VadimEmpoleon

Gallade Now that new answers to Gallade are confirmed to be released in the upcoming updates I believe that the best thing to do is keep as it is until the new answers to Gallade are released just like Rache said. Dugtrio and Arena Trap When it comes to Dugtrio, I believe Dugtrio does not fit the Uber Support characteristic but is uncompetitive so Arena Trap+Dugtrio should be complex banned. I'd rather ban Arena Trap as a whole because even if Trapinch and Diglett are not very interesting mons if they get to be used with this ability they will still rely on the uncompetitive aspect of this ability which can't be consistently prevented like Pursuit or Magnet Pull. I know some will disagree with an Arena Trap ban so probably the best thing to do is the complex ban on Dugtrio because I don't think anyone would care much about Trapinch or Diglett having it. Not going to give many arguments now on why I think this way because there isn't a discussion going on for it right now. If the ban happened I totally disagree with doing any other thing that is not the Arena Trap+Dugtrio complex ban because removing moves or reducing stats seems like a more obtrusive way to me. It should also be removed from BL if AT+Dugtrio complex ban happens. Opening a discussion for it right now seems like the best option imo. I believe there is nothing in the Tier Policies against it. It would be a good idea to add a Tier Policy that sets a period of time in which a ban can't be voted again to happen after being rejected unless important changes happen within the tier (this case) to prevent situations like this. Shaymin It should be retested in UU, Mandibuzz always countered it. Stalling Seed Flare was also always a good way of dealing with it. And of course Entei, Salamence, Raikou, Ninetales are now in the tier and can annoy Shaymin. Yanmega Like I said in the NU Discussion Thread I think the best thing is doing a suspect test for 1 month. Rhyperior I think this mon also deserves a suspect test, it was banned long ago and all I can see in this mon is a better Rhydon, slightly better stats and better ability. Recovery moves PP nerf While I understand that for consistency they have 8 PP, this affects the metagame in a bad way, this increases the viability of Regenerator mons and Wish mons which were already very viable when recovery moves had 16 PP but reduces the viability of other defensive mons, it also affects the viability of some setup sweepers like Reuniclus or Sigilyph. This change adds nothing positive. A similar case are the gems which still have their 50% boost instead of the 30% and this is a good thing because they become useless with a 30% boost. Returning the recovery moves to 16 PP is just a single change and would affect positively every tier, I believe this is a very good reason to do it. Acupressure This move should be included in the evasion Clause along with Minimize and Double Team. Vaporeon ¿? Crawdaunt ¿?

@Rache sorry for bothering you but I wanted to ask why Sharpness was reversed back to x1.5, I believed it could be because of the adittion of Zapdos in the same update but a confirmation would be really helpful and what could we do if we believed it's banworthy in OU, would the same method of asking for a discussion thread still apply in this case? Thank you in advance.

Was it ever confirmed why Sharpness was reversed to x1.5?

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I suggest doing a 1 month test for Yanmega in case its usage doesn't rise by the end of the month. I think NU is probably better without Yanmega but there are some mons that can deal with the Choice Specs Tinted Lens variant like Calm Mantine (except HP Electric), Gigalith, Cryogonal, Golbat (except Psychic), Calm Articuno?, (doesn't seem very good to use for any other purpose), Audino. U-turn seems problematic though. A good part of the sweepers in NU are also faster than Yanmega like Cinccino, Adamant Sceptile, Tauros, Typhlosion, Mismagius, Zoroark, etc. Some have Sturdy like Golem and some have Focus Sash like Froslass. The Speed Boost variant doesn't seem like a big threat and it could be interesting to see it in the tier because it would manage to surpass common mons in NU like Scarf Blaziken and strong threats like Torterra. My main concern about it is U-turn but I think it's worth a try to test it.

From Forums Tiering Definitions: What is a Check? A pokemon that under normal conditions can beat the opposing pokemon before it is itself beaten. Switching into the opposing pokemon should usually be costly, risky or impossible depending on the situation. 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 88-105 (60.6 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 88-108 (58.6 - 72%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 132-162 (88 - 108%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 176-216 (117.3 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 132-156 (88 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 198-234 (132 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO Edit 1: Weavile is a Serperior check by definition, at least in most situations, but this still has nothing to do with Gallade. Edit 2: Added CB Weavile calcs too.

IGN: VadimEmpoleon The light that will lead you in the dark.

Entei has 5 more points in base Speed which is very important allowing it to surpass important threats like Sigilyph or Yanmega. It doesn’t need to rely on moves that have recoil damage so it doesn’t die as easy as Arcanine. It can burn easily with Sacred Fire. Stone Edge is superior to Close Combat and Wild Charge right now imo. It has better stats. The only good thing I see about Arcanine is that it has better abilities.

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Agreed, specially because its best counter is back in the tier (Mandibuzz), Bronzong can stall Seed Flare too, with Empoleon gone and Bronzong back things like Rotom Heat will gain even more viability also.

Yep, I meant the average number of the desired mon that you would find with 6 hordes. With hordes of 3 at 50% you are less likely to encounter a shiny because you are doing less encounters in the same time but the % of getting Shiny Larvitar would be the same because you would be getting the same number of Larvitar encounters per amount of time.

I like this suggestion but I guess it would be hard to find a replace for some hordes to rotate them montly because some locations in the map have very few mons that can appear like is the case of Dragon's Den in Johto where only Magikarp, Dratini and Dragonair appear. I think something that could work is instead of making the hordes have a different %, make them all have the same % but change some of them to hordes of 3 mons instead, this would also affect the hordes that you find by walking. Let's see how it would affect some hordes: If the location has 2 hordes with 70/30% and the desired one is the 30% one then the average number of mons of that type that you would see in 6 hordes would be 6x5x0,3=9. If the same location had those same hordes with 50/50 % but the hordes were of 3 then the number would be 6x3x0,5=9. The desired mon would have the same rate in both situations. Some aspects that should be considered with this change: The most relevant one is probably that the % of getting a shiny overall is lower this way because you see less mons in the same amount of time. If we stick to the case of only 2 possible hordes the new % of getting the desired shiny would be higher for the mons that currently have a horde rate of 0-30% and lower for the ones that have a 30-50% rate. It would make shinies which currently appear only in hordes of 3 and that have a lower horde % compared to the hordes that appear in the same location more common. I am not sure if hordes like this exist though, they probably do but I don't think they are many. The possibility of getting a same mon multiple times is lower. The information would be more clear because we would know the % of every horde just by knowing how many hordes appear in the location, right now we can't know the exact %. The price of some common shinies would likely increase. Another thing that I believe would be good to change is the variety of hordes we have right now. I find that mons like Raticate of Fearow are too common, two examples I can think of right now are: Ruin Valley (Kanto) Currently only hordes of Fearow appear here In the original games the mon with the highest % of appearing here is Natu with a 25% encounter rate, Fearow only has a 10%. It is true that Spearow also has a 20% in the original games but Natu doesn't even appear as a second horde and it is a mon that only appears as a horde in only one other location (Ruins of Alph). Route 18 (Kanto) Currently hordes of Raticate and Doduo appear here In the original games Doduo has a 35% which is a high enough % imo to appear alone as a horde, Raticate has a lower rate of 15% and Rattata a rate of 5%. There are more examples with other common mons.

I suggest testing Rhyperior in NU.

Prankster gives +1 priority to status moves and Bullet Punch has +1 priority, if the status move used by the Prankster mon has 0 base priority it would become +1 thanks to Prankster resulting in both the move with Prankster and Bullet Punch having the same priority of +1 so the faster mon moves first.

I mostly agree with Orange's ratings. I agree that the Regi Trio and the Lake Trio are the best choices to be introduced, I think Meloetta would also be a good addition to start with. From the legendaries that are missing I guess Kyurem would be fine to add in its base form. Great post. Edit: I believe the Therian Formes of Tornadus, Thundurus and Landorus would require a B2W2 rom to be added.

Wouldn’t it be possible to ban them from relevant PvE instances? For example in a similar way you can’t use the same species or same items in some PvE instances like Red or Pumpking (you get a message saying you can’t battle it), we could have a space in the dex (it could be ubers or something different) for those mons so even newer players can find this info and therefore avoiding confusion. There are also mons that would probably be overpowered for PvP but not for PvE, for example the luck based ones, do these ones have any chance of getting introduced? And thank you for answering the previous questions in this post, it is really interesting to know all this info.

Thank you, will fix it, forgot to remove the -1 after doing the Salamence calc

A mon having more or less mons that can revenge kill is important for a discussion.

It was a comparation of another mon in UU with Entei that has nothing to do with Crawdaunt being or not being healthy for this metagame. Or I have to just not talk about this mon at all? Also I don't see the need in quoting me for this.

Yep but it's not that easy to have all those hazards and mons like Spiritomb, Durant, Bisharp, Krookodile, etc. can resist Extreme Speed decently. Crawdaunt deals even more damage and the mons that resist it are not many apart from Poliwrath, Toxicroak and Rotom Mow.

The things said considering changes that will most likely happen are important because those changes would change the metagame and some of them might happen soon. Because if it kills something you would want to revenge kill it. Every mon gets to kill sometimes, that is literally how matches end, mon kills another mon. It is something used in some offensive teams and there is no harm in mentioning it, it is not like I said Entei is fine because Reflect exists. I disagree, I don't consider Extreme Speed's damage enough to be considered too high, I see you do, guess we just can't agree on this. To be more accurate I will use an example: 252 Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 84-99 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I don't consider this too much, it is a good damage but that's it in my opinion. Back in the day when Crawdaunt appeared in UU Poliwrath gained a lot of usage and ended in UU too, right now its usage is lower but mons like Rotom Mow have a higher usage so there is always something that can defeat Crawdaunt with a high usage. If Crawdaunt was banned Gigalith, Hippowdon, Slowbro, Rhyperior, Rotom Heat would be more viable than now. Mismagius, which can force an Entei locked in Extreme Speed to switch out, would also be better than now because it wouldn't have to worry about losing 80% Health from an Aqua Jet. Probably more offensive mons that take a lot of Damage from Aqua Jet would be seen more in UU if Crawdaunt was gone. It is hard to predict what would be good if Bronzong, Mandibuzz and Salamence drop, and we are not even sure if they will drop, they likely will but it may change still. Anyway, compared to any other arguments the Crawdaunt's one is the least important and since I don't want to turn this Entei discussion into Crawdaunt discussion I'd rather not talk about Crawdaunt again.

Entei should remain in UU. There is a considerable number of mons that can stop it, I will first talk about Entei in no sun teams: The best answers I believe are: Poliwrath which doesn't fear getting burned because it runs Rest and Scald most of the time. Gastrodon doesn't fear burn either because it runs Special attacks most of the time. Jellicent which also doesn't fear burn but can ge 2HKO'ed by Crunch, this implies the Entei's user needs to predict and it can even not work if Cursed Body activates. Snorlax, which unlike stated above, doesn't fear the burn most of the time because it runs Rest, it can also use Sleep Talk. Salamence, assuming it drops down, can also stop Entei unless it uses Stone Edge which involves prediction and no miss from Stone Edge, it is also important to note that Stone Edge has a high critic % and that Salamence is weak to Stealth Rock. Milotic, with Empoleon gone and 2 additional defog users in the tier (Salamence and Mandibuzz) Milotic can be a decent mon in UU again, it can take advantage of its Competitive ability to punish defog users and it can also stop Entei, Salamence also has Intimidate which would activate Competitive. Not only that but it can also run Marvel Scale to get an extra Defense against Entei if getting burned by Sacred Fire. Slowbro, it doesn't fear getting burned but can get 2HKO'ed by Crunch. Politoed but it's only used in rain teams. Other answers that are not as good as the stated above are: Arcanine, its defensive variant is not a very good mon for current UU and it is also weak to Stealth Rock and to Stone Edge. Gligar which dislikes the burn and doesn't have passive recovery from Leftovers making it weak to Stealth Rock turning it into a non reliable answer for long games. Moltres which is weak to Rock type and it probably not good enough to be UU (it is most likely dropping by usage). Vaporeon, I find its Bold variant not worth using in current UU but with the next changes in April it can become more viable. Tentacruel, I don't think it is viable with its Bold variant. Swampert, it can stop it effectively running Scald and/or Rest but I don't think it's defensive variant is good enough in current UU. Dusclops which takes a lot of damage but has enough resistance to survive 2 Sacred Fire, it is also very good when it comes to stalling the move, it suffers against Crunch tho. Hippowdon which dislikes the burn. Mantine which despite being NU I consider a decent mon for UU but it dies to Stone Edge. Rotom Heat can resist Sacred Fire but can't resist Stone Edge. Quagsire can stop it but it's probably not that good in UU and it doesn't like the burn because most of the times it runs EQ and Scald. Druddigon which despite resisting the attacks doesn't run a recovery move and most of the time won't have passive recovery from Leftovers because of using Rocky Helmet. Gigalith which dislikes the burn but some of them run Rest so it can be a good answer. I believe this is more than enough mons to deal with a non sun boosted Entei in a defensive way, there are mons in UU which don't have even half of answers to them that Entei has. Regarding the defensive mons that can stop Entei in Sun, they are of course more limited but this is normal because the point of setting up a weather is to take advantage of it: Hippowdon which still dislikes the burn but can effectively remove the Sun while surviving against Entei in most cases. Gigalith similar case to Hippowdon. Politoed which is only used in rain. Milotic, assuming it was burned previously. Salamence can survive Entei's fire attacks. Slowbro can also survive the fire attacks. Poliwrath, Gastrodon, Jellicent, Quagsire have a chance of surviving against 2 Flare Blitz in sun. Swampert can stop it in sun but it's very close and it lacks recovery move apart from Rest. Druddigon can survive Flare Blitz and cause a lot of damage to Entei because of recoil, Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin, it still fears a burn from Sacred Fire tho. This said, even if some mons dislike getting burned Heal Bell exists and good mons like Umbreon or Vaporeon have it in UU. Also Entei will lose health if it uses Flare Blitz making it easier to revenge kill it. Now let's look at the offensive mons that can revenge kill it: Crawdaunt with Aqua Jet if Entei lost some health previously. Any rain abuser in rain teams. Ambipom. Feraligatr but it doesn't like the burn. Scarf Krookodile. Flygon with its CB, Scarf and mixed LO variants. Rhyperior but it dislikes the burn. Salamence with Choice Specs. Raikou with Scald+Choice Specs can deal a good amount of damage. Durant as long as it doesn't miss Rock Slide/Stone Edge. Krookodile with Pursuit can punish it if it uses Stone Edge or Crunch. Spiritomb with Pursuit can punish it if it uses Extreme Speed. Donphan it it doesn't get burned can OHKO it. Rotom Heat can resist it and deal some damage with Discharge/Thunderbolt/Volt Switch. Blastoise can set up and kill Entei. Many other faster mons like Crobat, Jolteon, Sucker Punch Bisharp, Choice Scarf Heracross, Choice Scarf Medicham, etc. can deal a good amount of damage and finish it it is is not at 100%, it is weak to Stealth Rock so making it lose some amount of health is not hard to achieve. When it comes to offensive teams they can also effectively deal with Entei with the use of Reflect and Entei can't do much against rain teams. It is important to note that Entei can finish weakened mons with Extreme Speed but its damage is not so high to consider it a big threat. Sacred Fire is also easy to stall from my point of view. UU's metagame would have even more tools to deal with Entei if unhealthy mons like Crawdaunt that crippled UU for so long were where they belong which is OU, UU's metagame evolved into a metagame with mons that can deal with Crawdaunt almost always present, Poliwrath is a good example of this, good mons like Rotom Heat decreased in usage while mons like Rotom Mow increased in usage. Ground type mons would be more viable without Crawdaunt, there would be less fear of using mons like Krookodile and even some mons like Aerodactyl which would be decent in current UU's metagame with Bronzong not present. Right now Crawdaunt doesn't even have a high usage because of everyone covering it. This metagame is defined by a fear to a mon that doesn't even have a high usage. Entei is not the problem, Crawdaunt is and always was a problem.

Actually, it is not just 2 mons, I just used those 2 as example:

I completely agree with this, as player that usually plays balanced teams and can't stop every single mon defensively I need to prevent some situations from happening in the field. Many aspects are important like hazards, the HP % of your mons, etc. I can't agree with this though. I believe Gallade can get a lot of opportunities in OU against walls, special sweepers and slower physical sweepers: Walls: Chansey, Porygon2, Blissey, Rotom-W (with specific sets/items), Reuniclus, Amoonguss, Ferrothorn Special Sweepers: Gengar (only with AV), Starmie, Espeon, Infernape (It can use U-Turn and therefore do something at least), Magnezone (It can use Volt Switch), Serperior, Chandelure (with AV and in specific conditions), Hydreigon (It can use U-Turn), Volcarona (in specific conditions). Physical Sweepers: Scizor (only if Scizor holds CB and is locked in a move that is not Bullet Punch), Tyranitar (needs to be careful with the Scarf Tyranitar variant), Breloom (needs to be careful with possible Focus Sash), Infernape (It can use U-Turn), Lucario, Mamoswine (needs to be careful with possible Focus Sash), Conkeldurr, Mienshao (It can use U-Turn) Apart from these there are slower mons that can kill Gallade or faster ones that can survive at least one hit from Gallade that would lose to Gallade after a low HP loss. This list can change a lot depending on many factors, it would also be very different for Scarf Gallade variant. I believe this allows Gallade to get a lot of opportunities to come into the field. It is true though that mons with a high usage like Garchomp, Dragonite or Pelipper can prevent it from coming into the field. I guess we can't agree on this one which is fine. About Zapdos, I agree with everything, I didn't mention Brave Bird because I consider Hurricane to be much useful against other mons that are not Gallade in the tier but it's true that it shouldn't be overlooked. You are right about this one, rocks are very relevant in OU because many matches have rocks in the field. I am just that player that can run up to 3 Defog or Stealth Rocks mons so I usually don't care about rocks and I overlooked it. Completely agree on this one and I believe it is really important. It is true that Gallade didn't have a big impact in the usage of other mons in the tier. I personally don't like limiting myself to use Sableye (if it had another answer apart from Sableye that is more viable in the tier I would probably use it more but I find Sableye underwhelming to use it in a lot of teams) when playing balanced/stall teams so I just add more mons that can prevent it from coming into the field (I did the same thing with Hydreigon). When playing offensive teams I don't think Gallade is a big issue so it is not a big factor when teambuilding. This makes Gallade a bigger issue for balanced/stall teams and I think those types of teams are not used as much as offensive ones in OU (I don't have numbers so I can't confirm it but I believe it is this way). If those teams have lower usage it is expected that the tier will change less with Gallade's presence. And finally, I left this for last one because I couldn't understand it at first but now I do. It is true that UU and NU games are much more diverse despite having unbalanced shifts. The thing is that I find the mons that are in those tiers more manageable. It is also important to note that many players if a mon is very strong but has a low usage will ignore and or at least won't give it much attention (for example they would run something that can stop it from sweeping but will not a run a solid answer to it), this happens with Togekiss in OU, it happens with Sigilyph, Crawdaunt, Mismagius in UU and there are many other examples. Another important factor is the difference in the playerbase between OU and lower tiers, many new players start in OU and they would usually use standard teams to get used to the competitive scene which results in less variety in the tier, I also think that the number of viable mons in OU is lower than in UU or NU. I may have missed something or didn't include everything I wanted to, I had my comment deleted after finishing it because I hit "Submit Reply" but didn't realize I had no connection so I had to write everything again :(.

I agree but there could be exceptions for different reasons, I personally didn't discuss anything about the x1.4 Sharpness boost even though I found it overwhelming because I wanted Draco Meteor Hydreigon to be the main focus.