[Discussion] Dragonite [Banned from OU to Ubers]

[NikhilR]

Rest sleep talk and do you think I not know that other people have thought of thi? But who says it doesn't work fore can explode on yuur dnite btw

 

Again if you want to rest, you have to not be 2hko'd which isn't the case with outrage/thunderpunch. And even with sleeptalk you can sleeptalk rest, meaning you still haven't done anything to dragonite.

 

Golem, Forretress, Steelix, Metagross, Snorlax, Claydol, Muk are some of the few that know explosion/self destruct. Can I name them as counters also?

[fredrichnietze]

for craig

 

ability - inner focus

type - dragon / flying

 

viable moves

 

-physical

Dragon Claw

Extreme Speed

Super Power

Thunder Punch

Fire Punch

Ice punch

Focus Punch

Wing Attack

EarthQuake

Outrage(maybe someday)

 

-special

Hydro Pump

Ice Beam

Thunder Bolt

Flamethrower

Thunder

Fire Blast

Blizzard

Surf

Hyper Beam

 

-other

Dragon Dance

Thunder Wave

Haze

Heal Bell

Substitute

 

common ev spread

cb bulky 94 hp 252 att 164 speed (121 stat) adamant

cb pure bulky 252 hp 252 att adamant

cb fast 252 att 252 speed adamant/jolly

DD fast 86 hp 252 att 172 speed (134 stat so as to outspeed jolteon/aero after one DD)

mixed  252 hp 252 att or split att/spa att brave/quiet (focus punch + sub set)

 

 

 

ok my input time. 

so dragonite cb set is pretty strong. but for that matter so is half the meta game atm for cb set. is there a single pokemon that can switch in vs every single one of dragonites moves? no. for that matter is there a single pokemon that can switch in vs every one of heracross's moves? how bout nidokings in the old UU? medicham? ursaring? ect... now ask is there anything that can switch in vs 3 of dragonites moves? standard cb set? yup, quiet a few actually. is dragonite without choice band a problem in our current meta? nope. which means with 2 walls you can by switching between them wall dnite all day. the only important part is predicting the switches and being sure to heal/cleric your 2 walls. "but fred you are bringing 2 walls to deal with one dragonite that PROVES it's op!!!!!" but random voice in my head that sounds like cody (idk why), you would bring these walls anyway to deal with the gazzilion and 5 other strong cb threats out there. so this is all good and well but if dnite can switch in often it's going to wear down your walls.

~list of pokemon dnite can and can not switch in on~

[spoiler]

got the list of pokemon im putting in here of the ou guide as doing all 386 would give a skewd veiw. also this is dnite switching IN not the other way around. the point of this is to see how many things are free switches for dnite (minimal or no damage/status) thus forcing the walls to come in and tank hits.

can switch 100% of the time

Crobat(barign hp ice/s bomb toxic)

Dugtrio

Gyarados

Sceptile

Scizor(unless cb bulky steel wing but eh~)

Skarmory(unless toxic but eh~)

Umbreon(toxic but eh~)

 

cant switch 100% of the time

Arcanine(wow/toxic on defensive)

Charizard(dem spec hp ice/phys d claw)

Claydol(i beam)

Dragonite(doesnt really count cause "a pokemon can not counter itself" but dclaw)

Dusclops(dem wow/i beam)

Exeggutor(hp ice/boom/sleep)

Gengar(hp ice/wow)

Jolteon(hp ice)

Jynx(i beam)

Kangaskhan(i beam + just too much damage from neutral normal attacks)

Kingdra(i beam/outrage on phsy)

Lapras(i beam/perish trapper set)

Ludicolo(i beam)

Marowak(rockslide)

Rhydon(rockslide)

Slowking (i beam but no one uses slowking it's bad)

Slowbro 

Starmie

Swampert

Swellow

Tauros

Ursaring(cb EQ free switch but EVERYTHING else hurts way too much)

Vaporeon

Weezing(hp ice/wow)

 

 

sometimes can sometimes cant switch

aerodactyl(EQ)

Alakazam

Blaziken(EQ/blaze kick)

Blissey(flamethrower/cleric stuff/semic if you got wish support)

Breloom(mach only cause super does too much)

Espeon(only vs healing/cm cause psychic hurts too much)

Flygon(EQ)

Gardevoir(wow/psychic/hp ice hits hard but cleric set or set up set b4 it set up is bait)

Heracross(cb and SD rockslide hurts but reversal set hates e speed)

Houndoom(dem wow/hp ice's)

Machamp(EQ on cb set=free switch but ice punch kills)

Metagross(i punch kills and m mash/boom just does to much damage but CB EQ=free switch)

Slaking(dem cb de/i punch but truant turns)

Snorlax(curse/eq/fire punch is just set up bait but ibeam/bslam para/i punch hurts)

Venusaur(bulky charm/trap set wins but most venas only have sleep powder which is eh~ + never seen a hp ice)

 

[/spoiler]

 

i'll do wall calcs in a bit on what walls can come in vs super/fire + thunder punch/dclaw/espeed. (i have been at this for 2+ hours straight)

 

but my basic argument in TL;DR form is, dnite can punish you bad if it can switch in many times + out predict you + you don't have good walls. however it NEEDS cb so it's locked into a move. this is something you can abuse (risk for the dnite users) and most of the walls even on a mispredict dont die. further more very few common pokemon are free switches for dragonite, so dragonite can not switch in often.

 

-if you bring a team full of pokemon that are free switches for dnite and loose thats your own fault for building a bad team

-if you repetitively mispredict dnites move and get shit on thats your own fault and you deserve to loose

-if you refuse to adapt to the current meta and bring 2x or more phsyical walls for dnite and other strong cb'ers thats your own fault for building a bad team and you deserve to loose

Edited February 11, 2015 by fredrichnietze

[MisterHide]

 if you ban dnite you left with arcanine as your only espeed
 

Linoone is still here

 

Who says slpwbro = only defensive wall? and if you ban dnite you left with arcanine as your only espeed left or we lose hera blaz.

You talking about 3 BANS not just dnite and you know it. Dnite gone is a slippery slope.

Agility gross setting up is a lot more threatening then a dnite spam of tbolt. And how did I miss that it gets ice punch??? Metagross forces the switch. And if you spam fire punch or eq good luck risking doing no damage.

Imo metagross and dnite aren't comparable, Meteor mash don't have an as good coverage than dragonclaw, making things like foretress and swampert counter it hardly, plus it's weak to EQ which is one of the most used physical attack.

 

I don't say metagross isn't banworthy if dnite is banned, but its not the subject of this thread.

 

For my thoughs about dnite, I agree the suprem coverage of stabbed dragonclaw is unhealthy for the OU tier, and whitout 4gen moves, it should be banned at least until we get 4g moves + ability (soon™?)

[flavajabari]

Who says slpwbro = only defensive wall? and if you ban dnite you left with arcanine as your only espeed left or we lose hera blaz.

You talking about 3 BANS not just dnite and you know it. Dnite gone is a slippery slope.

Agility gross setting up is a lot more threatening then a dnite spam of tbolt. And how did I miss that it gets ice punch??? Metagross forces the switch. And if you spam fire punch or eq good luck risking doing no damage.

 

i said best def wall, not only, so you said that.

for every def core you build, dnite has a moveset to break it.

 

im just looking for a healthy meta, and dragonite atm isn't part of that, if that leads to more pokes being banned, so be it.

[Excelimpulse]

Again if you want to rest, you have to not be 2hko'd which isn't the case with outrage/thunderpunch. And even with sleeptalk you can sleeptalk rest, meaning you still haven't done anything to dragonite.

Golem, Forretress, Steelix, Metagross, Snorlax, Claydol, Muk are some of the few that know explosion/self destruct. Can I name them as counters also?

Everything can be hit hard now with everyone getting punches. Does that make medicham ban worthy? Mavhamp? Come on Now. If your running that dnite set I will set spikes and explode all day on that thing. Putting you in the situation of losing your main sweeper plus having spikes down. Doesn't mean there counters but it is defiantly a way to take it out and swjnv the tables. I'm taking fire punch over thunder or your gonna be using thunder punch over its stab eveytime. Then swampert can set up on you also.

[flavajabari]

 

ok my input time. 

so dragonite cb set is pretty strong. but for that matter so is half the meta game atm for cb set. is there a single pokemon that can switch in vs every single one of dragonites moves? no. for that matter is there a single pokemon that can switch in vs every one of heracross's moves? how bout nidokings in the old UU? medicham? ursaring? ect... 

 

Weezing does a pretty good job at switching into the other pokes you mentioned.

 

 however it NEEDS cb so it's locked into a move. this is something you can abuse (risk for the dnite users) and most of the walls even on a mispredict dont die. further more very few common pokemon are free switches for dragonite, so dragonite can not switch in often.

 

i think you're underestimating the DD or even sub punch set. drago doesn't NEED cb to shine, allthough it's nice ofcourse.

[XPLOZ]

Quite agree with fredrichnietze.

 

CB nite with his great movepool is possibly a threat for lots of pokemons. But CB, and like each CB you can do only one move. Then its all about good or bad predict, and with a good team built you are normally able to stop this (don't need 1 specific counter which can counters every move).

 

Also people are talking about mixenite to say that it can threaten more things. As a mixed sweeper doesn't generally has CB, then dragonite won't be able to threaten lots of things he could threaten before (and don't say he can threatens everything as a mixed sweeper, everyone could play it like that for a while, and few have thought about it, sometimes laughing at me when i played that).

 

Then dragonite can possibly beat everything, if well played. But gengar too, as an exemple. And this isn't a very bad thing. Think about all the walls which are going to be a lot safer without those pokemons. And here we'll come back in a stall meta.

Edited February 11, 2015 by XPLOZ

[Shaniqualela]

Spatk gyarados is a much better CHECK to dnite (and physical gyarados) than defensive gyarados would be.
Gyara gets Ice beam (can ohko even if they have spdef investment)(and thunder for opposing gyarados and slowbro)

Just thought id point this out while people are talking about gyarados.

DNite has a lot of checks (slowbro, starmie (can come in on superpower and recover), gyarados, hp ice bulky gengar(rare), and the other bulky waters) but has literally NO counters.

It can beat anything if it has the right move set and prediction goes his way. I'm in favor of a ban for it unless we get 4th gen moves and items. Scarf users and other cool stuff would add even more checks to it (still no counters) but it would be much more manageable

[fredrichnietze]

 

 

ok my input time. 

so dragonite cb set is pretty strong. but for that matter so is half the meta game atm for cb set. is there a single pokemon that can switch in vs every single one of dragonites moves? no. for that matter is there a single pokemon that can switch in vs every one of heracross's moves? how bout nidokings in the old UU? medicham? ursaring? ect... 

 

Weezing does a pretty good job at switching into the other pokes you mentioned.

 

 however it NEEDS cb so it's locked into a move. this is something you can abuse (risk for the dnite users) and most of the walls even on a mispredict dont die. further more very few common pokemon are free switches for dragonite, so dragonite can not switch in often.

 

i think you're underestimating the DD or even sub punch set. drago doesn't NEED cb to shine, allthough it's nice ofcourse.

 

point 1

cb ursaring, kangaskhan, lax, tauros, swellow, aero, gyara (buky cb adamant if you decide to calc it), blaziken, machamp, kabutops.

i just named the first 4 off the top of my head. there are dozens of strong cb'ers now i still haven't mentioned. no one wall can wall them all so 2x with great defensive coverage is the way to go.

 

point 2

our discussion on dd/sub punch dnite ages ago B$ cB went basically "anyone think dnite is a problem? no? ok lets talk about sala/tytr"

[Noad]

Fred- the base stat table you have is really ugly and pixelated (no offence) so I resized you a new one:

 

Also, again, friendly reminder to keep it on topic. You don't need to resort to personally insulting each other or going off on tangents to get your points across. Will be removing posts of this nature from this point on.

[fredrichnietze]

Fred- the base stat table you have is really ugly and pixelated (no offence) so I resized you a new one:

 

Also, again, friendly reminder to keep it on topic. You don't need to resort to personally insulting each other or going off on tangents to get your points across. Will be removing posts of this nature from this point on.

i suck at paint. thankyou very much.

[DrCraig]

I'll edit the OP in a bit so it's more organized

 

edit: OP updated

Edited February 11, 2015 by DrCraig

[DoubleJ]

Banning Dragonite should be based solely on its individual effect on the meta and not whether it can lead to further bans. Although, we cannot discredit the fact that with Dragonite gone, other offensive threats will get a boost and further bans may be required.

[Gunthug]

Banning Dragonite should be based solely on its individual effect on the meta and not whether it can lead to further bans. Although, we cannot discredit the fact that with Dragonite gone, other offensive threats will get a boost and further bans may be required.

I think it's worth noting that with the split, I think we have more offensive options than we've ever had. What I mean is, the drop off from the absolutely top of the ladder attackers to the next shelf isn't as high as it used to be. Simply put - whereas banning mence dnite Hera and snorlax in the past gave stall way too much power, I think we've actually got a lot of good options waiting in the wings to replace these behemoths IF they're deemed too powerful (big if there). An easy example is flygon, which is just too outclassed by dnite right now to use imo

But as you said, these kind of hypothetical arguments have no place in a teiring discussion, simply because they rely too heavily on speculation

[Excelimpulse]

not thinking about the future of what if we ban dnite puts us in the same situation we were 6 months ago. I understand that it should only revolve around it only but if that's the case then were heading back to stall meta. We complain on how to grow the community but dwindle back into the ways that force people out of it. Dnite is stopped with a proper team built. If you go and just throw a bunch of pokes together without thinking about how to stop it, yes you will get wrecked. Does that mean its ban worth? No it means its a poke that needs proper planning against it. Ive yet to see proper arguments based on reasons to ban it. They are all based on perfect prediction. And according to you guys and girls that is not a proper ban appeal. And b4 GUNTHUG comes in here and says i use DNITE blah blah blah, its not true. 

 

Reasons why I am against it:

 

1: for it to be used at full potential, you need perfect prediction like stated above. dclaw hits hard but has to not hit steels, bulky water slowbro etc. tpunch has to hit waters only for it to be useful. but risks swampert jolt rhydon etc set ups. I could keep going on with all the moves but you guys get the point.

 

2. mence and ttar was banned because of easily spam able moves. and with abilities plus speed. dnite has access to espeed but is rarely used unless its about to die from what i have seen. Dnite also has a mediocre ability. 

 

3. Bulk one can argue that dnite can take a beam etc. But with the increase in cloyster lapras running around, the bulk has become irrelevant in almost every battle I have been seeing. especially with status moves flying around everywhere. status moves will hinder dnite and knock off also makes the cb sets almost worthless with any bulky water.

 

4. the update hasnt even been out for a month yet, and were going on 3 bans and we all know when dnite goes the fighting bug and chicken are next. Our goal as a competitive community is to grow it not diminish it. What new comers are going to want to stay after seeing the uber tier again. Everyone that was around 5 months ago know how this went. The competitive community was destroyed because of this.

 

5. It is only natural for us to want to build the offensive pokes first before the defensive ones. Like I stated above, were going on month number 2. Give the metagame to adapt before jumping a huge line like this.

 

6.You can say diverse movepool all you want. lets be honest (gengar) can do whatever you tell it to. You tell it to jump up and down and spin sideways its going to. Using the argument of diverse movepool and not knowing whats coming is not a valid argument at all. Ban worthy is something that is easily spammable and takes very little skill to use.

 

7. machamp hits just as hard and can also act as an anti-lead with ice punch and knock off now. my point here is, alot of pokes get the punches and i mean alot. we all know this. we are acting like dnite can just come in randomly and fire away dclaw.

 

8. yes when dnite comes in you have to make a decision on what the hell that thing is going to do. but isnt that the point? the whole entire game in mindlessly clicking why would we want the "competitive atmosphere" like that ? like i have stated before, (gengar) comes in and your in the same situation dnite puts u in. Tell me to go make a gengar thread then? Why so we have more uber tiers for no reason just because we dont have full on counters?

 

9. last point: for everyone that wanted this split, people told you this would happen but being naive those people were ignored and called noobs. Imagine that our community putting other people down.  now that we have it because you wanted it without the abilities, gen 4 moves, and move upgrades we have to deal with this. Let the metagame adapt till we get those upgrades hopefully soon. Dnite is not broken, it can be dealt with. Dnite hits extremely hard when predicted right. but when you predict wrong, the tables are flipped. there is no low risk/high reward like people are saying. there is a huge risk/high reward. Against a proper team built for tournament play you have to chose between keeping it alive or fleeing and getting set up on. Rather its sweeper/spikes/explosion, etc either way to break a whole in dnite which usually breaks that team. Most teams that use dnite are built around it. Dnite needs support and alot. It needs waters,steels to back it up which usually leaves one sweeper left to worry about or a broken core. Either way dnite doesn't = mence or ttar where you can throw it on any team easily and go play for it to reach top potential. (INB4 you dont play in tournaments comes in)

Edited February 12, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[Gunthug]

not thinking about the future of what if we ban dnite puts us in the same situation we were 6 months ago. I understand that it should only revolve around it only but if that's the case then were heading back to stall meta. We complain on how to grow the community but dwindle back into the ways that force people out of it. Dnite is stopped with a proper team built. If you go and just throw a bunch of pokes together without thinking about how to stop it, yes you will get wrecked. Does that mean its ban worth? No it means its a poke that needs proper planning against it. Ive yet to see proper arguments based on reasons to ban it. They are all based on perfect prediction. And according to you guys and girls that is not a proper ban appeal. And b4 GUNTHUG comes in here and says i use DNITE blah blah blah, its not true. 

 

Once again, it will not put us in the same situation we were in 6 months ago, because the meta is much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much (get it?) different than it was 6 months ago. I don't know why I have to keep reminding you of this. If you build a puzzle that looks like a forest and remove 10 pieces, itll look one way. If you then build a puzzle that looks like an ocean, and remove 10 pieces, will it look like the first puzzle did minus the 10 pieces? It's baffling that I have to use such a simplistic analogy, but it seems to be the only way you'll get it across your head that your slippery slope argument is inherently flawed.

 

I never said you used Dnite, btw. FIgured you were more of an HP flying aero guy nowadays

 

Reasons why I am against it:

 

1: for it to be used at full potential, you need perfect prediction like stated above. dclaw hits hard but has to not hit steels, bulky water slowbro etc. tpunch has to hit waters only for it to be useful. but risks swampert jolt rhydon etc set ups. I could keep going on with all the moves but you guys get the point.

 

You don't really need perfect prediction, as it's usually pretty obvious what's coming to deal with dnite (considering there are so few things that can deal with it). Plus, there's realy no need to bring CB dnite in early in the match when you haven't scouted out your opponents team yet. You can learn about your opponents team, then send in Dnite and react accordingly. Remember that the simple addition of magnetons makes your steel problem go away, meaning dclaw can tear holes in teams (even ones w/slowbro and vap)

 

2. mence and ttar was banned because of easily spam able moves. and with abilities plus speed. dnite has access to espeed but is rarely used unless its about to die from what i have seen. Dnite also has a mediocre ability. 

 

The fact that you just said "espeed is rarely used unless its about to die" should honestly make me stop responding to this entire comment right now, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your cat climbed across the keyboard or something to type that

 

3. Bulk one can argue that dnite can take a beam etc. But with the increase in cloyster lapras running around, the bulk has become irrelevant in almost every battle I have been seeing. especially with status moves flying around everywhere. status moves will hinder dnite and knock off also makes the cb sets almost worthless with any bulky water.

 

Both cloyster and lapras are destroyed by superpower, a move I've seen on 90% of the dnites I've faced (not just using my own experience, though. It's a staple in CB dnite's moveset). And Knock off just isn't seen enough in OU to warrant a place in this argument, and you know that.

 

4. the update hasnt even been out for a month yet, and were going on 3 bans and we all know when dnite goes the fighting bug and chicken are next. Our goal as a competitive community is to grow it not diminish it. What new comers are going to want to stay after seeing the uber tier again. Everyone that was around 5 months ago know how this went. The competitive community was destroyed because of this.

 

Once again, stop acting like you're some sort of prophet with visions of the future. You have no idea what you're talking about. Not that it matters - leaving a broken dnite in the meta just so other pokes don't get banned doesn't make any sense. If you don't think dnite is broken, that's your opinion - but argue that it's not broken, then. Don't use this terrible, washed up slippery slope argument which has been time and time again shot down

 

Also why will newcomers be deterred from comp if the meta is balanced? I think that would attract newcomers more than deter them

 

5. It is only natural for us to want to build the offensive pokes first before the defensive ones. Like I stated above, were going on month number 2. Give the metagame to adapt before jumping a huge line like this.

 

Holy shit i'm only halfway through this list? Alright so heres the thing, and I need you to listen closely to this: DNITE IS STOPPING THE META FROM EVOLVING. It's unhealthy, because it's too good not to use, and so everything is developing AROUND dnite. That's called centralizing

 

6.You can say diverse movepool all you want. lets be honest (gengar) can do whatever you tell it to. You tell it to jump up and down and spin sideways its going to. Using the argument of diverse movepool and not knowing whats coming is not a valid argument at all. Ban worthy is something that is easily spammable and takes very little skill to use.

 

You're much smarter than this, xcel, and I know it. You know damn well that its diverse movepool is not a primary argument for the dnite ban - it's a supplementary argument. You know the difference between those two terms? Speaking of terms, I've got something to share with you again (i'm sure youve been linked it before)

 

[spoiler]

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

[/spoiler]

THESE are what makes a pokemon ban worthy. Your definition you gave is for "uncompetitive." Can Gengar, with its diverse movepool, sweep through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort? IMO no it certainly can't. For the most part, it's dealt with pretty effectively by the powerful special walls we have. And gimmicky sets like FP and sub/disable lose extremely valuable coverage moves, and are usually dealt with by at least something you bring on your team. But thisthread isn't about gengar, its about dnite, so quit bringing gengar up

 

7. machamp hits just as hard and can also act as an anti-lead with ice punch and knock off now. my point here is, alot of pokes get the punches and i mean alot. we all know this. we are acting like dnite can just come in randomly and fire away dclaw.

 

lol

 

8. yes when dnite comes in you have to make a decision on what the hell that thing is going to do. but isnt that the point? the whole entire game in mindlessly clicking why would we want the "competitive atmosphere" like that ? like i have stated before, (gengar) comes in and your in the same situation dnite puts u in. Tell me to go make a gengar thread then? Why so we have more uber tiers for no reason just because we dont have full on counters?

 

Enough with the gengar comparisons.

 

9. last point: for everyone that wanted this split, people told you this would happen but being naive those people were ignored and called noobs. Imagine that our community putting other people down.  now that we have it because you wanted it without the abilities, gen 4 moves, and move upgrades we have to deal with this. Let the metagame adapt till we get those upgrades hopefully soon. Dnite is not broken, it can be dealt with. Dnite hits extremely hard when predicted right. but when you predict wrong, the tables are flipped. there is no low risk/high reward like people are saying. there is a huge risk/high reward. Against a proper team built for tournament play you have to chose between keeping it alive or fleeing and getting set up on. Rather its sweeper/spikes/explosion, etc either way to break a whole in dnite which usually breaks that team. Most teams that use dnite are built around it. Dnite needs support and alot. It needs waters,steels to back it up which usually leaves one sweeper left to worry about or a broken core. Either way dnite doesn't = mence or ttar where you can throw it on any team easily and go play for it to reach top potential. (INB4 you dont play in tournaments comes in)

 

I literally haven't seen the "you don't play in tournaments" thrown at you asingle time, and yet you mention it every single post you make. You seem a bit insecure, bro. But yeah, here's the thing: The physical special split was the best thing to happen to this game since it was created. If dnite gets banned, that won't change that. In fact, I don't fucking care if pokemon get banned or not. I just want a balanced metagame, and unlike you, I'm not willing to sit back like a lazy POS and just say "nah guys its fine." I want to help MAKE a balanced metagame. If pokes have to get banned, then so be it. I'll make new comps to replace the ones I can't use anymore, instead of bitching and moaning about it

[DrCraig]

@Excel

1. Can't justify prediction very much when it has a huge movepool and multiple sets. You don't magically find out what set it is running.

2.This point doesn't even make sense. Also extreme speed ohkos or severely damages almost every poke that is faster than it. Run the calcs.

3. Cloyster and Lapras aren't durable with their lack of quick recovery moves that vapo and bro have. Bro is the best check we have, and is a check because of the looming thunderbolt. Dnite can survive ice beams by the way. Also, how is "Dnite could switch in on status" an arguement? If you're dumb enough to let it get statused, what does that have to do with anything? Why are you swicthing in on a knock off user? (Knock off isn't the best even if its a solution in your eyes, all it does is take of CB. Dnite isn't dead.)

4. Lets focus on dragonite, this point makes no sense at all.

5. What

6.Gengar is not Dragonite by the way. Gengar doesnt run a physical set, doesn't have have a beast spammable move, huge bulk, a priority move, and what not. Gengar isn't relevant to your dumb point about diverse movesets.

7. If you come in on an ice punch you're not using dragonite correctly. Plain and simple. You should take a minute to look at the nice resistances Dnite has and the immunity to ground. It's even bulky, wow. That's why we say it can switch in a lot.

8. What

9. The point is to discuss Dnite predicting correctly, Wtf is this pint even


Just because you made a bunch of unorganized points that are numbered doesn't mean they make a logical argument or any sense at all.

[Excelimpulse]

can dnight sweep through a whole team without proper prediction? Uhm I'm going to say no.

Who says I don't want a healthy metagame? Because I dint agree with dnite? It's slow af the ability is awful. And the only argument for it is when you predict perfectly.

You can't spam tpunch. you can't spam fire punch.

idc who gets banned either but when dnite serves as a benefit more then a weakness for our meta it's worth fighting for. I don't want stall and wall back to where it's the only way you can win. You can say fkygon can be used but it isn't denting walls like dnite is.

other pokes can't fill it to where walls will still not outclass it.

Sit back and think about it. Your willing to let multiple pokes get banned just so you can run a flygon and lose because walls are more op then the offense. How strong do you think slowbro gonna get with dnjte gyardos heracrkss blaziken all gone. And then not even end up with a balanced metagame.

Dnite is the one being discussed but we all know what's next. Think ahead.

Btw not insecure multiple people like old keith have told me this after they lose 5-1 and rambol on and say play in a tournament. Idc what you or anyone think about me on here.

I dint have a problem with you gunthug but seriously get off the high horse and think ahead. You can say you would rather build new offensive but not defensive pokes now?

[DrCraig]

Gunt it's not worth the energy. This is an arguement with a wall. You just can't get a response that makes sense. He's not even adressing any point you brought up. The ban is inevitable, who cares if he doesn't agree.

[Gunthug]

can dnight sweep through a whole team without proper prediction? Uhm I'm going to say no.

 

forget about prediction. Remember, you can argue prediction on both sides and you just end up going in circles. Ask yourself this question: does dnite have the potential to sweep through a large majority of teams? In my opinion, aside from the teams exclusively devoted to bringing dnite down (multiple bulky waters, multiple steels), then yes, it can.

Who says I don't want a healthy metagame? Because I dint agree with dnite? It's slow af the ability is awful. And the only argument for it is when you predict perfectly.

 

You don't want a healthy metagame, you've basically said this yourself. One of your first posts on this thread was "We'll never get a perfectly balanced meta" and you basically suggested that we just stop trying for one.

You can't spam tpunch. you can't spam fire punch.

 

Being able to spam one move over and over is not the only criteria for a ban. That's enough to get you quick banned (like mence and ttar), but a quickban isn't the only form of ban. You can also look at 2 months of OU tourneys and glean whether a certain pokemon is uber

idc who gets banned either but when dnite serves as a benefit more then a weakness for our meta it's worth fighting for. I don't want stall and wall back to where it's the only way you can win. You can say fkygon can be used but it isn't denting walls like dnite is.

 

How is dnite a benefit to our meta? Your answer is probably: it's keeping other pokes from being banned. You'll have to do better than that. And why can't flygon be used? Because it's not as stupidly overpowering as dnite? That's a good thing - itll take more skill and strategy to succeed with flygon than it does w/dnite. That's healthy

other pokes can't fill it to where walls will still not outclass it.

 

How do you know? How much experience do you have in a physical/special split meta with these pokes and no dnite? Seriously, I'm not gonna address the rest of your post because I really want you to answer this question. Xcel, since we literally have a brand new, completely unique meta here that has never been seen before in any pokemon game (gen 3 pokes with gen 4 mechanics but no gen 4 moves, and actually missing some gen 3 pokes) - how can you claim to know what will happen w/o dnite? 

 

Gunt it's not worth the energy. This is an arguement with a wall. You just can't get a response that makes sense. He's not even adressing any point you brought up. The ban is inevitable, who cares if he doesn't agree.

I'm a glutton for punishment

[Robofiend]

Dnite is the one being discussed but we all know what's next. Think ahead.

 

This type of thinking isn't productive to tiering discussions. We will ban whatever is broken (including walls) if need be.

 

I don't think Heracross, Blaziken, Flygon, Gyarados or Metagross really have the potential to be as devastating as Dragonite does because they can't spam STAB moves as well. Most of these pokemon have the potential to dent Slowbro, Vaporeon, Swampert, and a number of other physical walls that might try and stop them, so it's not like we're losing offense, we're just gaining more options for physical attackers. Dragonite's too good at what it does to stay and requires little thought or effort to use. The same cannot be said of Gyara, Metagross, or Heracross, all of whom have well resisted STABs and other shortcomings.

[Excelimpulse]

Gunt it's not worth the energy. This is an arguement with a wall. You just can't get a response that makes sense. He's not even adressing any point you brought up. The ban is inevitable, who cares if he doesn't agree.

Exactly whenevr a thread goes up it gets banned once the same few people have power come in and say it's op.

What arguments were made saying it needs banned. Because dnite can tpunch skowbro and vap? And then risk swampert coming in on your failed prediction?

Your basing all your arguments off of perfect predictions. like I have said before dnite has 5 move slot syndrome. If you run tpunch and superpower your giving up eq that hits metagross. all of these assumptions are based off a perfect moves that hit everything to its max. Spamming dclaw fire blast on a mix mence is completky different then having a low speed no ability poke doing it.

blows my mind that this will get banned on perfect prediction.

Gyarados is unresisted, metagross is unresisted? What? It gets bolt beam punches. Are u serious right now. Gyardos gets all 3 moves that hit everything with the dragons gone.

Oh wait heracorss vkaziken endure rev won't be to op? What a joke. Edited February 12, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DaftCoolio]

get off the high horse and think ahead.

 

[spoiler]  [/spoiler]

 

 

but srsly people are reading your posts and making logical replies, plz feel free to do the same

[DrCraig]

Exactly whenevr a thread goes up it gets banned once the same few people have power come in and say it's op.
What arguments were made saying it needs banned. Because dnite can tpunch skowbro and vap? And then risk swampert coming in on your failed prediction?
Your basing all your arguments off of perfect predictions. like I have said before dnite has 5 move slot syndrome. If you run tpunch and superpower your giving up eq that hits metagross. all of these assumptions are based off a perfect moves that hit everything to its max. Spamming dclaw fire blast on a mix mence is completky different then having a low speed no ability poke doing it.
blows my mind that this will get banned on perfect prediction.

reply to Gunt pls don't dance around

[NikhilR]

I agree with Craig, I stopped arguing with Xcel when he brought up the ban for machamp/medicham because of their access to ele punches, lol.