[UU Discussion] Charizard

[Artemiseta]

[UU] Charizard Discussion

 

 

Popular Sets:

 

Belly Zard

Item: Salac Berry / Sitrus Berry

Nature: Adamant / Jolly

EVs: 252 Att / 252 Spe 

• Fire Punch
• Thunder Punch / Dragon Claw / Earthquake / Crunch
• Substitute / Endure
• Belly Drum

 

Sunny Zard

Item: Leftovers / Petaya Berry / Salac Berry

Nature: Modest / Timid

EVs: 252 SpAtt / 252 Spe

• Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Heat Wave
• Solarbeam / HP Grass
• Substitute / HP Flying / HP Electric / Ancient Power
• Sunny Day

 

SubPunch Zard (Kills just about every wall available)

Item: Leftovers / Petaya Berry

Nature: Rash / Mild / Hasty / Naive

EVs: 100 Att / 252 SpAtt / 156 Spe

• Flamethrower / Fire Blast
• HP grass
• Substitute
• Focus Punch

 

Dragon Dance Charizard

Item: Lum Berry

Nature: Adamant

EVs: 252 Att / 252 Spe

• Dragon Dance
• Fire Punch
• Thunder Punch
• Earthquake

 

A list of Pokemon that rival Charizard's speed:

[spoiler]

Electabuzz

Sneasel

Persian

Ninjask

Electrode

Fearow

Ninetales

Tentacruel

Miltank

Raichu

Rapidash

Scyther

Manectric

Kadabra

Swellow

Crobat

[/spoiler]

 

These and only these things can either outspeed or speed tie with Charizard, and hit him before he establishes a Substitute. Because of this, Belly Charizard has a difficult time setting up, and can only capitalize if it switches in vs a CB-locked EQ or switch in vs a pokemon that can't inflict any more than 25% damage. Now while these circumstances are not ideal for Charizard users, a bit of support via Encore Wynaut, defensive screens, or memento can make it much easier to obtain a Belly Drum and proceed to sweep.

 

With the popularity of Choice Band users and with a large percentage of them running EQ, Charizard can take advantage of this by sacrificing a teammate and gaining a free turn of set-up. Once this happens Belly Charizard becomes nearly unstoppable. The only multi-hit move that can break a Charizard Substitute and faint it is Rock Blast, which has very few users (Rhydon/ Steelix/ Golem/ Armaldo/ Omastar/ Corsola/ Octillery/ Nosepass in UU), and even then most rarely run it.

 

Calc wise nearly nothing can stand up to a +6 Charizard. Priority wise you need to first have broken the substitute and then be able to faint it with a priority move that can inflict ~25%. So with this in mind, Belly Drum Charizard is by far and away the most dangerous set, but when you take into consideration the versatility that Charizard brings you worry that you might be countering the wrong thing and could eventually lose regardless.

 

Damage Calculations:

[spoiler]

Kangaskhan

with no cb

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 37-45 (24 - 29.2%) -- 98.3% chance to 4HKO

cb

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 57-67 (37 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Pikachu

252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 73-86 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO

 

Shiftry

252+ Atk Choice Band Shiftry Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 39-46 (25.3 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

non cb doesnt do enough and idk why you;d run fake out + cb

 

Hitmonlee

252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 30-36 (19.4 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

 

Sneasel

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 34-41 (22 - 26.6%) -- 17.5% chance to 4HKO

with cb still unlikely to kill

 

And these are only Belly Zard issues

[/spoiler]

 

 

In addition to this behemoth, we also have variants that can break walls in UU quite effectively. Every wall in UU has a weakness Zard is able to exploit (minus Slowking to a degree).

Vileplume has to run in the face of Flamethrower or Fire Blast, allowing Charizard to obtain a free Substitute to take advantage of any incoming switch in.

You can also take advantage of Petaya Berry to inflict serious damage to your opponent with Blaze + STAB + SpAtt Petaya Boost. In addition to this Petaya Boost can result in major damage to Slowking with HP Grass. 

 

 

So with this in mind, we'd like to hear what you think about Charizard in UU. Does it fit the following offensive uber characteristic?

 

Offensive Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

[Artemiseta]

take a look over this plz guys

and I forget how to make the spoilers can someone remind me so it can be fixed

[NikhilR]

Tbh the ddance set is the least threatening of all sets. Ddance along with hp grass and flamethrower and eq is nice since it can take out quag/rhydon, exegg/viles and tentas respectively.

 

But yeah, Zard needs to go. Sub Petaya is just too strong and is a guaranteed kill for almost anything. You send something in to absorb the flame, zard can just hit back with EQ or AP.

 

I'm all for offensive uber. 

[Noad]

Made it look pretty.

[Artemiseta]

ty Noad I would have put in the pic if it went to comp ally but the color is nice

[DoubleJ]

Looks good imo, post it?

[DoubleJ]

Looks like discussion is fairly well distinguished that this bad boy should be banned. In the event that the UU Council wants to move forward, I vote to ban Charizard and reassess the tier in the coming weeks prior to any further changes. 

 

Reasoning: Charizard is flat out an Offensive Uber. It has multiple pathways to sweeping an entire team and can also cripple any team by abusing its powerful (and easily boosted) stab fire-attacks. Pair those fire-attacks with HP Grass, or Solarbeam, and you can cripple the entire tier with a Sunny Day set. 

Charizard has an option of beating all of its counters, whether that is variability in its movesets, changes in build, or simply by switching out and supported by teammates (Think Manectric and Swellow). 

 

So, let's ban this baby and figure out where we need to go from here. 

 

 

JJ's Shitty Assumptions:

• Slowking will once again become the primary counter to Scizor without a dominant Fire-type in the tier, so expect to see Slowking use to rise
• Scizor will no longer have a scary fire-type that can force it out. Expect more variability from Scizor, rather than the CB QA variant we've all began to see dominate the tier
• Dusclops can freely spam WoW without worrying about Charizard coming in
• Houndoom may see an increase in viability to counter Dusclops and revenge kill Scizor

[BurntZebra]

I'd say ban rhydon before charizard. Charizard has actual counters and is a lot weaker than rhydon. Some of charizards counters are just shat on by rhydon and most people wouldn't risk running some of charizards counters

[gbwead]

I think banning Charizard is the right move.

 

On another note, Rhydon makes stall unviable (unhealthy for the tier). For that reason, I think it would be a good idea to test ban Rhydon at the same time. 

[Robofiend]

I'd say ban Rhydon first, then Zard - although maybe you don't need a Zard ban if Breloom becomes usable as a Rhydon check? Idk

[DoubleJ]

UU council came together and agreed zard is the bigger threat to the tier right now. Sorry zeb.

[gbwead]

although maybe you don't need a Zard ban if Breloom becomes usable as a Rhydon check?

How does Breloom checking Rhydon has anything to do with whether or not Charizard is banworthy?

[DoubleJ]

How does Breloom checking Rhydon has anything to do with whether or not Charizard is banworthy?

 

Did I say that, like ever? And if you're just generally asking, well it doesn't. Rhydon still does Rhydon things. 

[Artemiseta]

ok so I've given this a lot of thought or as much thought as I can spare at the moment (IRL can be a bitch sometimes)

I think that it is best for the UU tier if we ban Charizard. I believe banning zard first is best for several reasons. This is compared to Rhydon who is also up for discssion

1) Charizard has a lot more variety in the sets that it can run, and run very successfully I might add. each one of the sets has a purpose behind it that is deadly for the UU tier in general.

2) Charizard is faster than Rhydon, period end of statement. the speed tier that Rhydon hits is absolute shit. anything and everything can out speed Rhydon if they so choose. even if you choose not to speed invest in your walls (which you shouldn't unless its the 4 leftover evs) there are lots of pokemon in UU that outspeed rhydon without full invest and are already built to out speed certain threats like Donphan, Golem, Sandslash, ect. Meanwhile Charzard is tied for the 3rd fastest speed tier at base 100. only swallow and base 105s always out speed (unless DD) the other base 100s it is a pure RNG if they can get in their shot to kill it.

3) Charizard and Rhydon both excel at destroying walls. Rhydon may do this slightly better (pray not RS or Megahorn miss) but zard does a great job as it is and his speed makes him more viable to take down other threats that Rhydon simply cannot do without the help of a substitute.

4) Charizard is not just a wall breaker but is easy to setup in the face of every wall in UU minus Slowking, tho if Slowking is weakened then Zard can HP grass in its face to get some serious damage.

5) Charizard is more centralizing than Rhydon. at least I see it that way right now

6)Bullet seed. this alone will cripple Rhydon. it is 4x effective and hit multiple times so even if behind a sub it can still die easily

So in conclusion I believe that Chaizard is ban worthy under Uber Offensive characteristics

this is not to say Rhydon is not ban worthy but rather that I see Charizard as more ban worthy at this time.

How this will affect the meta is yet to be seen. Hopefully we will see more creativity and pokemon that were held down by Zard rise back up again harder and stronger.

end of Art's rant. tired now need sleep to take care of munchkins tomorrow.

[DoubleJ]

Aight Zard has been banned. Thanks for you input guys and thank you to Art for his work as well. I guess this thread can be closed now. 

[BurntZebra]

I wrote a post earlier about prioritizng bans and which one might be more healthy for the meta but didn't have internet when I posted it so I guess we're just gonna have a shit uu meta for another month now

[DoubleJ]

I wrote a post earlier about prioritizng bans and which one might be more healthy for the meta but didn't have internet when I posted it so I guess we're just gonna have a shit uu meta for another month now

Lol. So constructive.

[BurntZebra]

Rhydon shuts down so much of the pokemon in UU and limits team building so bad. Charizard could maybe sweep someone if they didn't have priority or something faster, and gave charizard 2 turns to set up. 

 

edit: I still believe charizard is probably banworthy, but I think a rhydon ban made more sense as it severely limits what pokemon can counter charizard

Edited September 11, 2015 by BurntZebra

[NikhilR]

Rhydon shuts down so much of the pokemon in UU and limits team building so bad. Charizard could maybe sweep someone if they didn't have priority or something faster, and gave charizard 2 turns to set up. 

 

edit: I still believe charizard is probably banworthy, but I think a rhydon ban made more sense as it severely limits what pokemon can counter charizard

 

I personally am more comfortable with banning Charizard than Rhydon. Sub Blaze Petaya racks up kills very easily compared to Rhydon. Both need to go but there's just no need for you to throw a tantrum when the UU council did the right thing by banning Zard. 

 

Charizard is one of those pokemon that can't have counters because of the several sets it can possibly have, you should know this by now. 

[Robofiend]

Charizard is one of those pokemon that can't have counters because of the several sets it can possibly have, you should know this by now. 

 

Implying lack of checks/counters makes something Uber. C'mon, thats like the most basic error in tiering arguments. Things like Hydregion, Toxicroak, Nidoking, Azumarill and just about half of the UU/OU metas in Gen VI don't have real counters.

 

I think you guys messed up on this one too, for the record. Rhydon's a lot more restricting for team-building than Charizard is, as you can actually scout Zard without dying and there are a total of 3 relatively commonly used pokemon who (defensively) shut down the set everyone agrees is scariest: Sub Belly Zard. Offensive checks, like Manectric and Swellow also have advantages over other sets. It also doesn't help that Rhydon breaks a ton of common walls, allowing a player to sweep a weakened team much more easily with Charizard and other top sweepers.

 

I think Zard is a defining force in the game because of how well it prevents stall and helps to force adaption and overall that's kinda a good thing for the game. 

Edited September 11, 2015 by Robofiend

[NikhilR]

Implying lack of checks/counters makes something Uber

 

I'm not implying that Charizard is uber because of lack of counters, just implying that it has no counters because you have no idea what kind of zard you're usually facing. Zeb said that Rhydon prevented Zard's counters from being used, hence the reason I said the above. 

[DoubleJ]

Maybe we should just go back to one council tiering with all this bitching

[Artemiseta]

Robo and zebra to u both missed most of the point of what I wrote up. go re-read it if u choose.

Robo u say zard has 2 relatively common counters/checks (3 if speed tie win) we will just go with this idea

Zard can still set up on every UU wall or kill. and has multiple sets that can mess up your "checks/counters"

Rhydon has anything above 101 speed to check/counter it

this is not worth discussing and is not up for discussion. Perhaps more input earlier would have helped more than this now.

I suggest you go fix OU as it is extremely broken. no play style other than trap stall is viable

JJ posts as I type. sigh

[BurntZebra]

Further discussion wouldn't have helped at all, lol. I mean when I think of charizard and rhydon of UU, its kind of like if someone has an infected hand. The person with an infected hand goes to the hospital, Doctor JJ decides to cut off his whole arm, then reattach the hand to the shoulder and hopes to fix it. But unfortunately, the hand still needs to be removed as well. Or Doctor Craig decides to cut off the hand, hope the infection didn't spread to the arm. If it spread to the arm, then you can cut off the arm. 

[Robofiend]

Robo and zebra to u both missed most of the point of what I wrote up. go re-read it if u choose.

Robo u say zard has 2 relatively common counters/checks (3 if speed tie win) we will just go with this idea

Zard can still set up on every UU wall or kill. and has multiple sets that can mess up your "checks/counters"

Rhydon has anything above 101 speed to check/counter it

this is not worth discussing and is not up for discussion. Perhaps more input earlier would have helped more than this now.

I suggest you go fix OU as it is extremely broken. no play style other than trap stall is viable

JJ posts as I type. sigh

 

For the record I voted against banning Gengar but it didn't really matter by the time it happened, as there were already two votes against me.

 

These threads are supposed to be open long enough for discussion to happen. This thread opened September 8th and closed 3 fucking days later. That's not a discussion, it's you guys being like "GOGOGO DECISIONS AHHH" for no reason. UU doesn't seem so fucked up that you guys should be banning things left and right. In fact, it's arguably the most interesting tier we have at the moment, until Absol comes back to NU, that is.

 

Also rofl about the Rhydon point, it's not true. Does Kangaskhan counter Rhydon? Is that what you're saying Arte? How bout Manetric? Can it just switch in and then everything's good? Oh my bad, you must have been talking about how Tentacruel, Swellow or Charizard can just come in on STAB Rock Slide and then proceed to win every time? Sarcasm aside, you should be embarrassed for saying "Rhydon has anything above 101 speed to check/counter it" Because it just ain't true. Unlike Charizard, (imo) Rhydon both doesn't have checks and can kill pretty much everything that you try to scout/play around it with. Thus, it's probably best to ban Rhydon before Charizard, if you do anything at all.

 

I think this is worth discussing because you made this decision in 3 days with less than a page of discussion in this thread or the other thread. Not to mention that there's a ton of support for the Rhydon ban in the TC poll, the community poll and the fucking thread. I really have no idea how you guys are making these decisions, but from my perspective it really seems like you're flipping coins or something.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Robofiend