[UU Discussion] Scizor (Banned from UU to BL)

[NikhilR]

Because of your other pokemon you are trying to get banned, Houndoom. Although these are also wrecked fairly well by Crunch or Pursuit which most of the heavy hitting CB Normal-types carry. 

 

Which is why you carry a defensive core for banded pokemon. 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 52-62 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

 

Other than Kanga and Granbull, what other normal type gets crunch? Also granbull too strong, pls ban.

 

The difference between Scizor and other banded normal types is the access to SD. Banded pokemon are much easier to deal with than Swords Dance users. Normal types like Zangoose could fit the criteria of being too strong with access to SD but Kanga, Stantler and Swellow have no means of boosting their stats and so if they want to hit as hard as possible, they'll need to run a banded set, which as I have mentioned earlier, is easier to deal with. 

[DoubleJ]

Ban Everything.

 

 

I don't want to go down the road you're leading us toward. It sounds terrible and Zebra friendly. 

[BurntZebra]

I don't want to go down the road you're leading us toward. It sounds terrible and Zebra friendly. 

shuckle pities the fool who tries to sweep with granbull

[DoubleJ]

shuckle pities the fool who tries to sweep with granbull

 

u wot m8?

 

Oh right it does. RIP Granbull, go back to the depths of NU please. 

[DoubleJ]

Scizor is a very effective wall-breaker that can be stopped by several notable pokes dependent on its moveset. The most common moveset that I have seen in UU thus far appears to be:

 

Bulky w/ Swords Dance, Steel Wing, Superpower, Morning Sun

 

This set though is stopped quite well by Slowking. The benefit of Slowking is that it also has enough bulk to reliably not be Pursuit trapped unless it is at low health. With access to Slack-Off, Slowking makes for an impressive check to Scizor, resisting both of its primary attack options and hitting back with neutral STAB Surf or Flamethrower if it so chooses. An offensive style of play can also defend against Scizor considering its low speed and 4x Weakness to Fire Attacks. Having access to Fire Punch, HP Fire, and various other Fire attacks makes using Scizor risky when looking at an offensively oriented team. You can make a very balanced team of pokemon that all carry a Fire-attack if you so choose, slowing down other walls such as Vileplume, Steelix, and Exeggutor. What you need to do though is avoid having risks for Scizor to set-up and sweep you. These risks would include Claydol without HP Fire, Clefable without Flamethrower, Vileplume without HP Fire, and various other things that Scizor can switch freely into, Swords Dance, and Morning Sun away any accrued damage. 

 

So basically what I'm saying here is that if you bring a wall-team against a Scizor and lack an answer for it, you will most definitely have a tough time against it considering it itself is a "wall breaker". Certain walls can defend against Scizor by carrying flamethrower, such as Clefable. This limits the opportunities for Scizor to switch in and set-up a Swords Dance. 

 

With all of this in mind, I want to touch on the idea that Scizor is a healthy addition to our UU environment in my opinion. Some benefits to using Scizor would be its ability to break through some of the common walls, its immunity to Toxic, and its resistance to Normal-type attacks which are deadly. We have a limited number of pokemon that can resist STAB Normal-attacks well, and that list only goes down further when you toss on CB. Having an additional poke immune to Toxic is very beneficial as well. Toxic spam has become so common that in the official today I played an opponent that had 4 of his 6 pokes carrying this move. Either this is our only answer to a stall method, or this is just the result of stall itself. 

 

Nevertheless, as I've said countless times in countless other threads the decision to make a ban is ultimately up to the respective councils. We as a community can only share our insight. If something is deemed healthy or determined to not be worthy of a ban, we simply need to adjust for that risk as it continues to be a part of our tier. 

[Robofiend]

I'm with JJ on this one, Scizor rekts wall teams (without a HP fire/Flame poke) but it's so slow that it can't really contend with offense, especially considering the number of faster Fire Punchers and Flame Throwers we have in higher speed tiers.

[DrCraig]

Yea too good, they didn't believe me.

[NikhilR]

There is no way I am going to run flamethrower on Clefable just to prevent it from switching in. Seismic toss is better in so many ways because it hits most things harder than flamethrower does. Scizor can still beat Clefable1v1 which would prove the whole situation to be pointless. It has a very easy way of breaking walls with SD and that is where my concern lies. Forcing myself to run hp fire on plume just to deal with this one pokemon is another problem. You're sacking a very important moveslot just for one pokemon. It doesn't matter how slow Scizor is because of how bulky it is and its access to morning sun. 

 

Running flame on slowking would be even more worse considering how surf/psychic are my main stab attacks. Giving up one stab attack for one particular pokemon, wtf. I lost to a scizor despite having 2 answers for it, may be I should've played around better but my point is that despite having answers to it, you can still be beaten by it.

 

Can someone give me examples of pokemon that run hp fire/fire punch and can safely switch into scizor? Kangaskhan, Zangoose lose due to Superpower. The excuse of having another pokemon for normal resist is pointless when that same pokemon runs fire punch so using that to keep scizor in UU is not a valid reason. 

 

The way I see it is that some people are just so anti stall that they're willing to let a too good of a wall breaker just break through teams.

 

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 150 Def Scizor: 136-160 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Zangoose Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 150 Def Scizor: 152-180 (85.8 - 101.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

As you can clearly see here, these pokemon don't even ohko Scizor, while a +2 Scizor with leftovers recovery can ohko them back.

 

EDIT:

 

Rhydon, a pokemon with 4x weaknesses to surf/grass, 2x weaknesses to ice, fight, ground, steel and with same attack stat, higher hp but lower spdef base stat and no move for instant recovery was deemed too strong for the tier.

 

Where is the fucking logic!

Edited April 10, 2015 by NikhilR

[Robofiend]

There is no way I am going to run flamethrower on Clefable just to prevent it from switching in. Seismic toss is better in so many ways because it hits most things harder than flamethrower does. Scizor can still beat Clefable1v1 which would prove the whole situation to be pointless. It has a very easy way of breaking walls with SD and that is where my concern lies. Forcing myself to run hp fire on plume just to deal with this one pokemon is another problem. You're sacking a very important moveslot just for one pokemon. It doesn't matter how slow Scizor is because of how bulky it is and its access to morning sun. 

 

Maybe you should? I think it's important for balance to have pokemon that demand coverage and resist common attacking types. In OU: Pursuit on Snorlax, Theif on Heracross, Thunderpunch on Flygon, and Aerial Ace on Dugtrio are all strictly for one pokemon as well (Starmie, Gengar, Skarmory, Heracross, respectively), but that doesn't mean that any of the listed pokemon are de facto Uber, it just means they're worth covering. You're also neglecting that Fire covers Steelix, Vileplume and Breloom, so it's not like that's the ONLY reason to run a Fire move.

 

Running flame on slowking would be even more worse considering how surf/psychic are my main stab attacks. Giving up one stab attack for one particular pokemon, wtf. I lost to a scizor despite having 2 answers for it, may be I should've played around better but my point is that despite having answers to it, you can still be beaten by it.

 

The same can be said of many offensive threats. Heracross can snipe your Gengar with Theif, Snorlax can run Earthquake to beat Rhydon and Gyarados can Taunt your Skarmory into submission while it sets up. In all three cases you can lose, despite having answers to the Pokemon in question. In 6th Gen the only reason to run Ice Beam or Fire Blast on some pokemon is to kill Landorus-T or Ferrothorn, but no one's saying they're Uber because they make you think twice about movesets. Having 2 STABs is great, but having a metagame where you don't need to choose between moves isn't - it makes for homogenous set-building and team building. 

 

Can someone give me examples of pokemon that run hp fire/fire punch and can safely switch into scizor? Kangaskhan, Zangoose lose due to Superpower. The excuse of having another pokemon for normal resist is pointless when that same pokemon runs fire punch so using that to keep scizor in UU is not a valid reason. 

 

The way I see it is that some people are just so anti stall that they're willing to let a too good of a wall breaker just break through teams.

 

Not really: we let go of Charizard, Marowak, Hariyama (soon, I think), Machamp, Espeon, etc. because of how impossible it is to switch in on them. 

 

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 150 Def Scizor: 136-160 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Zangoose Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 150 Def Scizor: 152-180 (85.8 - 101.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

As you can clearly see here, these pokemon don't even ohko Scizor, while a +2 Scizor with leftovers recovery can ohko them back.

 

True

 

252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Blaze Kick vs. 104 HP / 152 Def Scizor: 452-536 (147.2 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Manectric Flamethrower vs. 104 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 328-388 (106.8 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Slowking Flamethrower vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 332-392 (108.1 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Torkoal Flamethrower vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 432-508 (140.7 - 165.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (i know no one uses it)

 

Even in the example given above, Scizor's pretty much toast when a Fire Puncher gets into play: if it takes a Fire Punch and retaliates for the kill it's going have at best 30% HP and lack the capability to set up again next time it gets into play. At any rate, I don't see any reason why being able to get OHKO'd or not is reason to ban something.

 

Also, depending on your set, Scizors coverage options are going to be limited. Either its Steel Wing + Superpower for Coverage or Return + Theif or something, but in any event there are hard resists to these combinations (Slowking/Steelix). If you forgo healing you can cover more at the price of not being as scary defensively.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Rhydon, a pokemon with 4x weaknesses to surf/grass, 2x weaknesses to ice, fight, ground, steel and with same attack stat, higher hp but lower spdef base stat and no move for instant recovery was deemed too strong for the tier.

 

Charizard is weak to Electric, Water and Rock but got banned from UU. Altaria only gets 1-shotted by Ice moves, or the rare Rock Slide. Sableye, a pokemon with no weaknesses and reasonable bulk (especially after setting up), is allowed in UU. As you can tell, having a 4x weakness, or lack thereof doesn't have anything to do with Uber-ness.

 

Where is the fucking logic!

[ThinkNice]

In a diverse metagame with a lot of threats you bet your ass that you are going tosack a move to deal with said threat. It is not balance if you can run every optimal set on every staller. Good metagames will force you to sway from 'optimal' sets to win, creating variety. You have to make decisions on your movesets and yes you have to actually think about each individual moveset and how all 6 support each pther. Odd huh?

[NikhilR]

 

There is no way I am going to run flamethrower on Clefable just to prevent it from switching in. Seismic toss is better in so many ways because it hits most things harder than flamethrower does. Scizor can still beat Clefable1v1 which would prove the whole situation to be pointless. It has a very easy way of breaking walls with SD and that is where my concern lies. Forcing myself to run hp fire on plume just to deal with this one pokemon is another problem. You're sacking a very important moveslot just for one pokemon. It doesn't matter how slow Scizor is because of how bulky it is and its access to morning sun. 

 

Maybe you should? I think it's important for balance to have pokemon that demand coverage and resist common attacking types. In OU: Pursuit on Snorlax, Theif on Heracross, Thunderpunch on Flygon, and Aerial Ace on Dugtrio are all strictly for one pokemon as well (Starmie, Gengar, Skarmory, Heracross, respectively), but that doesn't mean that any of the listed pokemon are de facto Uber, it just means they're worth covering. You're also neglecting that Fire covers Steelix, Vileplume and Breloom, so it's not like that's the ONLY reason to run a Fire move.

 

Running flame on slowking would be even more worse considering how surf/psychic are my main stab attacks. Giving up one stab attack for one particular pokemon, wtf. I lost to a scizor despite having 2 answers for it, may be I should've played around better but my point is that despite having answers to it, you can still be beaten by it.

 

The same can be said of many offensive threats. Heracross can snipe your Gengar with Theif, Snorlax can run Earthquake to beat Rhydon and Gyarados can Taunt your Skarmory into submission while it sets up. In all three cases you can lose, despite having answers to the Pokemon in question. In 6th Gen the only reason to run Ice Beam or Fire Blast on some pokemon is to kill Landorus-T or Ferrothorn, but no one's saying they're Uber because they make you think twice about movesets. Having 2 STABs is great, but having a metagame where you don't need to choose between moves isn't - it makes for uguugenous set-building and team building. 

 

Can someone give me examples of pokemon that run hp fire/fire punch and can safely switch into scizor? Kangaskhan, Zangoose lose due to Superpower. The excuse of having another pokemon for normal resist is pointless when that same pokemon runs fire punch so using that to keep scizor in UU is not a valid reason. 

 

The way I see it is that some people are just so anti stall that they're willing to let a too good of a wall breaker just break through teams.

 

Not really: we let go of Charizard, Marowak, Hariyama (soon, I think), Machamp, Espeon, etc. because of how impossible it is to switch in on them. 

 

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 150 Def Scizor: 136-160 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Zangoose Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 150 Def Scizor: 152-180 (85.8 - 101.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

As you can clearly see here, these pokemon don't even ohko Scizor, while a +2 Scizor with leftovers recovery can ohko them back.

 

True

 

252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Blaze Kick vs. 104 HP / 152 Def Scizor: 452-536 (147.2 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Manectric Flamethrower vs. 104 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 328-388 (106.8 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Slowking Flamethrower vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 332-392 (108.1 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Torkoal Flamethrower vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 432-508 (140.7 - 165.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (i know no one uses it)

 

Even in the example given above, Scizor's pretty much toast when a Fire Puncher gets into play: if it takes a Fire Punch and retaliates for the kill it's going have at best 30% HP and lack the capability to set up again next time it gets into play. At any rate, I don't see any reason why being able to get OHKO'd or not is reason to ban something.

 

Also, depending on your set, Scizors coverage options are going to be limited. Either its Steel Wing + Superpower for Coverage or Return + Theif or something, but in any event there are hard resists to these combinations (Slowking/Steelix). If you forgo healing you can cover more at the price of not being as scary defensively.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Rhydon, a pokemon with 4x weaknesses to surf/grass, 2x weaknesses to ice, fight, ground, steel and with same attack stat, higher hp but lower spdef base stat and no move for instant recovery was deemed too strong for the tier.

 

Charizard is weak to Electric, Water and Rock but got banned from UU. Altaria only gets 1-shotted by Ice moves, or the rare Rock Slide. Sableye, a pokemon with no weaknesses and reasonable bulk (especially after setting up), is allowed in UU. As you can tell, having a 4x weakness, or lack thereof doesn't have anything to do with Uber-ness.

 

Where is the fucking logic!

 

 

Return/Double edge do same/more damage compared to Fire Punch so again, running that would be just for one pokemon. EQ hits a lot of things harder when I don't want to use double edge for the recoil damage. 

 

Pursuit on lax hits starmie, jolteon and more special sweepers. Thunderpunch ko's gyara, hits slowbro, skarm, aerodactyl etc.. Aerial Ace on dugtrio does specifically apply to one pokemon like Heracross, but I'm not prioritising Aerial Ace over another move because that is one of the best options I have got with a banded dugtrio whereas running Flamethrower on slowking is bad when I have 2 special stabs that I can make use of.

 

Skarmory is not an answer to gyara and never was. Running EQ on lax is basically your choice but then you ultimately screw yourself to Gengar.

 

Are you aware that Hariyama has already been let go of? And Charizard is not impossible to switch into imo, it's the bellydrum set that is scary but that is a whole another different point of view. 

 

When Scizor has morning sun, it can easily come into a vileplume or any pokemon that uses seismic toss or claydol or anything and recover its health making it pointless. The reason I gave this example is because one of the points to support Scizor staying in was how most pokemon get fire punch but none of the firepunchers can ko scizor while scizor can ko them back. So what's the point of running Fire Punch? Just to come in every time it gets a kill and then force it away just to wait for it to come back again and pick things off one by one?

 

Return+SteelWing is pretty great coverage. Slowking gets beaten by that. Your steelix will still do NOTHING to a Scizor with SteelWing because EQ does minimal damage and with a def boost, you're only going to do lesser damage. If you get a crit, woot, I'll just morning sun and recover that damage. Your best bet would be to roar but that's not beating Scizor, just delaying the inevitable.

 

The reason I gave the example of Rhydon is because grass/water/fight are very common moves in UU. So it limits Rhydon's switching abilities and it'll need a +2 in order to do massive damage. Clearly Rhydon is too overpowered for UU but a pokemon like Scizor which is just as or if not more powerful is still there in UU. 

 

If a pokemon can set up too easily for me without being punished, I think it deserves to go. Zard. linoone can set up bdrum and sweep easily imo and that's why they got banned.

 

 

In a diverse metagame with a lot of threats you bet your ass that you are going tosack a move to deal with said threat. It is not balance if you can run every optimal set on every staller. Good metagames will force you to sway from 'optimal' sets to win, creating variety. You have to make decisions on your movesets and yes you have to actually think about each individual moveset and how all 6 support each pther. Odd huh?

 

 

Oh hey, why don't we just unban ttar, dragonite and run fight/ice moves on every pokemon we got.

Edited April 11, 2015 by NikhilR

[YagamiNoir]

 

Return/Double edge do same/more damage compared to Fire Punch so again, running that would be just for one pokemon. EQ hits a lot of things harder when I don't want to use double edge for the recoil damage. 

 

Pursuit on lax hits starmie, jolteon and more special sweepers. Thunderpunch ko's gyara, hits slowbro and any other bulky water type. Aerial Ace on dugtrio does specifically apply to one pokemon like Heracross, but I'm not using Aerial Ace for priority for another move because that is one of the best options I have got with a banded dugtrio whereas running Flamethrower on slowking is bad when I have 2 special stabs that I can make use of.

 

Skarmory is not an answer to gyara and never was. Running EQ on lax is basically your choice but then you ultimately screw yourself to Gengar.

 

Are you aware that Hariyama has already been let go of? And Charizard is not impossible to switch into imo, it's the bellydrum set that is scary but that is a whole another different point of view. 

 

When Scizor has morning sun, it can easily come into a vileplume or any pokemon that uses seismic toss or claydol or anything and recover its health making it pointless. The reason I gave this example is because one of the points to support Scizor staying in was how most pokemon get fire punch but none of the firepunchers can ko scizor while scizor can ko them back. So what's the point of running Fire Punch? Just to come in every time it gets a kill and then force it away just to wait for it to come back again and pick things off one by one?

 

Return+SteelWing is pretty great coverage. Slowking gets beaten by that. Your steelix will still do NOTHING to a Scizor with SteelWing because EQ does minimal damage and with a def boost, you're only going to do lesser damage. If you get a crit, woot, I'll just morning sun and recover that damage. Your best bet would be to roar but that's not beating in Scizor, just delaying the inevitable.

 

The reason I gave the example of Rhydon is because grass/water/fight are very common moves in UU. So it limits Rhydon's switching abilities and it'll need a +2 in order to do massive damage. Clearly Rhydon is too overpowered for UU but a pokemon like Scizor which is just as or if not more powerful is still there in UU. 

 

If a pokemon can set up too easily for me without being punished, I think it deserves to go. Zard. linoone can set up bdrum easily imo and that's why they got banned.

 

 

 

 

Oh hey, why don't we just unban ttar, dragonite and run fight/ice moves on every pokemon we got.

 

 

Snorlax doesn't exactly need Pursuit to deal with all of them effectively, similarly as to your mention as to how Normal types have no reason to run Fire Punch when your Normal type STAB does more. Fire Punch also allows you to hit Ghost types -- although you could call me ridiculous because "everyone runs Crunch, and the like".

 

Is there a particular reason why Fire Punch is suddenly the only existing move in UU that is x4 effective against Scizor? I wonder where Flamethrower and Fire Blast went. There's also something called Sun support, although rare as it is. Sun support also makes Fire Punch a tad bit more powerful than Earthquake. Also, it's odd how Choice Band is forbidden from the equation. 

 

Oh, okay, can you please demonstrate to me how Scizor gets access to Steel Wing, Return, Swords Dance, Iron Defense and Morning Sun all at the same time?

 

Comparing Rhydon and Scizor is a pretty bad example, personally. Getting up a Sub on Rhydon was very rewarding, and Rhydon had the default power to shrekt things without having to set up anyway, even if it didn't have a Choice Band. Saying that Rhydon needs a Swords Dance to hit hard is a stretch. Scizor on the other hand, while having the same Attack stat, has less coverage and loses in terms of the BP of it's moves, and you can't complain that a Scizor without an Attack boost is difficult to fare against. Scizor doesn't exactly kill anything by default, whereas revenge killers against Rhydon need safe switches usually at the risk of it setting up a Sub first or shrekting you on the spot with good prediction. You could argue that people run to outspeed it, but Rhydon can also flinch slower threats if it runs Rock Slide, or break Subs with Rock Blast. 

 

Unlike Scizor, Charizard, Linoone and whatever faster sweeper are very difficult to revenge kill in terms of Speed. In Linoone's case, everything else that doesn't resist ExtremeSpeed is slower than Linoone, having 75% health with +6 Attack, and the whole priority factor. Charizard on the other hand hits 100 Speed and while there are faster things Sub/Salac relieves that problem to some extent. It still outspeeds a lot in the meta anyway. If Scizor gets met by something with a Fire type move the instant it uses Swords Dance it's forced to switch out, and is outsped by a fair variety of Pokemon to be forced to, and has no default really super threatening offense before it sets up a Swords Dance that exactly threatens frailer switch ins enough. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[NikhilR]

Snorlax doesn't exactly need Pursuit to deal with all of them effectively, similarly as to your mention as to how Normal types have no reason to run Fire Punch when your Normal type STAB does more. Fire Punch also allows you to hit Ghost types -- although you could call me ridiculous because "everyone runs Crunch, and the like".

 

Is there a particular reason why Fire Punch is suddenly the only existing move in UU that is x4 effective against Scizor? I wonder where Flamethrower and Fire Blast went. There's also something called Sun support, although rare as it is. Sun support also makes Fire Punch a tad bit more powerful than Earthquake. Also, it's odd how Choice Band is forbidden from the equation. 

 

Oh, okay, can you please demonstrate to me how Scizor gets access to Steel Wing, Return, Swords Dance, Iron Defense and Morning Sun all at the same time?

 

Comparing Rhydon and Scizor is a pretty bad example, personally. Getting up a Sub on Rhydon was very rewarding, and Rhydon had the default power to shrekt things without having to set up anyway, even if it didn't have a Choice Band. Saying that Rhydon needs a Swords Dance to hit hard is a stretch. Scizor on the other hand, while having the same Attack stat, has less coverage and loses in terms of the BP of it's moves, and you can't complain that a Scizor without an Attack boost is difficult to fare against. Scizor doesn't exactly kill anything by default, whereas revenge killers against Rhydon need safe switches usually at the risk of it setting up a Sub first or shrekting you on the spot with good prediction. You could argue that people run to outspeed it, but Rhydon can also flinch slower threats if it runs Rock Slide, or break Subs with Rock Blast. 

 

Unlike Scizor, Charizard, Linoone and whatever faster sweeper are very difficult to revenge kill in terms of Speed. In Linoone's case, everything else that doesn't resist ExtremeSpeed is slower than Linoone, having 75% health with +6 Attack, and the whole priority factor. Charizard on the other hand hits 100 Speed and while there are faster things Sub/Salac relieves that problem to some extent. It still outspeeds a lot in the meta anyway. If Scizor gets met by something with a Fire type move the instant it uses Swords Dance it's forced to switch out, and is outsped by a fair variety of Pokemon to be forced to, and has no default really super threatening offense before it sets up a Swords Dance that exactly threatens frailer switch ins enough. 

 

You summed it up with Snorlax, thus making Fire punch useless. Crunch hits Slowking/Exegg too.

 

Sun support? How fun is your sun support gonna be when you take damage the turn you set up fire? How are you going to switch safely into the pokemon to use sunny day? The reason choice band is forbidden is because it is inferior compared to a pokemon like kanga which likes its coverage with rest and a pokemon like zangoose that has SD. 

 

Steel Wing boosts def incase you are unaware so running Steel/Return/SD/Morning Sun still works for me while if Steelix doesn't have sharpen, it can't touch scizor offensively.

 

Getting a sub on rhydon means you lack coverage. Which means pokemon like slowking/claydol would beat it even on the switch in. I doubt Rhydon shrekts things without boosts unlike Scizor which can run both bulk/offensive. If you want me to do calcs I'll be glad to.

 

Getting a flinch is basically you fishing for luck vs a bulky water type but in a realistic scenario, even if your rhydon gets +2, it will still die to a water/grass move. But just like how most ppl like to claim we have fire punchers, we have a lot of surf/giga drain/hp grass users during those days like lanturn/golduck/xatu/ebuzz which could ko rhydon back then and can still do now. 

 

We can always run hp fight/fighting moves on our pokemon to prevent linoone from bdrumming easily. Steelix is a very valid counter to linoone and so is haunter with its access to sludgebomb. You've used a very nice "if" statement over there about scizor being met by something with access to a fire move the turn it SDs. Are you referring to a fast pokemon switching into Scizor or scizor boosting itself vs a pokemon with a fire type move? The former is solely based on prediction and if I knew you had a pokemon with a fire type move, I'd attack that very turn to prevent yourself from switching in. And if the latter, then I just have to switch and repeat the same steps I did except attack instead of SDing the next time.

Edited April 11, 2015 by NikhilR

[ThinkNice]

 

Oh hey, why don't we just unban ttar, dragonite and run fight/ice moves on every pokemon we got.

 

Don't play stupid with me.

[NikhilR]

Don't play stupid with me.

 

I don't think you're getting my point. Running hp fire/flamethrower on so many pokemon is almost the same as asking people to run fight/ice types to deal with those pokemon. Of course Scizor and the others are not the same but the manner in which you're dealing with them is.

[ThinkNice]

I don't think you're getting my point. Running hp fire/flamethrower on so many pokemon is almost the same as asking people to run fight/ice types to deal with those pokemon. Of course Scizor and the others are not the same but the manner in which you're dealing with them is.

Scizor is not even near the threat it is in UU as what Ttar or Sala would be in OU. In OU almost every Pokémon would have a move for these monsters. You don't need that with Scizor, Scizor has a few Pokes it can set up on, if one of those carries a fire move you can hit your opponent with it as long as you hold out long enough. If you sack a STAB attack or CM on Slowbro for Flamethrower, you really don't need your Vileplume to carry HP Fire, it's simply overkill. Then you probably have a Pokémon that should carry a fire move anyway and you have two fire attacks in your team, more than enough.

 

You really don't have to sack a moveslot on every Pokémon that can't threaten Scizor. And sacking one moveslot on one Pokémon is how this fucking game is played, by making choices and having a synergized team that is adapted to the meta around it. Just like how Manectric has to choose between Ice or Grass or Jolteon for that matter. If you want a game where every Pokémon is running the same set that's your problem.

[NikhilR]

Scizor is not even near the threat it is in UU as what Ttar or Sala would be in OU. In OU almost every Pokémon would have a move for these monsters. You don't need that with Scizor, Scizor has a few Pokes it can set up on, if one of those carries a fire move you can hit your opponent with it as long as you hold out long enough. If you sack a STAB attack or CM on Slowbro for Flamethrower, you really don't need your Vileplume to carry HP Fire, it's simply overkill. Then you probably have a Pokémon that should carry a fire move anyway and you have two fire attacks in your team, more than enough.

 

You really don't have to sack a moveslot on every Pokémon that can't threaten Scizor. And sacking one moveslot on one Pokémon is how this fucking game is played, by making choices and having a synergized team that is adapted to the meta around it. Just like how Manectric has to choose between Ice or Grass or Jolteon for that matter. If you want a game where every Pokémon is running the same set that's your problem.

 

It's not about how threatening it is compared to ttar or sala, it's about how easy it is to set up with scizor and how hard it is to take down. I'm sure a bulky Machamp/Hariyama/hitmontop can ko ttar, Vaporeon/Slowbro can icebeam a salamence. For me the reason for banning them apart from how strong these beasts are is because of how it forces everyone to run a particular type pokemon/move. Going by that logic shouldn't scizor be banned since it seems like flamethrower slowking is the only real valid counter? Steelix is a hard counter to linoone but still Linoone got banned, why? Because of the ease with which it sets up and espeed. If something can set up with ease and without too many risks because of how almost every pokemon around it is set up bait, then imo it needs to go. 

 

Scizor has multiple pokemon it can set up on and the pokemon that are faster than it will take a lot of dmg if it switches into a attack. Fire punches do quite a bit of damage to scizor but it can just morning sun that dmg off. Hidden power fire plume doesn't even ko a bulky scizor while steel wing is a 2hko at least on 252hp/def vileplume, so hidden power pokemon aren't that viable either. 

 

If you don't want scizor to switch in to your pokemon and start setting up, then yes you do need to sack one of your moves to kill it and in this case it would mean running flame on clefable, hp fire on porygon/vileplume. If you want a game where you'll see the same pokemon with almost the same moveset in every team, then we can start unbanning things.

Edited April 11, 2015 by NikhilR

[YagamiNoir]

You summed it up with Snorlax, thus making Fire punch useless. Crunch hits Slowking/Exegg too.

 

Sun support? How fun is your sun support gonna be when you take damage the turn you set up fire? How are you going to switch safely into the pokemon to use sunny day? The reason choice band is forbidden is because it is inferior compared to a pokemon like kanga which likes its coverage with rest and a pokemon like zangoose that has SD. 

 

Steel Wing boosts def incase you are unaware so running Steel/Return/SD/Morning Sun still works for me while if Steelix doesn't have sharpen, it can't touch scizor offensively.

 

Getting a sub on rhydon means you lack coverage. Which means pokemon like slowking/claydol would beat it even on the switch in. I doubt Rhydon shrekts things without boosts unlike Scizor which can run both bulk/offensive. If you want me to do calcs I'll be glad to.

 

Getting a flinch is basically you fishing for luck vs a bulky water type but in a realistic scenario, even if your rhydon gets +2, it will still die to a water/grass move. But just like how most ppl like to claim we have fire punchers, we have a lot of surf/giga drain/hp grass users during those days like lanturn/golduck/xatu/ebuzz which could ko rhydon back then and can still do now. 

 

We can always run hp fight/fighting moves on our pokemon to prevent linoone from bdrumming easily. Steelix is a very valid counter to linoone and so is haunter with its access to sludgebomb. You've used a very nice "if" statement over there about scizor being met by something with access to a fire move the turn it SDs. Are you referring to a fast pokemon switching into Scizor or scizor boosting itself vs a pokemon with a fire type move? The former is solely based on prediction and if I knew you had a pokemon with a fire type move, I'd attack that very turn to prevent yourself from switching in. And if the latter, then I just have to switch and repeat the same steps I did except attack instead of SDing the next time.

Double-Edge still hits harder than Crunch depending if you run it or not. This is targeted toward the aspect that some Pokemon centralize a moveslot dedicated for that Pokemon say Hidden Power Grass for Swampert or Hidden Power Electric for Gyarados; in reference to Robo's statement, Pursuit has it's other uses, but you're usually only going to hit a Gengar with it. It's not a bad thing that something with a dominant presence centralizes things to use a specific move for it, especially one that is fairly common in a tier. 

 

Nik, don't go on telling me about how you can support a Pokemon in other discussions but point out that the support I can give to something else is irrelevant just for the sake of your argument. I can say the exact same things to how risky it is for Scizor or whatever to pick up a boost and the like. No, it is not necessarily inferior, and this is taking it from the standpoint of Fire Punch, which admittedly is less distributed over options like Flamethrower or Fire Blast, and maybe even Overheat. Taking note that Scizor, as a defensive pivot switch, also commonly takes damage, maybe up to the point where Fire Punch can KO it. Besides, if you're going to assume the OHKO on Superpower versus these Normal types that are "forbidden" to run Choice Band, I could always Sub on your Superpower and exploit the -1 to kill you. 

 

It's odd how you nitpick a Rock Slide flinch chance but say the the chance that Steel Wing boosts Defense is reliable. That being said, even if you "just phaze it"or whatever it is, Steelix can still phaze it away while taking minimal damage in comparison to other set up sweepers that are phazed. I personally find Superpower but prevalent which makes Steelix pretty iffy to begin with, but be that as it may. 

 

Neither of them take a hit from Megahorn well. Well, justify them -- Scizor has a more reliable typing, but I'd be damned if you're going to tell me that Scizor's offensive capabilities are on par with Rhydon's. 

 

Like I said, it doesn't have to -- Rhydon either rekted things on the spot with Choice Band, and again a Rhydon behind a Sub is very rewarding even without Swords Dance. Scizor can't be complained to be broken with a Choice Band, nor does it have the default power that scares things from coming in, like I've said previously. Yes, Rhydon is far more easily revenge killed than Scizor, but it's offensive power scares the oblivion out of most of anything that wants to switch in on it, unlike Scizor that still has a fair about of things that can handle it. I've supplied some calcs initially in the thread.

 

I was reffering to the former. Again, you like to twist things to be convenient for your argument because "only the most advantageous situations I support can happen and are more likely to happen" or "I always get the right predictions". Likewise, the player can predict between the use of either an attacking move and Swords Dance and respond accordingly. I'd request you not to put prediction as a really relevant argument in a theoretical discussion, or anyone for that matter, since it is not dictated on a clear basis and is dependent on factors like skill and luck. Both players can predict well, but what justifies you always get the right predictions?  Pardon the mild ad hominem, but discussions between us very frequently, if not always, involve this. 

 

It's not about how threatening it is compared to ttar or sala, it's about how easy it is to set up with scizor and how hard it is to take down. I'm sure a bulky Machamp/Hariyama/hitmontop can ko ttar, Vaporeon/Slowbro can icebeam a salamence. For me the reason for banning them apart from how strong these beasts are is because of how it forces everyone to run a particular type pokemon/move. Going by that logic shouldn't scizor be banned since it seems like flamethrower slowking is the only real valid counter? Steelix is a hard counter to linoone but still Linoone got banned, why? Because of the ease with which it sets up and espeed. If something can set up with ease and without too many risks because of how almost every pokemon around it is set up bait, then imo it needs to go. 

 

Scizor has multiple pokemon it can set up on and the pokemon that are faster than it will take a lot of dmg if it switches into a attack. Fire punches do quite a bit of damage to scizor but it can just morning sun that dmg off. Hidden power fire plume doesn't even ko a bulky scizor while steel wing is a 2hko at least on 252hp/def vileplume, so hidden power pokemon aren't that viable either. 

 

If you don't want scizor to switch in to your pokemon and start setting up, then yes you do need to sack one of your moves to kill it and in this case it would mean running flame on clefable, hp fire on porygon/vileplume. If you want a game where you'll see the same pokemon with almost the same moveset in every team, then we can start unbanning things.

 

Comparing Scizor against Salamence and the others is a bad comparison anyway, given that they are far harder to revenge kill than a Scizor, and are only really checked by things that can take one hit and OHKO it back, and some things that do are straight out killed by Choice Band variants, whereas a Scizor running a Choice Band set is fairly medicore at best in comparison to it's other sets. I'm pretty sure the fact that you centralize on "setting up" speaks for itself. I don't see how hard it is to put a Fire type move on your team that doesn't need to be Fire Punch. I'm sighing at the fact that you want the whole "valid counter" thing again -- anything that doesn't have an appropriate amount of fixed counters should be gone, that's what your mentality has always been, unwilling to go into the acceptance of a more fast-paced meta that relies on checks and how plays are more rewarding than ever instead of the sequences proceeding robotically. The fact that how "every Pokemon is set up bait by it" is probably an exaggerative definition for Scizor.

 

You're neglecting the fact that you've brought out the fact that Scizor can switch out after taking one Fire Punch, and presumably come back in with no risk and get free recovery off, which is false. I'm not sure what you're assuming here, but an unboosted Adamant Scizor can't 2HKO a 252/0 Vileplume with Steel Wing to begin with. It's also odd how all of your Fire type attacks don't include the words Fire Blast, Flamethrower or Overheat, that is presumably exclusive to Slowking. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[NikhilR]

Double-Edge still hits harder than Crunch depending if you run it or not. This is targeted toward the aspect that some Pokemon centralize a moveslot dedicated for that Pokemon say Hidden Power Grass for Swampert or Hidden Power Electric for Gyarados; in reference to Robo's statement, Pursuit has it's other uses, but you're usually only going to hit a Gengar with it. It's not a bad thing that something with a dominant presence centralizes things to use a specific move for it, especially one that is fairly common in a tier. 

 

Nik, don't go on telling me about how you can support a Pokemon in other discussions but point out that the support I can give to something else is irrelevant just for the sake of your argument. I can say the exact same things to how risky it is for Scizor or whatever to pick up a boost and the like. No, it is not necessarily inferior, and this is taking it from the standpoint of Fire Punch, which admittedly is less distributed over options like Flamethrower or Fire Blast, and maybe even Overheat. Taking note that Scizor, as a defensive pivot switch, also commonly takes damage, maybe up to the point where Fire Punch can KO it. Besides, if you're going to assume the OHKO on Superpower versus these Normal types that are "forbidden" to run Choice Band, I could always Sub on your Superpower and exploit the -1 to kill you. 

 

It's odd how you nitpick a Rock Slide flinch chance but say the the chance that Steel Wing boosts Defense is reliable. That being said, even if you "just phaze it"or whatever it is, Steelix can still phaze it away while taking minimal damage in comparison to other set up sweepers that are phazed. I personally find Superpower but prevalent which makes Steelix pretty iffy to begin with, but be that as it may. 

 

Neither of them take a hit from Megahorn well. Well, justify them -- Scizor has a more reliable typing, but I'd be damned if you're going to tell me that Scizor's offensive capabilities are on par with Rhydon's. 

 

Like I said, it doesn't have to -- Rhydon either rekted things on the spot with Choice Band, and again a Rhydon behind a Sub is very rewarding even without Swords Dance. Scizor can't be complained to be broken with a Choice Band, nor does it have the default power that scares things from coming in, like I've said previously. Yes, Rhydon is far more easily revenge killed than Scizor, but it's offensive power scares the oblivion out of most of anything that wants to switch in on it, unlike Scizor that still has a fair about of things that can handle it. I've supplied some calcs initially in the thread.

 

I was reffering to the former. Again, you like to twist things to be convenient for your argument because "only the most advantageous situations I support can happen and are more likely to happen" or "I always get the right predictions". Likewise, the player can predict between the use of either an attacking move and Swords Dance and respond accordingly. I'd request you not to put prediction as a really relevant argument in a theoretical discussion, or anyone for that matter, since it is not dictated on a clear basis and is dependent on factors like skill and luck. Both players can predict well, but what justifies you always get the right predictions?  Pardon the mild ad hominem, but discussions between us very frequently, if not always, involve this.

 

True that DE does hit harder but when you have an option of doing 160 dmg with a chance of def drop vs 180 with recoil, I'd choose the former. I really don't understand how people think the comparison between running hp on a dual stab pokemon is same as running hidden power on other pokemon. Jolteon HAS to run hp grass/ice depending on its choice. But the difference is that is jolteon sacking another important move for a hidden power? No. It's going for the hidden power for complete coverage. Running hp electric on vaporeon for gyarados is very different from running hp fire for scizor. The differences over here is that I can choose to not run hp electric on vaporeon and find other counters like weezing whereas what pure counters do I have for scizor? Only slowking comes to mind. Gyarados has no instant recovery unlike scizor so even if it is bulky, it will still lose vs a vapo. Scizor has SD which hits your hp fire "counters" and does over 50% dmg to it, something that gyarados cannot do to vaporeon in one single move. Also we've established that hp fire is a 2hko, thus making your counter useless.

 

It's okay to run hidden power or a particular move on something that is quite a dominant force, but it is never okay to be forced to run it because of your lack of options. For eg, I can run Megahorn on my Rhydon to beat slowbro, but does that mean I'm running Megahorn because otherwise Slowbro will be impossible to deal with? No. I have options like Heracross, toxic bliss, umbreon, snorlax and many more. It's like Absol running Ice Beam for gligar. I can handle gligar with other pokemon so running icebeam is again, based on my choice. 

 

About the support argument, I honestly don't know what you're talking about. You were referring to sun support, which means that a pokemon will have to use sunny day. On the turn that a pokemon uses sunny day, it will take damage from scizor or whatever pokemon you switch into for abusing that fire support will take damage too. That is all my point was, until then I can just stall out the sun and come out again to wreck shit. About the sub argument, you sub vs my superpower, I just need to switch out. That's again, not killing me. Just forcing the switch out. 

 

I wasn't nitpicking at your statement like that. My argument was that a +2 Rhydon will never kill a blastoise unless the toise isn't at full health or if it gets a rock slide flinch and can finish it off with EQ. A Scizor does not need that def boost from steelwing to kill Steelix, it can do it even without the boost. Whereas Rhydon needs that flinch in order to win.

 

When you say Rhydon vs a sub, you need set up bait. With the amount of pokemon carrying surf/grass, there are hardly going to be any set up baits. I agree with Scizor not being as offensive as Rhydon but If Scizor can get to the offensive level of Rhydon with ease, why is it still not banned then? 

 

I didn't understand what you were trying to say in your post before this, so I gave my different interpretations on what scenarios you were talking about. Wasn't trying to twist it.

 

Comparing Scizor against Salamence and the others is a bad comparison anyway, given that they are far harder to revenge kill than a Scizor, and are only really checked by things that can take one hit and OHKO it back, and some things that do are straight out killed by Choice Band variants, whereas a Scizor running a Choice Band set is fairly medicore at best in comparison to it's other sets. I'm pretty sure the fact that you centralize on "setting up" speaks for itself. I don't see how hard it is to put a Fire type move on your team that doesn't need to be Fire Punch. I'm sighing at the fact that you want the whole "valid counter" thing again -- anything that doesn't have an appropriate amount of fixed counters should be gone, that's what your mentality has always been, unwilling to go into the acceptance of a more fast-paced meta that relies on checks and how plays are more rewarding than ever instead of the sequences proceeding robotically. The fact that how "every Pokemon is set up bait by it" is probably an exaggerative definition for Scizor.

 

You're neglecting the fact that you've brought out the fact that Scizor can switch out after taking one Fire Punch, and presumably come back in with no risk and get free recovery off, which is false. I'm not sure what you're assuming here, but an unboosted Adamant Scizor can't 2HKO a 252/0 Vileplume with Steel Wing to begin with. It's also odd how all of your Fire type attacks don't include the words Fire Blast, Flamethrower or Overheat, that is presumably exclusive to Slowking. 

 

If putting fire type moves isn't hard for you, then I'm sure that running superpower and icepunch on Snorlax to prevent it from being set up bait for Ttar/Salamence shouldn't be that hard either. 

 

Please mention some pokemon which don't usually carry flamethrower, but can carry flamethrower for scizor to prevent itself from being set up bait. And even it does carry flamethrower, it shouldn't die easily from a +2 Scizor. I can name you quite a few pokemon that are set up bait for Scizor:

 

Steelix, Vile, Clefable. Claydol, Exeggcutor, Hypno, Misdreavus, Porygon, Kanga (if no fire punch), Mantine, Blastoise and the list goes on.

 

At least 2 of the above pokemon will be there in your team and are easy set up baits for Scizor. 

 

Also about the vileplume part, if you're running hp fire on vile as a counter to Scizor, then the moment you switch it in, Scizor gets +2. At that point Steel Wing is a 2hko. 

[DoubleJ]

Nik seems to be the only competitive player that is willing to be vocal about banning Scizor. Is there anyone else with an argument to ban it as well? We seem to be doing circles with this one.

 

[spoiler]

"Run a fire move or two"

 

"No, I shouldn't have to"

 

"You probs should"

 

"Like I said, no"

 

"Ok"

[/spoiler]

 

Nik is correct in saying that there aren't really any counters to Scizor aside from Slowking. Slowking can beat Scizor without running Flamethrower, so I'm not sure where that came from exactly, but it does provide a OHKO should a Scizor decide to get gutsy and stay in predicting a pivot switch. The only unfortunate part about this is that Scizor may decide to drop STAB Steel Wing for Double-Edge or Return to put a beating on Slowking without Flamethrower. If this is the case though, Ghosts can switch in every time (SD, DE, Super, Morning Sun). Because hey, I guess we should be using them despite all the Pursuit trappers in the game. 

 

 

I don't know why we're looking for return resists when we have immunities like Misdreavus or Haunter which can now hit hard with 2 good stabs or sableye which handles most normal type choice banders very well.

 

0 SpA Slowking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Scizor: 156-188 (88.1 - 106.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

I'm not sure what types of Scizor's are commonly used today. Nik discussed a physically bulky Scizor that can live a Fire Punch from some unbanded pokes that seemed pretty legit. Unfortunately Scizor would fail to OHKO those pokemon without +2 Superpower. 

 

252 Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 166-196 (80.1 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 132-156 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Zangoose though is toast.

 

252 Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 204-240 (137.8 - 162.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

So with this in mind, we have to look outside of the box with our competitive pokes. The only difficult part about this though is breeding, since a lot of those "outside of the box" pokemon would be carrying Hidden Power Fire.

 

I'm thinking of pokemon like Bold 252/252+ Exeggutor with HP Fire.

 

0 SpA Exeggutor Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Scizor: 140-168 (79 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Or even simply running Flamethrower on Clefable, which I've mentioned before. This also has the added benefit of hitting Steelix, a pokemon with no recovery that swaps in to prevent toxic spam. 

 

0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Scizor: 136-164 (76.8 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 60-72 (32.9 - 39.5%) -- 16% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

 

[DoubleJ]

Sorry something went wrong with formatting above, but in summary, you're right there is no truly safe switch in on Scizor aside from Slowking. If Slowking is banned then Scizor absolutely has to go. In the meantime, players have the ability to prevent Scizor from ever being a major factor simply by recognizing what is and isn't set-up bait, and how you can prevent yourself from becoming set-up bait. 

 

Spikes prevents consistent switch ins. Using Flamethrower/Hidden Power Fire on some pokes previously thought of as set-up bait would catch Scizor off-guard or even discourage a scouting player from running it at all. 

 

My all-time favorite though is Roar Steelix. Throw down some spikes and Roar away. Only Superpower can touch you and even then, maybe you could predict that and hit him with STAB EQ while he's at -1 Defense. 

 

Just my thoughts. Hearing from other members of the community about potentially banning Scizor though may sway my opinion. There are definitely 0 solid counters outside of Slowking and it is becoming somewhat centralizing. 

[NikhilR]

It's been 10 days since the last post, I hope the council can give their verdict sometime before the UU tourney.

[londark]

RIP

[Toast]

rip scizor

[ThinkNice]

I'll find it very odd if this is not immediately banned after Slowking because you'll just have a very unbalanced meta for another week till it is gone.