and metagross didn't before? Dclaw hits the majority I'm not an idiot. But u have to choose between coverage meaning your not hitting all of its threats.

You choose fire punch slowbeo running on u all day.

You choose thunder steels running on you all day.

over centralizing? Wth do you call snorlax and blissey?

Edited February 12, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[XPLOZ]

Guys stop. His premise is based on something that is irrelevent. Thread derailed for sure. Now it's just yell at excel vs excel's "i want to piss everyone off".

Community approves of a ban. Proper evidence has been provided without much logical opposition against. The ease at which Dragonite dices up a team is unrivaled and is unfair.

 

Seems like a quite quick decision, and i didn't see any logical anwser to fredrichnietze's good post.

 

Dragonite can't come in game as easily as salamence (useless ability in this metagame) and he needs to be Choice banded to threaten everyone. Then a perfect prediction is needed, because he won't be able to come lots of time. It's up to the player.

The pokemon can't spam only dragon claw as it was said, and a fire move sometimes on steel types. Lot's of pokemons will resist (not resist, but the move won't be super effective) dragonclaw and have an ice move. Also Dragonite isn't very fast, lot's of pokemons can outspeed him. Superpower and espeed will be use in those cases, and will be stall by many other pokemons, firstly by ghosts.

In conclusion a good team built & prediction can deal with that threat, for me.

 

Edit : + a great moveset is good to keep a quite offensive meta'. If you ban nite and not gengar, it won't be logical at all. Then ban both, and best movesets of the game are gone. Rip anticipation, Welcome back stall/safe meta.

Edited February 12, 2015 by XPLOZ

[Excelimpulse]

Seems like a quite quick decision, and i didn't see any logical anwser to fredrichnietze's good post.

Dragonite can't come in game as easily as salamence (useless ability in this metagame) and he needs to be Choice banded to threaten everyone. Then a perfect prediction is needed, because he won't be able to come lots of time. It's up to the player.
The pokemon can't spam only dragon claw as it was said, and a fire move sometimes on steel types. Lot's of pokemons will resist (not resist, but the move won't be super effective) dragonclaw and have an ice move. Also Dragonite isn't very fast, lot's of pokemons can outspeed him. Superpower and espeed will be use in those cases, and will be stall by many other pokemons, firstly by ghosts.
In conclusion a good team built & prediction can deal with that threat, for me.

Edit : + a great moveset is good to keep a quite offensive meta'. If you ban nite and not gengar, it won't be logical at all. Then ban both, and best movesets of the game are gone. Rip anticipation, Welcome back stall/safe meta.

Be ware I said the same thing and got bashed.

What you Said about dnite is entirely
true. I don't even use him for the fact that speed is lacking and is hard to bring in. Anything faster can use it as set up bait or render it useless.

It is entirely based on the player and the knowledge he/she has for it to be effective. Acting like dnite can either spam fire punch or claw and hit something extremely hard then run away is not true at all. dnite can be set up on badly. Everyone should know that if you let gengar or sub aero or anything faster that will force it to switch it die is asking to lose. Your forced to sac dnite if they come in. Especially gengar. If it can be revenge killed or set up on how is that ban worthy. That's high risk/high reward.

Dnite is a problem for the stall player, dnite can be taken advantage of by an hyper offensive team.

That is what I have seen.

And before dnite lead issues come about...metagross checks it completely your forced to run or take a ice punch and then let metsgross explode later.

Also good luck in the future. Edited February 12, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[PandaJJ]

Seems like a quite quick decision, and i didn't see any logical anwser to fredrichnietze's good post.

Dragonite can't come in game as easily as salamence (useless ability in this metagame) and he needs to be Choice banded to threaten everyone. Then a perfect prediction is needed, because he won't be able to come lots of time. It's up to the player.
The pokemon can't spam only dragon claw as it was said, and a fire move sometimes on steel types. Lot's of pokemons will resist (not resist, but the move won't be super effective) dragonclaw and have an ice move. Also Dragonite isn't very fast, lot's of pokemons can outspeed him. Superpower and espeed will be use in those cases, and will be stall by many other pokemons, firstly by ghosts.
In conclusion a good team built & prediction can deal with that threat, for me.

Edit : + a great moveset is good to keep a quite offensive meta'. If you ban nite and not gengar, it won't be logical at all. Then ban both, and best movesets of the game are gone. Rip anticipation, Welcome back stall/safe meta.

I'm on my phone, so this will be ugly:

Fred did have the only relevant post arguing against a dnite ban, however it did contain quite a few flaws:
To sum it up, he claimed that dnite's only viable set is cb, that any other cb user is as dangerous as dnite, and that dnite did not have enough swith-in opportunities.
Firstly, ignoring dnite's mixed set is grave mistake, as it shits on pretty much anyhting that would wall its cb set. Dnite is generally more versatile than other cb'ers, none of which can really pull of a decent mixed, although it is obvious that banded dnite is the most critical set.
Secondly, dnite has a few perks over other cb'ers, even when considering only its cb set. Stab dclaw and better bulk/typing than most cb'ers might not be much, but it also has access to espeed, which is extremely broken. Unlike other banders, dnite is not done when it has broken your core - it can come back to revenge kill and even sweep your entire team with espeed. After having broken a single wall, it is easy to weaken the opposing team to the point where dnite is unstoppable. This feature sets dnite apart from any other bander.
Lastly, most of the things that could "prevent" dnite from coming in had to rely on hp ice or WoW. Arcanine can't even learn WoW, unlike what was stated, and dnite is by no means out of commision if it switches in on WoW - a cleric will bring it back to the game. If we have to go to the step where everything has to run hp ice to prevent dnite from ever coming in, it is hard to justify it staying. Also, he did not compare it to how what other banders can swith in on - except from WoW (which most banders don't mind thanks to guts/fire typing), other banders tend to not want to take any damage at all, unlike dnite which has some bulk.

Banning dnite is not a quick decison - ttar was banned literally within hours of the first OU official, and dnite has been analyzed over weeks now. The fact that this thread showed up this late has nothing to do with anything. Edited February 12, 2015 by PandaJJ

[Gunthug]

Why do you guys keep mentioning gengar? It's like you just really really want dnite to stay, so you're just pulling stuff out of your ass to "bolster" your arguments. The tier council has plenty of ammo now to make a decision

[Excelimpulse]

Why do you guys keep mentioning gengar? It's like you just really really want dnite to stay, so you're just pulling stuff out of your ass to "bolster" your arguments. The tier council has plenty of ammo now to make a decision

Again for the fifth time I don't use dnite. It can be set up on by anything faster then it which is almost everything. It's to slow.