[UU Discussion] Charizard

[DrCraig]

I'm a great doctor

[DoubleJ]

Hey you guys do you and we'll do us, ok?

We're supposed to be a team, but it seems that we get flack from every fucking corner. There is legit just two of us over here doing all this work and neither of us have a whole lot of time to spare yet we make it work, both by playing this game and thinking it through.

Charizard is a fucking dominant force and the community agreed. It tears through all play styles and has the speed to back it up. We've had a long time to monitor the tier with zard in play, both with and without rhydon. It flat out wins games.

I understand rhydon breaks zebra's stall core and shuts down his end game sweeper swellow, so understandably he wants it banned. Tbh I do too, yet in reality we have a one month ban hiatus and the uu council talked it through, agreeing that zard was the bigger threat. If you don't agree with this then I'm sorry. You'll just have to play in a "shit tier" for another month or maybe even more.

Kinda like how we have to play in a shitty ou tier, but you don't see us coming at you from all sides for test banning gengar. We let you do your thing. So again, let us do our thing.

[BurntZebra]

I'd also like to point out charizard broke tiering protocol.

1. 2. Only one suspect test per tier at one time. Suspect threads will remain open for a minimum of two weeks. 

Charizard thread was open for a whopping 3 days until it was banned, with only 18 posts on it. I would request a reversal of this decision as it goes against tiering policy. 

[DrCraig]

I hate these policies that involve time restrictions. Each decision should be approached differently and I don't think it's appropriate to whip out these time limits which really have no specific reasoning for their length.

If we assume the meta adapts after 2 months and do usage moves, why one ban a month? Why one ban a month even? I just hate these long term time restrictions. I hope those rules were collectively made, not senile made. I want to know the reasoning behind these.

Edited September 12, 2015 by DrCraig

[BurntZebra]

Hey you guys do you and we'll do us, ok?

We're supposed to be a team, but it seems that we get flack from every fucking corner. There is legit just two of us over here doing all this work and neither of us have a whole lot of time to spare yet we make it work, both by playing this game and thinking it through.

Charizard is a fucking dominant force and the community agreed. It tears through all play styles and has the speed to back it up. We've had a long time to monitor the tier with zard in play, both with and without rhydon. It flat out wins games.

I understand rhydon breaks zebra's stall core and shuts down his end game sweeper swellow, so understandably he wants it banned. Tbh I do too, yet in reality we have a one month ban hiatus and the uu council talked it through, agreeing that zard was the bigger threat. If you don't agree with this then I'm sorry. You'll just have to play in a "shit tier" for another month or maybe even more.

Kinda like how we have to play in a shitty ou tier, but you don't see us coming at you from all sides for test banning gengar. We let you do your thing. So again, let us do our thing.

Rhydon breaks any wall lol. I'm just sitting over here running surf kangaskhan and max defense breloom in an attempt to not get swept by rhydon immediately. 

 

I wouldn't say ou is shitty, at least not in the same way UU is lacking. I still believe banning gengar was the right thing to do, at least for now anyways. Although chansey is used a lot, it has a ton of downsides and is more easily beat than blissey/snorlax still, and lacks offense. 

 

Although I agree some of the policies and their times are kinda made up and should have been discussed more, I think the suspect thread length is common sense. You don't ban something when the thread has only been open for 3 days and only 18 posts on it, as it wasn't a quickban either. 

[DoubleJ]

Yo reverse this ban and im done with this council. I cleared it with noad prior to making that post and all I see is zebra bitching because we didn't ban the right uber threat.

Settle down young man.

[BurntZebra]

Not to go all lyle about this, but why are there rules if we're just allowed to bypass them whenever we want to? I mean at this point, it doesn't really matter what order rhydon and charizard were banned in, especially since uu tier council has already made up their mind and there was a 0% to convince otherwise, especially in the 3 days charizard was discussed. 

 

Also how am I the bad guy when I want to follow the tiering protocols? 

[gbwead]

I don't have a problem with Charizard getting banned. He clearly fits the uber offensive criteria in my mind.

 

[hr]

 

Is there anything that stops the UU council from banning Rhydon as well?

 

I know we had a discussion about multiban, but we all know Rhydon is not healthy for the tier.

 

Arte statement (01/09/2015):

"Stall is the major issue with rhydon as it does almost completely invalidate it with a couple exceptions" 

 

Since Rhydon doesn't fit the Uber offensive characterisics (not a sweeper),he can only be banned as an unhealthy wall breaker. Test banning Rhydon seems to be the ideal solution because it would not invalidate the Zard ban. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by lamerb

[DoubleJ]

Because your legit throwing a hissy fit over this. Zard is scary as fuck to the entire tier. Rhydon is scary as fuck but only to stall. It has no safe switch ins to specific moves but tbh what choice band user does have a consistently safe switch in?

It will get banned. Just not now.

[BurntZebra]

But why would you chop off the arm when only the hand might be the issue? I honestly think that charizard *could* have been more balanced without rhydon. Rhydon sure as hell isn't more balanced without charizard in the meta. 

[gbwead]

Because your legit throwing a hissy fit over this. Zard is scary as fuck to the entire tier. Rhydon is scary as fuck but only to stall. It has no safe switch ins to specific moves but tbh what choice band user does have a consistently safe switch in?

It will get banned. Just not now.

I don't mean any disrespect JJ, but I don't understand.

 

Why do you say "it will get banned"? 

Are you saying it is not banworthy right now, but it will become banworthy?

 

Edit:

Rhydon sure as hell isn't more balanced without charizard in the meta. 

Is that what you meant?

Edited September 12, 2015 by lamerb

[Artemiseta]

no lamb

he is saying we can only ban one pokemon at a time. we chose zard as the bigger issue right now.

in the next month rhydon will continue to be evaluated to be banned or not to be banned

that is if my phrasing is correct right now

 

also for Robo my wording of the 101 speed was poorly done (I blame lesson planning for the next week and the mounting sack of papers to grade) the main point of that is point number 2 in my ban decision post.

rhydon is easily revenge killed as a check especially compared to Zard is the main point

Edited September 12, 2015 by Artemiseta

[Robofiend]

Hey you guys do you and we'll do us, ok?

 

I really try, but it's hard to have faith when you guys do things like this. You have to understand that it sucks for me and Zebra, because we helped write the rules to stop this exact thing from happening. I don't want to have to take issue, but I've spent a lot of time on the tiering council and watched a lot of dumb shit happen because we didn't have real rules (e.g. Senile's "lets ban everything plan 2014").  I also know it seems like there's some conspiracy or some shit where Zebra and I are ganging up and telling you off, but it's happening for a very real reason: there are rules and you/your councilmen are refusing to follow them.

 

I know that another part of this is because there are only 2 of you doing all of the work, and that's fucked up. Why hasn't Barrage been kicked? Is there anyone else in this game who can spare some of there time for this? (@Noad?) It really just doesn't make sense to have a tiering council if there's only 2 people on it and they almost always agree. That's essentially the Senile/ThinkNice problem I had to live with forever.

 

As for the rest of this: I generally don't care what you guys do, but there's a reason we made the rules the way they are now: it's to prevent things from happening in 3 days without most of the community actually getting to say anything about it. If you think less than a page of discussion somehow constitutes a consensus, then I really have no response. So ban Charizard, ban Rhydon, do whatever, but please just follow the rules. 

 

Let me reiterate: I really don't care that much what you do, but I do care how you do it, and I think I'm speaking for Zebra as well on this one. These rules aren't ridiculous - two weeks is a short time. A month is a short time. But neither is so short that you can just say "Hey here's an idea" and then make it happen two days later without getting some criticism. I know you may not like it, but a large part of being on the council is having people tell you that you're an idiot for proposing things.

 

I'd also like to point out charizard broke tiering protocol.

1. 2. Only one suspect test per tier at one time. Suspect threads will remain open for a minimum of two weeks. 

Charizard thread was open for a whopping 3 days until it was banned, with only 18 posts on it. I would request a reversal of this decision as it goes against tiering policy. 

 

This.

[gbwead]

I don't think the 1 month rule from the policy applies though.

 

I remember reading something from Senile saying that, when a pokemon fits an Uber characteristic, there is no need to test ban it because he won't affect in anyway the healthiness of the tier. If there is any truth to this, I don't think there is any point to wait 1 month to evaluate the meta since the meta won't change when it comes to healthiness. Rhydon doesn't fit any other criteria other than unhealthiness (invalidates stall as a playstyle).

 

Futhermore, a test ban is not a real ban, so you would not really be banning Rhydon but only testing the meta. Therefore, the 1 month rule doesn't apply there as well. 

 

I guess policy can be interpreted in many ways XD I will read the robo post now ^^

[DoubleJ]

Yo tbh robo, not being in the game really hurts you. I get whispers from players every tourney asking for a char ban. Discussion or not, the request has been existing since ya'll forced it back in the tier.

Rhydon will have its time. Char is a bigger threat. If you want to overturn this ban then so be it. If so I'm out.

Edit: and even then, art might decide to just wait the appropriate amount of time and ban charizard because in our opinion zard is a huge that. I really don't see why you guys are in disagreement. If you are online you can see flamethrower zard straight killing standard walls, bdrum sweeping entire teams, and dd clutching late game gg's after checks are taken down to like 40% health.

It's fucking op.

Edited September 12, 2015 by DoubleJ

[gbwead]

Î haven't heard any complaints about the Zard ban either. Some players have even said to me that it was long overdue.

[DrCraig]

I don't think the 1 month rule from the policy applies though.
 
I remember reading something from Senile saying that, when a pokemon fits an Uber characteristic, there is no need to test ban it because he won't affect in anyway the healthiness of the tier. If there is any truth to this, I don't think there is any point to wait 1 month to evaluate the meta since the meta won't change when it comes to healthiness. Rhydon doesn't fit any other criteria other than unhealthiness (invalidates stall as a playstyle).
 
Futhermore, a test ban is not a real ban, so you would not really be banning Rhydon but only testing the meta. Therefore, the 1 month rule doesn't apply there as well. 
 
I guess policy can be interpreted in many ways XD I will read the robo post now ^^

nah that's not what he rule is

It literally means 1 ban per month. Not 1 test ban, or 1 Pokemon as long as it's test banned. 1 Pokemon can be banned each month, in any way except quick bans, which do not apply.
(I think it's dumb)

[Robofiend]

Yo tbh robo, not being in the game really hurts you. I get whispers from players every tourney asking for a char ban. Discussion or not, the request has been existing since ya'll forced it back in the tier.

Rhydon will have its time. Char is a bigger threat. If you want to overturn this ban then so be it. If so I'm out.

 

I know, and I wish I could be in game more for that exact reason. I've just been balls deep in work for the last month and it just hasn't been appealing to grind at coding all day and then come home and grind at MMO-ing, or spend my little free time on the weekends sweating in my apartment gaming. 

 

I really wish you wouldn't make this a "me or Charizard" kind of ultimatum, especially when I technically don't get to make the decision. You're a great person to have on TC in terms of knowing how comp play works and being a name in the community. Like I keep saying, I really don't care about what bans you guys do, I just think you have to be more patient about it.

[DoubleJ]

I edited my recent post to add a couple notes. And robo I really don't want it to be this way but to be honest i really don't know where ya'll are getting hooked up on. Zard is an absolute monster with insane diversity. Yes rhydon is too but for like the fifth time zard threatens the whole tier while rhydon threatens only one play-style. It was the right choice in our opinion. So please, just respect it. If you had a problem with tiering protocol you should have made that point first rather than trying to say we banned the wrong pokemon first. Its fucking childish and i dont want to be associated with a group of empowered individuals that want to make their decisions number one at every turn. This council isn't a team whatsoever and that is what drove me away in the first place.

[gbwead]

(I think it's dumb)

Well I agree. In this situation, Zard is a Uber ban and Rhydon is an unhealthy ban.

The 1 month rule should not apply because they independantly affect the meta in their own way.

You could wait 1, 2, 3 ,6, 12 months and it wouldn't change the fact that the Zard ban doesn't take anything away from the unhealthiness Rhydon brings to the tier.

The 1 month rule makes sense when we are talking about 2 uber bans or 2 unhealthy bans, but that is not the case.

[Robofiend]

I edited my recent post to add a couple notes. And robo I really don't want it to be this way but to be honest i really don't know where ya'll are getting hooked up on. Zard is an absolute monster with insane diversity. Yes rhydon is too but for like the fifth time zard threatens the whole tier while rhydon threatens only one play-style. It was the right choice in our opinion. So please, just respect it. If you had a problem with tiering protocol you should have made that point first rather than trying to say we banned the wrong pokemon first. Its fucking childish and i dont want to be associated with a group of empowered individuals that want to make their decisions number one at every turn. This council isn't a team whatsoever and that is what drove me away in the first place.

 

The problem is that we need a system that doesn't get all broken when people aren't forum active for a couple of days. I was home sick, for instance, and figured I'd bide my time and actually see what everyone else had to say because there's always a two-week timer on these things. Maybe there were a lot of other people like me out there, you really can't claim to have the entire community on your side with this one, as you didn't even take time to make a poll.

 

On topic of Zard: yeah, it's strong, but part of the reason it's strong is because it's best checks get absolutely run over by Rhydon. Just because it can sweep late game by DD-ing doesn't make it OP, nor does it even have that high of a usage rate. Among the best of the best players in this game (Summer Finale), Charizard had 20% usage! Rhydon comparably had 40%. It's beyond me how you look at that and say "Well obviously Rhydon's ok and we need to ban Charizard first, espeically given how hit and miss Charizard really is in standard play.

 

I agree that this organization needs to be more like a team but there are two things that need to happen for that to be realized:

 

1. JJ, Nik and Zebra need to stop being at each others throats and making accusations about the others intentions. It often seems like all of you are making decisions and bitching at each other just to spite each other. No, LYLE's not just ganging up out of hatred, no Zebra's not doing everything he can to spite you. You just have different ideas of what should be banned or not, and let your in-game rivalry get the best of you there. I'm also guilty of being caustic, but I like to tihnk I only really chime in when people are making ad hominems (not cool) or suggesting we violate tiering policy (also not cool). I too could probably stand to tone down the rofls but sometimes the shit I read just make my "wat" levels go overboard. 

 

2. We need another person on the UU council who is active in the game/tier and can provide a third opinion when needed. I'd really like to see Gunthug on the council, but I've also been told his schedule/work life doesn't necessarily allow it. If you guys can think of anyone like that, I think it'd be a lot better, because right now Zebra and I are compelled to take the opposite side just because there's never any disagreement - and when there's no disagreement there's no actual critical thought going on nor progress being made.

[DrCraig]

I asked Gunthug a several weeks ago and he said he can't

And check Robofiend making references to groupthink and how conflicting idea promote better ideas, little guy gettin educated

Where is Frags?

[DoubleJ]

The problem is that we need a system that doesn't get all broken when people aren't forum active for a couple of days. I was home sick, for instance, and figured I'd bide my time and actually see what everyone else had to say because there's always a two-week timer on these things. Maybe there were a lot of other people like me out there, you really can't claim to have the entire community on your side with this one, as you didn't even take time to make a poll.

 

On topic of Zard: yeah, it's strong, but part of the reason it's strong is because it's best checks get absolutely run over by Rhydon. Just because it can sweep late game by DD-ing doesn't make it OP, nor does it even have that high of a usage rate. Among the best of the best players in this game (Summer Finale), Charizard had 20% usage! Rhydon comparably had 40%. It's beyond me how you look at that and say "Well obviously Rhydon's ok and we need to ban Charizard first, espeically given how hit and miss Charizard really is in standard play.

 

I agree that this organization needs to be more like a team but there are two things that need to happen for that to be realized:

 

1. JJ, Nik and Zebra need to stop being at each others throats and making accusations about the others intentions. It often seems like all of you are making decisions and uguuing at each other just to spite each other. No, LYLE's not just ganging up out of hatred, no Zebra's not doing everything he can to spite you. You just have different ideas of what should be banned or not, and let your in-game rivalry get the best of you there. I'm also guilty of being caustic, but I like to tihnk I only really chime in when people are making ad hominems (not cool) or suggesting we violate tiering policy (also not cool). I too could probably stand to tone down the rofls but sometimes the shit I read just make my "wat" levels go overboard. 

 

2. We need another person on the UU council who is active in the game/tier and can provide a third opinion when needed. I'd really like to see Gunthug on the council, but I've also been told his schedule/work life doesn't necessarily allow it. If you guys can think of anyone like that, I think it'd be a lot better, because right now Zebra and I are compelled to take the opposite side just because there's never any disagreement - and when there's no disagreement there's no actual critical thought going on nor progress being made.

 

I just made a reasonable post explaining the differences between Zard and Rhydon in the "UU Threat List" and why we decided to ban it before Rhydon. We have also nominated a player, who agreed to join, in the place of Barrage. This player is Frags, but for some reason he just hasn't been added yet. I don't know why and I really haven't gotten an answer why. 

 

Also, I really was excited to work with Zebra because of our differing opinions on play-styles, unfortunately this shit has just gotten so broken that Zebra can't step down when his opinion isn't taking as the gospel. If you want us to undo the Charizard ban then get the overseers to do it. We'll wait another 11 days or whatever and ban Charizard then, setting UU back that many days and having to force players to wait for a Rhydon ban that much longer. Beyond that we can discuss further bans. 

 

 

EDIT: Ok the thing about Frags is a bit false, we were concerned about Frags reliability in discussing topics with his general aversion to comp alley. We suggested toast as a second option and we are yet to hear what the overseers have to say. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by DoubleJ

[NikhilR]

 

1. JJ, Nik and Zebra need to stop being at each others throats and making accusations about the others intentions. It often seems like all of you are making decisions and uguuing at each other just to spite each other. No, LYLE's not just ganging up out of hatred, no Zebra's not doing everything he can to spite you. You just have different ideas of what should be banned or not, and let your in-game rivalry get the best of you there. I'm also guilty of being caustic, but I like to tihnk I only really chime in when people are making ad hominems (not cool) or suggesting we violate tiering policy (also not cool). I too could probably stand to tone down the rofls but sometimes the shit I read just make my "wat" levels go overboard. 

 

 

I honestly don't do things to spite Zebra Robo, but sometimes some of the things that he has said is ridiculous. Read the Rhydon discussion thread for some of them. I can understand if he wants Rhydon banned for the right reasons, but all of the reasons he's made has been bullshit so far, like how Rhydon prevents Zard's counters from being run. 

 

Another reason why Charizard ban is right in my eyes, is because 2 members have even asked for a ban on it in the UU discussion request thread. In the discussion thread, every single person has voted on a charizard ban. Whereas in the Rhydon thread, it's mixed views from everyone. So the obvious decision at the moment would be to ban charizard and then assess the Rhydon situation more.

 

Another thing that I do dislike, is Zebra's saltiness. Every time he loses, he puts some blame or the other on my teammates and especially when he's being unreasonable. He goes around in game calling it the "LYLE UU Tier Council" and gives the tier council a bad name by making it look biased. Every time a decision doesn't go his way, he starts throwing tantrums. 

 

"Oh why didn't you guys ban Gengar yet, it's clearly not so op"

"You guys banned Charizard before Rhydon, WHAT?"

"NU Tier council, why aren't you banning Ampharos? It has  huge usage"

 

Believe me, I look at everything from a rational point of view, but just coming in here and attacking the UU tier council for making the right decision is just plain dumb. Hence the reason why I'm defending my teammates. 

 

EDIT: If you feel the UU tier council has been doing things wrong, talk to them, don't just attack them for doing their job. Whether or not the Charizard thread was open for 2 weeks, the end result would've been the same. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by NikhilR

[Tyrone]

Locking this thread as it's just personal attack vs personal attack even after the verdict has been made. Cut it out.

 

Charizard has been banned because it was uber, NO ARGUMENT HERE! The UU Council and the community agreed to this almost unanymously.

This ban did NOT go against any tiering policy at all. (except that I wasn't notified when it happend which should've been the case as I'm the UU TC leader and not Noad)

 

Next up we will investigate Rhydon, which is less unanymously considered uber than Charizard because of it's more prevalent weaknesses.

 

Also I'll be looking a little harder for a 3rd UU council member who is willing to help out.