[Discussion] Snorlax (OU)

[JSTUD]

I am pretty sure you have no idea what you are talking about. In every format I played on showdown, from NU to Ubers and even other formats, the top 10 teams always have a balanced style, some very defensive pokemon, some very offensive, and others for support. Of course, you need to be good to play those in the top...

 

What do you mean by a balance style? Top 10 maybe even 50 in OU in showdown play heavy stall

Edited April 14, 2015 by JSTUD

[Senile]

Yesterday I ran a team with no walls and won. That's what we call diversity. Hype.

Where? I could take a team with 6 physical attackers and beat a random easily, lol. Good luck winning a tournament with that tho.

 

It's not that teams without walls can't win games, but they aren't consistent enough to run in tournaments.

[Robofiend]

Where? I could take a team with 6 physical attackers and beat a random easily, lol. Good luck winning a tournament with that tho.

 

It's not that teams without walls can't win games, but they aren't consistent enough to run in tournaments.

 

Yeah, single elimination makes HO a pretty awful idea, this is mostly just for fun.

 

Also yes it was Vermillion, kek

[bl0nde]

So has anyone started developing any early opinions of how they feel about snorlax being uber? As you guys know me, I really wanted to use it because of its dependability. Simultaneously, I like that the ban test seems to be creating a little bit of diversity.

[codylramey]

Idt there has been any officials yet. Ive seen some rarely used physical attkers in verm tho. Like aero.

[Shaniqualela]

I've had a lot of success using dugtrio to kill strong physical attackers like Hera and meta, then using cm bliss to sweep very slowly. Gyarados / dd kingdra seem really really strong in the new meta because blissey can't do much to them like snorlax could (gyarados fears tbolt on bliss though, obviously). Resto chesto dd kingdra just sets up on blissey though

[codylramey]

Question. Lets say overall it is determined that the meta is indeed healthier w/o lax. BUT somethings become broken w/o him. Like just for an example sense w/o lax spcl attkers become more viable so dugtrio becomes a great option as a team mate to support thise spcl atkers. Lets say dugtrio becomes too good, taking out any special wall and metagross, and we determine him ban worthy bc of the meta shift. Will we just go on about the bans or bring bak lax to prevent more bans? I know normally we wont bring back a broken things to keep other broken things but we arent testing lax bc of him being OP, just unhealthy.

Also what if there were more pokes that need to be banned besides just one? Where would the limit be b4 we decide to bring him bak (all of this assuming he gets the boot after the test ofc)

Edited April 18, 2015 by codylramey

[Robofiend]

Question. Lets say overall it is determined that the meta is indeed healthier w/o lax. BUT somethings become broken w/o him. Like just for an example sense w/o lax spcl attkers become more viable so dugtrio becomes a great option as a team mate to support thise spcl atkers. Lets say dugtrio becomes too good, taking out any special wall and metagross, and we determine him ban worthy bc of the meta shift. Will we just go on about the bans or bring bak lax to prevent more bans? I know normally we wont bring back a broken things to keep other broken things but we arent testing lax bc of him being OP, just unhealthy.

Also what if there were more pokes that need to be banned besides just one? Where would the limit be b4 we decide to bring him bak (all of this assuming he gets the boot after the test ofc)

 

Very good question, not sure if anyone can answer it. I suppose we could go either way, depending on what we thought would bring about a better metagame. I'm inclined to just ban Dugtrio if it comes down to it, but that's no more "right" or "wrong" than bringing back Snorlax since we're into this weird subjective area with it banishment from OU.

[codylramey]

okay so lets say slowbro becomes too OP along with dugtrio becoming uber in support. (btw idt ppl realize how redic slowbro is. Or im just bad) thats 2 pokes for the sake of keeping one away. Does that matter?

[Robofiend]

okay so lets say slowbro becomes too OP along with dugtrio becoming uber in support. (btw idt ppl realize how redic slowbro is. Or im just bad) thats 2 pokes for the sake of keeping one away. Does that matter?

 

Not really. You can argue it two ways: 

 

1. Bring Snorlax back, it obviously balances out the advantages of using pokes like Slowbro and Dugtrio!

 

2. Keep Snorlax banned, it was unhealthy and we can never get a good metagame going with it around. Slowbro and Dugtrio are broken now too? Ban em and move on.

 

Of course, if we ended up with a game where we had to continually ban things because each ban made other pokes too powerful then we might have to bring em all back and try again. But I don't think that's going to happen - I'm really skeptical about Dug/Slowbro getting banned at this point.

 

Just a reminder that this is a tangent, so lets not chase it too far in hopes of keeping the Snorlax debate alive.

[DoubleJ]

Tournament today felt very fluid. I didn't notice any overpowering Calm Mind users. Blissey was seen everywhere, but so was Dugtrio to rid the field of this beast. A wide plethora of alternative Special Defense walls and sponges were also seen, most notably Ludicolo and Umbreon. Interestingly enough some players opted away from a standard special wall and chose to run a combination of special resistances with offense.

 

All in all, it was a very diverse meta today. I'm looking forward to seeing this shake out with future tournaments. 

 

[spoiler] The return of Starmie was also present \o/ [/spoiler]

Edited April 19, 2015 by DoubleJ

[codylramey]

Soo its been a while now. Im unfourtunatly struggling to come up with new comps for this meta (why did it have to happen during finals ;-; ) Any facts and opinions from anyone who has already adjusted? I was able to spec much of the tourny last night while doing hw and the variity seemed to be there much of the time. Bliss was obvio everywhere but the other mons were much diff from team to team imo. But i was only able to spec a few matches soo i want to hear from others. What do you think of the laxless meta so far?

Edited April 25, 2015 by codylramey

[Robofiend]

Soo its been a while now. Im unfourtunatly struggling to come up with new comps for this meta (why did it have to happen during finals ;-; ) Any facts and opinions from anyone who has already adjusted? I was able to spec much of the tourny last night while doing hw and the variity seemed to be there much of the time. Bliss was obvio everywhere but the other mons were much diff from team to team imo. But i was only able to spec a few matches soo i want to hear from others. What do you think of the laxless meta so far?

 

Twave Blissey is popular, flame+bolt Weezing is everywhere, Gyarados is a champ, Pursuit Aero is stong on offensive teams, Venusaur, Umbreon and Ludicolo see some play as special walls, Starmie is viable again, bulky Metagross is still good (Psychic is becoming more popular), Dugtrio is good, Gengar no longer needs Sub/Disable/Wow to hit Snorlax, Forretress works, Sub/Rest Kingdra can be really damaging, Heracross is less popular with Weezing everywhere and Swampert can prevent bolt/beam from rekting you. Overall the game is a lot more matchup based with more diversity in teams and more threats/cores that can work well to stop offense or break certain wall cores.

 

See my post in the OU viability thread for more detailed info

[Robofiend]

Sorry for double post: looking for input because the OU council will be making a decision on this within the next two weeks.

 

Recap of questions about Snorlax and the health of the metagame, augmented with questions that address the "flip side" of the question in a Snorlax-free meta:

 

Is it "too good not to use"? 

>If you were currently allowed to use Snorlax, would you use it? 

Does it limit teambuilding options?

>Do you think that teams have become more or less diverse with Snorlax removed? Do you feel like you have more or less freedom when designing a team?

Does it limit playstyle options?

>Without Snorlax do you feel like you can confidently use stall, offensive or balanced teams? Is there one playstyle that is more dominant than others?

[codylramey]

I have only played vermillion and 1 unofficial (hopefully today i make it into the official)I still am under the impression that lax was bad for the meta. W/o him, according you you, there has been a surge of new pokes becoming viable. I know i have used some new pokes for the first time in a while. Would love to see the usage stats tho and compare them to the meta with lax. (they may be posted now i havent checked). Also CMers arent as overwhelming as I thought they would be (coming from my impressions from vermillion and the tournies i have spectated.) Seems like all you need is a toxic user who can take a few hits and you are good, which can be run more confidently bc you dont have to fear giving immunity lax a chance to come in. Blissey is obvio popular but i think that a good spcl def core can be just as effective, it limits ur team building capability a lil tho.

All in all i think that the council should AT LEAST give the test another month if not finalize the ban.

Is it "too good not to use"?

>If you were currently allowed to use Snorlax, would you use it?

Ofc it is. Thats why most people never went w/o it. Even if you ran blissey many still ran snorlax. And i cant count the times i have won against better players than I bc of lax, Nik being one of them. That poor boy andd his lax hax.

Does it limit teambuilding options?

>Do you think that teams have become more or less diverse with Snorlax removed? Do you feel like you have more or less freedom when designing a team?

Yes and i think that the usage stats will show that.

Does it limit playstyle options?

>Without Snorlax do you feel like you can confidently use stall, offensive or balanced teams? Is there one playstyle that is more dominant than others?

I believe you can, just ask zebra.

[Vaeldras]

I like trying to build special defensive cores instead of buying a blissey.

Too bad it just won't work  :D

 

 

Is it "too good not to use"? 

>If you were currently allowed to use Snorlax, would you use it? 

 

I'd use it.

it's both a complete sp def core and a good ph hitter.

I like offensive teams, so it would be a must to have it if i wanted to be able to take care of things like jolteon and ludicolo while still hitting hard af.

Not sure if it's too good not to use, but it was no doubt the best available poke before it got test banned,

 

Does it limit teambuilding options?

>Do you think that teams have become more or less diverse with Snorlax removed? Do you feel like you have more or less freedom when designing a team?

 

Now i'm forced to find working sp def cores instead of going full offensive with only dusclops to wall ph hitters.

Metagross, weezing and gengar are still in E-V-E-R-Y team, same with arcanine maybe, blissey and ludicolo just got more popular.

Snorlax didn't really force you to carry any specific poke to take it down, at least i didn't, and it was never a problem.

 

 

Does it limit playstyle options?

>Without Snorlax do you feel like you can confidently use stall, offensive or balanced teams? Is there one playstyle that is more dominant than others?

 

I had to get way more defensive now.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Vaeldras

[codylramey]

So i noticed a couple of things last night. Fucking aerodactyle and dugtrio are EVERYWHERE in OU. Lf usage stats. Srsly need them for this conversation.

[Noad]

So i noticed a couple of things last night. Fucking aerodactyle and dugtrio are EVERYWHERE in OU. Lf usage stats. Srsly need them for this conversation.

Patience ;) usage stats take quite a while to process and put in table form for everyone. Tranz will hopefully have it for you soon!

[Tranzmaster]

Done.

 

[Shaniqualela]

61% snorlax -> 55% blissey

13% ludi -> 28% ludi

 

 

besides this its almost identical. 

 

cant really say it helps the 'health' of the meta when its almost the exact same.

the team structures are different no doubt, but the same pokemon are being seen. + ludicolo and moar trappers inserted randomly

 

#SuspectTestBlissey? maybe after this is done, maybe soon something will pop up to make the meta evolve

[OldKeith]

I doubt Blissey is banworthy, although the remaining sweepers in OU are quite shabby and are usually the first to die during a match. Blissey call was better than Snorlax, but offensively it just isn't that threatening.

Edited May 4, 2015 by OldKeith

[codylramey]

​

​Okay significant drop in gengar usage which is good. The top 5 used pokes have seen a drop in usage. Starmie has seen a rise in usage. Ludi has seen a rise in usage.

[Vaeldras]

So people were running gengar just to SURPRISE snorlax? well lel.

As i suspected, snorlax wasn't really forcing you use any specific poke...besides maybe itself?

[codylramey]

So people were running gengar just to SURPRISE snorlax? well lel.

As i suspected, snorlax wasn't really forcing you use any specific poke...besides maybe itself?

7% is pretty big (i think it seems big anyway). Also look at the rise in aerodacyle use. And starmie use. Centralization isnt all about forcing ur opponent to run special pokemon but it also can make others less viable. The drop on the top 5 pokes means that on some teams those pokes are being replaced with something else. Thats good imo.

Edited May 4, 2015 by codylramey

[Senile]

 

​Okay significant drop in gengar usage which is good. The top 5 used pokes have seen a drop in usage. Starmie has seen a rise in usage. Ludi has seen a rise in usage.

Are we looking at the same usage stats? I hope you guys aren't looking at first round usage stats, since all rounds is what we really look at; Sometimes I kinda forget why first round usage is even there.

 

If we look at the usage, the "drop" you're talking about probably has more to do with people figuring out how to deal with threats, and by extension the threats being (very slightly) less used. Alternatively, you could chalk it up to variance. Either way, let's not pretend a 2% change on Metagross or 1% on Arcanine is anything but a slight adjustment or simple variance. It's also misleading to say the "Top 5" have dropped in usage when 1 of those 5 is banned and 2 of those pokemon dropped by a percentage so insignificant it falls within variance/the margin of error. Heracross and Gengar dropped an okay amount, but Gengar is still a top tier pick, and you're ignoring diminishing returns. Yes, A pokemon going from 10% to 3% would be a big shift. A pokemon going from 47% to 40% (almost 41% tbh)? That's hardly a big deal. At the point where you're going between 40% and 47%, that pokemon is still used enough that it's a major threat in the metagame and major factor in teambuilding and actual gameplay. The 7% is kinda unimportant.

 

Heracross had a decent drop. So, you're right about that. Still very high usage though, but I don't think that his change was as irrelevant as I think the Gengar one was.

 

 

7% is pretty big (i think it seems big anyway). Also look at the rise in aerodacyle use. And starmie use. Centralization isnt all about forcing ur opponent to run special pokemon but it also can make others less viable. The drop on the top 5 pokes means that on some teams those pokes are being replaced with something else. Thats good imo.

 

Starmie usage went down m8, by around 7%. Okay, Aerodactyl went up in usage, but it was already a viable mid-rangeish OU pokemon, so it's not like Snorlax was making it unviable to begin with. Actually, Blissey usage actually looks slightly more top-heavy to me than Snorlax usage, but that's a hard point to argue because they look so damn similar. Yeah, some pokemon went up and some went down, but it still looks to be the same pokemon in OU; Just different distribution of usage. So basically exactly what you'd expect when you remove a high usage pokemon.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Senile