[Discussion] Reversal

[codylramey]

Click endure click reversal when ghosts are gone. make sure spikes are gone.

First of all you only need to make sure the spikes are gone if you have a subversal poke.Second you have to have a set up move to sweep with a reversal poke. Be it SD on hera, ddance on gyara, or bulk up on primeape you have to use one of those moves to sweep. So you have to bring in the poke, set up boost, THEN you can endure and hope ur opponent doesnt predict it. Also if you get a little bit of damage on them and they dont have leftie recovery then they are prolly endursal or CB so predicting isnt out of the question

Edited February 14, 2015 by codylramey

[Kiliminati]

Click endure click reversal when ghosts are gone. make sure spikes are gone.

10/10 logic

[Excelimpulse]

First of all you only need to make sure the spikes are gone if you have a subversal poke.Second you have to have a set up move to sweep with a reversal poke. Be it SD on hera, ddance on gyara, or bulk up on primeape you have to use one of those moves to sweep. So you have to bring in the poke, set up boost, THEN you can endure and hope ur opponent doesnt predict it. Also if you get a little bit of damage on them and they dont have leftie recovery then they are prolly endursal or CB so predicting isnt out of the question

Yes but it still doesn't do anything even if you know what it is. If your not packing priority and you can keep spikes down that thing is get the endure down And taking most of your team down if lacking what I said previously.

So then you have to centralize pokes around that. And we only have one legit ou and its not even a major threat.(arcanine) Edited February 15, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[Robofiend]

Yes but it still doesn't do anything even if you know what it is. If your not packing priority and you can keep spikes down that thing is get the endure down And taking most of your team down if lacking what I said previously.

So then you have to centralize pokes around that. And we only have one legit ou and its not even a major threat.(arcanine)

 

 

I saw like 5 Arcanines today in official matches today. Also saw many Weezings and Gengars, they all check reversal pretty well.

[Kizhaz]

We should add weakness policy to make endureversal more threatening

[Excelimpulse]

I saw like 5 Arcanines today in official matches today. Also saw many Weezings and Gengars, they all check reversal pretty well.

centralizing Arcanine. Forced to run weezing or gengar fun times

[Senile]

centralizing Arcanine. Forced to run weezing or gengar fun times

You're right. Come on everyone, let's ban Starmie; It's forcing people to run Blissey or Snorlax.( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[RyoOhsora]

You're right. Come on everyone, let's ban Starmie; It's forcing people to run Blissey or Snorlax.( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

don't forget any other special sweeper out there ;)

[Senile]

don't forget any other special sweeper out there ;)

Just like how there's multiple reversal sweepers and multiple reasons to run Arcanine/Weezing/Gengar other than just Reversal, hence the ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).

[RyoOhsora]

Just like how there's multiple reversal sweepers and multiple reasons to run Arcanine/Weezing/Gengar other than just Reversal, hence the ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).

exactly.

[Excelimpulse]

Just like how there's multiple reversal sweepers and multiple reasons to run Arcanine/Weezing/Gengar other than just Reversal, hence the ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).

Weezing = sitting duck in a normal meta. Arcanine = bad and doesn't have anything good to offer. Has espeed and that's about it. Lacks willo to even help it's typing.

And gengar isn't realibke if salac is activated and has to come in on megahorn blaze kick etc. So you are forced to sac a poke because of it.

Justifying that one of the easiest set up moves is competitive makes me wonder how competitive this community will ever get. When A noob can easily do it and win a game because of it it's not really competitive.

You can argue it's not broken blah blah but if your allowing less skilled players to win because of that just like in the wall and stall days ( waiting on a critical) That's sad.

[Senile]

Weezing = sitting duck in a normal meta. Arcanine = bad and doesn't have anything good to offer. Has espeed and that's about it. Lacks willo to even help it's typing.
And gengar isn't realibke if salac is activated and has to come in on megahorn blaze kick etc. So you are forced to sac a poke because of it.
Justifying that one of the easiest set up moves is competitive makes me wonder how competitive this community will ever get. When A noob can easily do it and win a game because of it it's not really competitive.
You can argue it's not broken blah blah but if your allowing less skilled players to win because of that just like in the wall and stall days ( waiting on a critical) That's sad.

You can say those pokemon are bad all you want, but numbers don't lie: http://i.imgur.com/o26WDtJ.png

Even before the dnite ban, Weezing and Arcanine were seeing good usage. Arcanine put in quite a bit of work in the battles I saw him. Just because you're ignorant of the current metagame isn't a good reason to disregard actually viable pokemon.

As for your insistence that Reversal is uncompetitive, I'm going to go ahead and say it's not, you're using that word wrong. Here is a guide which explains it:

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/47727-tiering-and-you/

If, after reading this, you still insist on going on about how "uncompetitive" reversal is when that's not how it works, then your arguments won't get you anywhere but ignored. You can try and argue that it's overpowered, but even if you manage that, you definitely shouldn't expect action anytime soon, considering there's barely been any time to adjust.

With that being said, I'm absolutely certain that your response will be about how you still think reversal is uncompetitive, in which case, I can't help you.

[OldKeith]

Reversal is not uncompetitive at all, and if you have trouble facing it, you need to get a bit better.

 

If the reversal user relies on substitute, it just cannot come in on any attack, and spikes ruin it unless it is Gyarados. Having substitute also makes it helpless against fake out, a move I am beginning to see more in PvP.

 

If the reversal user relies on endure, you can pick up those hints and be careful how you play around the endures, such as statusing it or attacking it with a weaker move.

 

Once you scare them out with a priority user, they lose the speed boost and they become easy prey for many things.

[Excelimpulse]

Reversal is not uncompetitive at all, and if you have trouble facing it, you need to get a bit better.

If the reversal user relies on substitute, it just cannot come in on any attack, and spikes ruin it unless it is Gyarados. Having substitute also makes it helpless against fake out, a move I am beginning to see more in PvP.

If the reversal user relies on endure, you can pick up those hints and be careful how you play around the endures, such as statusing it or attacking it with a weaker move.

Once you scare them out with a priority user, they lose the speed boost and they become easy prey for many things.

and we have one arcanine that's it. Centralizing and putting quick attack on a poke just to stop it is like hail on blissey

And saying you need to get a bit better I could say the samethijg with all the previous bans just learn how to predict. Same concept argument invalid according to what was said over the last month.

and numbers do lie. They don't tell the whole story in why thfor used and for how effective they are.

And status moves on heracross do not work we all know that.

Just cause you can run 10 yard dash fast for a lineman in football does not make you great.

Numbers lie all the time. Edited February 15, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DrCraig]

Just cause you can run 10 yard dash fast for a lineman in football does not make you great.

This analogy. GG.

[semjon]

and we have one arcanine that's it.

Pika pika

[NikhilR]

I wouldn't say Reversal is uncompetitive, but it's definitely easy to set up with Hera. Imo Hera is pretty bulky and if you're with the subset, you're most likely going to be 2hko'd by things. In this case the first turn can be used to swords dance and the next turn you can sub. You may not be at exactly 1% hp, but you'll be at a decent amount of hp to wreck things at +2 Reversal and boosted Megahorn. If you don't have weezing, it'll be problematic.

 

The endure ones are easier to deal with especially when you have gengar since you can just sub when it endures.

 

The same applies for Blaziken also imo but it's got more weaknesses than heracross thus allowing yourself to get to +2 becomes harder.

[Excelimpulse]

I wouldn't say Reversal is uncompetitive, but it's definitely easy to set up with Hera. Imo Hera is pretty bulky and if you're with the subset, you're most likely going to be 2hko'd by things. In this case the first turn can be used to swords dance and the next turn you can sub. You may not be at exactly 1% hp, but you'll be at a decent amount of hp to wreck things at +2 Reversal and boosted Megahorn. If you don't have weezing, it'll be problematic.

The endure ones are easier to deal with especially when you have gengar since you can just sub when it endures.

The same applies for Blaziken also imo but it's got more weaknesses than heracross thus allowing yourself to get to +2 becomes harder.

Reversal isn't uncompetitive when dnite and ttar are possible to be in the mix. Because it's risky. But when they are removed its almost if wide open

[DrCraig]

Reversal isn't uncompetitive when dnite and ttar are possible to be in the mix. Because it's risky. But when they are removed its almost if wide open

Bringing back Dnite and Ttar to stop reversal is nonsensical.

[NikhilR]

Reversal isn't uncompetitive when dnite and ttar are possible to be in the mix. Because it's risky. But when they are removed its almost if wide open

 

Your solution to the problem is creating another problem.

[codylramey]

 Espeed arcanine is not a bad. Arc is good, i have used him for a long time. I know im not a shining example of a good comp player but i can testify to how good he actually is. His espeed even allows him to take out jolteon which can be a problem after ur spcl wall is taken out. Howl Double kick allows him to take blissey, oveheat/FB kills steels, intemidate allows him to serve as a semi wall against many physical attackers, bulky variants will toxic the oppoents bulky waters, and espedd allows him to be the second best revenge killer in the game. Hes not a gimik nor is he NEEDED to deal with reversal users.

Edited February 15, 2015 by codylramey

[Shaniqualela]

Arcanine is far from a gimmick...

[fredrichnietze]

NOBODY WANTS YOUR SASS.

unless your name is emlee

 

also agreed this is preemptive (pretend i quoted the misspelled vrs cause lazy) and reversal does not look like a problem to me. you only need to run 1 priority move to completely shut down all sub/endure + reversal pokes and it's not like thats the only reason to run priority. even if you dont run priority you can run roar/ww and just force a switch whenever the sub/endure + reversal poke comes out and just not let it set up. or you can run something like rock blast rhydon if you REALLY scared.

[Excelimpulse]

Your solution to the problem is creating another problem.

I didn't create the problem. You guys wanted pokes that rely on prediction gone because the chance of getting hit hard.now we have pokes that can more easy and have to play at a slower pace.

It doesn't matter if arc is usuable or not relying on it to be the only counter isnt a good idea.

Centralizing remember. Status effects arnt a rwalible solution because of the likes of guts.

What I'm saying is endure rev pokes can sweep a lot easier then a prediction on a cb poke that can easily be countered with protect.

[Shaniqualela]

By your logic, you're suggesting every Pokemon should run protect to counter choice band dragonite, that's centralizing.

And Arcanine isn't the only counter to endursal.

Taunt, not attacking it when it endures, roar/ww, any priority, status moves, or if you have a setup sweeper you can even dd or sd or sub on their endure if you predict right and get a huge advantage