[UU Discussion] Houndoom (Remains UU)

[YagamiNoir]

My experience comes from playing a double elim UU tourney after the bans, I think it's pretty much undebateable. The only thing running toxic atm is Chansey and may be you can run it on Houndoom. Again, Toxic is not a fairly and largely distributed move like you're mentioning but hey if you want to run toxic on pokemon that should probably run other moves, be my guest. 

 

I'd like to see your Claydol use Reflect when you're under Taunt. 

 

Thanks for calling one of my demands ridiculous and I'm not here asking for a counter. I'm asking for a pokemon in the UU meta that can punish an opponent who has Houndoom, by setting up and turning the game to his advantage. 

You don't get reliable usage or blatantly determined viabilities from one or two tournaments and from a metagame that's stagnant and evolves considerably slowly. Your own experience calls no claim to fact, nor does mine, but I'd be damned if someone says Toxic is useless, especially for the whole Destiny Bond hype. Taunt again, but again, four moveslot syndrome. You can't put everything on one Houndoom. 

 

Planning to Taunt a Claydol puts at risk of being EQed without being able to anything significant. I won't justify the prediction, but you know the risk. The only real reason Houndoom's a significant "trapper" against Claydol is because "Oh damn, Hitmonlee can shrekt after Crunch/Pursuit hits!" The situations again can backfire on Houndoom depending on prediction. 

 

I'm not sure if I should be disgusted or to laugh at this. Oh wait, I don't actually laugh. What you've said is literally a significant part of how one would define a "counter". A counter earns back lost momentum and pressures hostile momentum, and utilizing the low-risk switch in, can either threaten the entire team or what it is currently facing, which is exactly what you're demanding. Don't wordplay with me. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[NikhilR]

You don't get reliable usage or blatantly determined viabilities from one or two tournaments and from a metagame that's stagnant and evolves considerably slowly. Your own experience calls no claim to fact, nor does mine, but I'd be damned if someone says Toxic is useless, especially for the whole Destiny Bond hype. Taunt again, but again, four moveslot syndrome. You can't put everything on one Houndoom. 

 

Planning to Taunt a Claydol puts at risk of being EQed without being able to anything significant. I won't justify the prediction, but you know the risk. The only real reason Houndoom's a significant "trapper" against Claydol is because "Oh damn, Hitmonlee can shrekt after Crunch/Pursuit hits!" The situations again can backfire on Houndoom depending on prediction. 

 

I'm not sure if I should be disgusted or to laugh at this. Oh wait, I don't actually laugh. What you've said is literally a significant part of what would one define  a "counter". A counter earns back lost momentum and can either threaten the entire team or what it is currently facing, which is exactly what you're demanding. Don't wordplay with me. 

 

This isn't about usage of a poke. This is about usage of a move. I'm not saying toxic is useless but its tendency to be used is going to be way less in a meta where you have steelixes, chanseys and vileplumes running around. The only 3 pokemon that would generally carry toxic is steelix, chansey and porygon2. May be at times Clefable. Oh yea I don't remember ppl using toxic on any poke bar those 3 yesterday. Wasthat tourney enough or how many more do you need before you get to admit that I'm right?

 

I like how you want claydol to set up reflect but when you want houndoom to taunt, claydol can predict it and eq. Again, the role of houndoom can vary depending on what it wants to support. I don't think I even mentioned anywhere Houndoom being a trap for Claydol. It's the DB that is the problem because Claydol is going to EQ you, naturally. Houndoom can choose what wall it wants to kill and so support the pokemon it wants to sweep. This could range from taking out vile and allowing omastar/exegg to sweep or taking out steelix and allowing Swellow to sweep etc.

 

How is a counter = taking advantage of something? Earning lost back momentum isn't the same as completely changing the game around. It's just a small advantage for the time being until the opponent pulls out a counter for your counter. For me a counter is something that can switch safely and still win 1v1 but at the same time doesn't mean that it can turn a match completely around. 

 

And I very much like how you're avoiding the question because I'm not asking for a counter. I'm asking for set up bait. A bulky Vileplume is a counter to blastoise but is a bulky vileplume going to turn a match around? Nope. Scizor was a counter to several pokemon like vileplume/porygon/kanga etc. but at the same time used those pokes as set up bait for changing the entire game. Please give me the Scizor equivalent when it comes to Houndoom because I want to know how I can punish my opponent for having a houndoom without having to run a completely different playstyle. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by NikhilR

[YagamiNoir]

This isn't about usage of a poke. This is about usage of a move. I'm not saying toxic is useless but its tendency to be used is going to be way less in a meta where you have steelixes, chanseys and vileplumes running around. The only 3 pokemon that would generally carry toxic is steelix, chansey and porygon2. May be at times Clefable. Oh yea I don't remember ppl using toxic on any poke bar those 3 yesterday. Wasthat tourney enough or how many more do you need before you get to admit that I'm right?

 

I like how you want claydol to set up reflect but when you want houndoom to taunt, claydol can predict it and eq. Again, the role of houndoom can vary depending on what it wants to support. I don't think I even mentioned anywhere Houndoom being a trap for Claydol. It's the DB that is the problem because Claydol is going to EQ you, naturally. Houndoom can choose what wall it wants to kill and so support the pokemon it wants to sweep. This could range from taking out vile and allowing omastar/exegg to sweep or taking out steelix and allowing Swellow to sweep etc.

 

How is a counter = taking advantage of something? Earning lost back momentum isn't the same as completely changing the game around. It's just a small advantage for the time being until the opponent pulls out a counter for your counter. For me a counter is something that can switch safely and still win 1v1 but at the same time doesn't mean that it can turn a match completely around. 

 

And I very much like how you're avoiding the question because I'm not asking for a counter. I'm asking for set up bait. A bulky Vileplume is a counter to blastoise but is a bulky vileplume going to turn a match around? Nope. Scizor was a counter to several pokemon like vileplume/porygon/kanga etc. but at the same time used those pokes as set up bait for changing the entire game. Please give me the Scizor equivalent when it comes to Houndoom because I want to know how I can punish my opponent for having a houndoom without having to run a completely different playstyle. 

 

I only said the words "usage and viability". I never referred such things to a Pokemon's usage in general. And again, it's still a fairly short time since the recent bans. 

 

"Was that tourney enough or how many more do you need before you get to admit that I'm right?"

 

I can very safely say it's going to take you a lot to convince me of most things that you're right, Nik. It's not exactly a matter of prejudice but our ideals have tried and true clashed on so many levels. Ranging from things needing 100% counters and now "something that not only has no risk, but can also immediately threaten an entire team in the process" for competitive metagames to be balanced. It goes both ways, I guess, but I think you should be aware of this by now. 

 

If you're capable of using a Pokemon as setup bait, why aren't you called a counter to that Pokemon if you get to do whatever you want on it? For oblivion's sake, this new "setup bait" is an even bigger claim that something needing just "counters", and what you're proposing is even better (or worse) to the point that it may even prove centralizing. It's again a very preposterous demand, considering you can't have something like that for every Pokemon. You don't have a "Scizor" for hyper offensive Pokemon, but why do these even need it anyway? Scizor is also a bad example to demonstrate what you want, as to be fair, you also advocated how Scizor's ability to do the whole "turn the match around thing" made it banworthy, so by your own words even if something impossibly stupid like that existed, it probably wouldn't be here for long anyway. Why the hell do we need tools for changing the entire outcome of a match in order for something to not prove banworthy? Since when did Pokemon need such a high level of countering? Since when did the meta need things that "change the game around" to be a stable and healthy one? I'm admittedly a bit disgusted at how odd such a claim is, especially against something like Houndoom in which you find so versatile. "Yeah, you can't answer that, so that makes it banworthy!" The meta doesn't need what you're demanding to be stable. Houndoom doesn't need something that can use it to turn the match around to avoid the banhammer. 

 

I like how you don't actually read or comprehend what I say properly. I never, and I mean never put the prediction argument on my side of the table, which is obvious enough through the countless loops of discussions I have with you, since it's something no one can appropriately justify, something I've thrown at you a couple of times as well. I simply state the possibilities and risks, but never justify that one likelihood is stronger than the other one. If anything you're the one that's putting all the hype on some banworthy always acquiring the accurate predictions. 

 

I give up, though. Have it your way, I'm not going to go through something we've gone through to only face concrete walls countless times before, moreso not now when you've added a new layer of cement on it. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[Bestfriends]

I have Houndoom in my BurntZebra VS KarimTheOne battle:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lKWCzErris

 

21:23 - 21:35 Houndoom does crunch on Chansey

 

21:52 - 21:58 Houdoom does crunch on Steelix (steelix sponges it)

 

56:14 - 56:22 Houdoom uses flamethrower on Vileplume

 

56:21 - 56:24 Houndoom tries to sponge off a sludge bomb from Vileplume

 

56:39 - 56:44 Houndoom does pursuit on Vileplume

 

56:43 - 56:45 Houndoom is KOed by Vile's sludge bomb

 

 

I hope I am being helpful here.

[Tyrone]

The UU Council has decided to keep Houndoom in the UU Tier for now.

This was a more difficult decision because Houndoom is such a versatile pokemon. But in the end, we thought it had it's rightful place in UU.

We'd like to thank everyone who constructively contributed to this discussion!

I'll be locking this thread now.