Senile

Well, "mr Staff", here's how to solve the issue: Stop completely overrating/overhyping Wobbuffet. I don't understand where you pulled this magical assumption out of your hat of tricks that Wobbuffet is going to be so insanely popular that it will literally destroy the format and turn battles into cancerous stalls. Because, as it happens, Wobbuffet is actually kind of not at all good in 1v1. What does Wobbuffet beat in 1v1? Let's see: Pokemon whose 4 moves are all attacking moves. Specifically, attacking moves that are all physical or all special, since if it's a mixed attacker, Wobbu has to play around a 50/50. ... That's it. Even Choiced pokemon could kill Wobbuffet by running Toxic or something. Wobbuffet loses to so many fucking pokemon, it is really not very good, especially since it can't use Destiny Bond. What does it do against a pokemon with a setup move? Toxic? Substitute? Sure, if their non-attacking move doesn't boost their attacking power and has low enough PP, Wobbu might be able to stall them out and force them to attack, or they might have to play around them a bit to conserve PP so they don't run out of Counter or Mirror Coat or whatever, but realistically, it's safe to say Wobbuffet just has a losing matchup against most pokemon. And if it's matchups are that bad, why the fuck is it going to be so incredibly popular? Especially considering, you know, how many people are running around with a comp-ready wobbuffet, and are convinced of it's godly powers in 1v1? Much less PP maxed ones, since it'll probably end up PP stalling to even have a chance of trying to win some matchups. Even in the INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY situation it does end up 1v1, just put in a rule that Wobbuffet 1v1s will be decided by a literal coinflip by staff or something to save time. tl;dr guy i hate this anti wobbu agenda so much smh

I don't know how much future gens you've played, if you believe Focus Sash and Eviolite will ever approach being anywhere near banworthy. Stealth Rocks >>>>> Focus Sash. Running a 6x Sash team is begging to lose. Eviolite isn't banworthy either. There's a crazy amount of NFE pokemon, and I'll tell you this much, not a single one of them has gone to Ubers because of Eviolite in any generation. Porygon2 is good. Dusclops is...alright. Chansey is a pretty good OU pokemon. Banworthy? Doubtful at best.

Salamence/Dragonite are coming down with DD themselves, and even they have to compete as setup sweepers with Weather-based offense like Swift Swim & Excadrill. Sure, he has a niche because we don't have Garchomp, so his typing is still unique, but I definitely don't think DD will help it's OU viability. If anything, it might see usage as a choice pokemon because of U-turn, but even then, I doubt it'll be very common past the first few weeks where people are still using old comps.

Alright, so based on the responses, I think I've got a better idea of what the metagame might look like after the update. I've made a new OU list, and I'll provide reasoning for some of my removals/additions (at least, the ones I haven't already explained). Before that though, I'm going to go ahead and list all the assumptions I'm making for this list. No Hidden Abilities. No Legendaries. Any pokemon not on the OU/UU/NU lists provided beforehand will not be released. This means Gastrodon, Infernape, Rotom, Hippowdon, Garchomp, Toxicroak, etc. Pelipper is getting Drizzle and Torkoal is getting Drought. Damp Rock and the other weather extending stones are being released, and perma-weather is gone. I don't think this is confirmed, but it seems like a really safe bet to me. Keep in mind if this is true or not drastically effects OU imo, since I'm assuming they will be out, and if they are, I think rain will be incredibly dominant. If they won't be released, then fuck me the list I've given you is flawed gg it has to be revised again Good Defog. Pokemon I've removed without prior reasoning in my last post will be discussed at the bottom. Pokemon that I've added will be bolded and explained within the list. Any pokemon I'm adding that I think are more BL than OU will be pointed out. So, without further ado, here you go: OU Removed pokemon: And that's about it. I think I covered mostly everything. I didn't bother with UU, because that's waaaaay bigger and I've only given it a passing glance, but the list is obviously way bloated, and with the pokemon I suggested to move down, will only get bloatier. Especially since there's several pokemon not there which should probably be moved up (Eviolite Gligar is godly, Roost/Defog.), but eh, that's life.

my b, I guess I should have been clear about the "Lmao"s. They aren't placements I disagree with, they're just there as jokes. Obviously I don't think TTarr/Ferro/Chansey shouldn't be OU. All the other ones are legitimate, though.

so, this shouldn't come as a surprise, but I highly disagree with like, a lot of this list. I'd go into UU/NU, but honestly, I barely looked at them because if the OU list is fucked up, it's basically guaranteed the lower tiers will similarly look twisted so there's not really much of a point. so, normally, I'd go into this huge tangent about how deciding pre-emptively what will be in what tiers to determine temporary tiers is dumb and an absurdly bad idea (Because, yes, I think it is), but it obviously sounds like the matter is out of your hands, so that's kind of pointless. So, realizing that, I would naturally go indepth onto which ones I disagree with, giving reasons and explanations for each individual one, but I realize that would be equally pointless. Why? Because it sounds like all of this was discussed internally, with internal information about what will and won't be in the update that most people (and certainly not me, since it's not like I've been keeping up with the content) know about, so there's a pretty good chance that some (but probably not all, just based on the quantity of disagreements) of my criticisms of the list won't really be applicable, because of information I straight up just don't know. I really don't understand how anyone not on the tier council could provide substantial critique this list. As of right now, what do I know? Uhhhh, I know that the pokemon on the lists are almost definitely coming out, it's a safe bet that weather starters won't have permanent weather because Swift Swimmers are legal (also it'd be dumb), it's gen 5-ish, most if not all legendaries aren't coming, and SOME hidden abilities are being released, but I don't know which ones, although I can infer some based on the list. I dunno, maybe there's more information out than these tier lists and the bit I know/can infer, and I just don't know it because I haven't been paying much attention, but from the responses in this thread it seems most all of this information is internal, and just having these lists isn't very helpful. With that being said, I'm going to cross out and critique the lists with some minor comments as to why I'm suggesting they be changed, since going in-depth will probably be wrong in some minor, or even major details. The point of the list is maybe you guys can "internally" re-analyze or look at some of the ones I suggest, I wouldn't recommend anyone point-by-point try and refute them, because some of it's probably wrong, but hey, you can't win them all. Also, one last note; I am assuming the reason most of the pokemon are in the tier they're in is because you're being reaaaaally conservative, based on some of the pokemon I'm seeing. I'm guessing a good amount of these pokemon you put in OU aren't really necessarily pokemon you guys think are OU, but BL as well. and well boo that, lame af cmon guys. Any ones I striked through I think should definitely be moved. Anyway, here you go:

so I've been looking at this thread since it was posted, and I considered posting a long drawn out response earlier because #fuckbatonpass, but I'm glad I didn't. Listen, buddy, pal, friendo, I don't know how to tell you this, but I have no idea how you actually expect your suggestion to go through. Any semblance of an argument anyone gives is responded with "lol but we don't KNOW that so your argument doesn't matter we should test it xD". Yes, I get it, you think it has to be tested to truly understand if it should be banworthy and blah blah blah etc. With that being said, you do understand that YOU are the one attempting to change the status quo, and therefore, the burden of proof as to why it should be changed is on you. And seeing how "hey it's been a while since baton pass we should test it again" isn't exactly a new, original Matoka© brand idea, that obviously isn't sufficient. So, perhaps instead of just repeatedly insisting and attempting to force what you think on everyone else in complete resistance and ignorance to any argument they're attempting, you should, maybe, I dunno, try and delve into some of the theory people are arguing to try and convince them of your point? So now that we've covered my problem with the way you're trying to push through this suggestion without actually contributing anything of substance to the conversation, let me talk about my problems with the actual suggestion itself. So first of all, the idea of unbanning Baton Pass with B/W because everything will be messed up already anyway, and therefore it's a good time to test it, is terrible. The reasoning would be sound, if Baton Pass was banned for being broken. However, it was not banned for being broken. Yeah, there are broken things you can do with Baton Pass, and one or two of those things might leak into B/W if it's unbanned, and that's something I guess, but Baton Pass was banned for being uncompetitive and the negative effects it had on the metagame. We went from full Baton Pass, to testing a month without it, and then a month with Baton Pass clause (1 BP user per team), and it was (mostly) unanimously agreed that no BP was waaaaay better for everyone involved. The problem is that the easiest way to gauge uncompetitiveness/unhealthiness is to see the difference between a metagame with something, and a metagame without it. If we unban BP at the start of B/W when everything is in chaos, we have literally no good "control" to see the difference between the meta with BP and without it. So, in reality, testing it at the start of B/W because everything is in chaos because it can't cause that much harm is literally, by far, the worst time to test it out. So you might say "okay fine, test it out a bit after B/W comes out and things stabilize a bit, because you know, it'll still be a completely different meta and we can't say it's still banworthy for sure". Yeah, okay, I hear you, but here's my biggest problem with the idea: Fuck Baton Pass. The thing you're closing your ears to and adamantly denying to anyone who attempts to tell you is that BP is really, consistently bad. It's restricted in some non-insignificant way in Gen 3, 5, 6 and 7. In gen 1 Baton Pass didn't exist, and in Gen 2 it has some niche use, but the lack of real abusers and the deeply entrenched, bulky, stally metagame of gen 2 makes it just kind of sucks compared to better offense teams. In gen 4 it isn't really restricted, but there were discussions about it, and tbh I can say with a pretty large degree of certainty if we were in Gen 4, people would probably want it banned/heavily restricted in some way. And of course, Gen 5/6 have you limited to 1 BP user per team, and you can't pass speed boosts, with it being fully banned in Gen 7. What am I trying to say here? Well, it's very simple. Baton Pass is very, ridiculously consistently obnoxious. Fighting against it and with it really detracts a lot from the game, because Baton Pass is special in that it's a strategy, whether it's a full team or just 1 passer, that you can use mostly the same moves/strategy every game, and even if your opponent knows what's coming, they can very easily just lose due to a bad matchup. It's why BP has been getting more attention in more recent gens; The large amount of pokemon and massive powercreep makes team matchup a huge issue, and when we go into BW, losses due to matchup are going to be a bigger problem. Throw in things like BP that feed off of "winning at teambuilder", and you've got a recipe for a genuinely unfun, uncompetitive battle environment. Yeah, if we try BP again, we might be able to squeeze it in with 1 BP per team, or, god forbid, that abomination of a clause they're using for Gen 5/6 and they used in early Sun/Moon before full-on banning the move, but why should we? Yeah, we might save BP, and we'll give Shedinja a tiny bit more viability, but it's just not worth it. The time, effort and resources that would go into attempting this and maybe trying a few different BP Clauses is much better spent doing literally anything else, because, even if we do manage to get in an okay position in the metagame, there's pretty much 0 chance it'll make the game more competitive. It'll just open up another move for people to use on some pokemon sometimes, with so many restrictions it probably won't even be worth using on a majority of the pokemon can learn it. And for what? So we can say it's not "completely" banned? To cater to the 3 people who want to use BP Shedinja in NU? It simply isn't worth it to test something that we know is going to cause some degree of trouble, will have to be restricted to some level, if not completely,and won't really improve the metagame in a period of time that's already going to be chaotic and require a good amount of work to begin with. So, should Baton Pass be tested to see if it's truly still a problem? Well, it's certainly a possibility. But to be entirely honest, I think there's a 0% chance it won't be restricted by a clause or something in some way, it would take a good amount of time and effort, and the start of B/W is by far the worst time to test the idea. And honestly, I don't think it's worth taking that time and effort test. With that being said, whether it is or isn't worth the time, I don't even think that can be properly evaluated until well into B/W. So, with that being said, not only do I disagree with your suggestion, but I think you posted this thread a year or 2 too early. TL;DR: naw homie come back in 2+ years with an actual contribution to the discussion and well into B/W and maybe we can talk about it man

this Azu fear is killing me, pls stop. so, Gen 5 is probably the generation I have played the most. Coincidentally, fuck Gen 5, it's the worst gen, weather wars suck. With that being said, by far my favorite archetype in Gen 5 was rain teams. Sand just felt kind of gross to play, and Sun was much of the same, so I stuck with Rain. And logically, past me looked at all the possible pokemon I could use, looked at Azumarill, and thought: "Holy shit, all this attack, STAB Waterfall and Aqua Jet, BOOSTED BY RAIN? This is BROKEN! Why isn't this OU?"; So, I played a shit ton of Azumarill on my rain team, sticking to CB (Belly Drum+Jet wasn't legal, but even if it was, there's no way it'd get anywhere), as it was really the only real way to make it work. So, naturally, let's start out by talking about Azumarill's viability in Gen 5 OU, which as you might imagine, was nonexistent. (See BW OU SPL Usage; Literally 0 Azu, for good reason, despite tons of Politoeds)I mean, it wasn't bad, it could viably hit things and hit them decently hard. However, it suffered from quite a few major flaws: First of all, it was only viable on Rain. This in itself is like 30 different flaws, and it really hampers any viability this thing might have. Without Rain up, it's just a Water type that hits harder than normal, with fucking terrible coverage (Superpower/Ice Punch/Waterfall/Aqua Jet and Double-Edge/Return if you want lmao) and a decent priority move. There are a million better options than it. You can't run it as an anti-rain mon to take advantage of opposing rain teams either, because it fucking sucked against Rain teams, and even if it didn't, there are actually good anti-Rain team options available. So, it's only viable on Rain, but that's not too bad, right? I mean, Rain's pretty good. It OHKO's most of the highest usage pokemon in the tier with the right move too, so if it comes in, it can do some real damage. Well, no, it being only viable on Rain is that bad. In gen 5, it's pure Water type, meaning it has literally no defensive synergy with rain teams, greatly compounding their weaknesses. Even it's main coverage options, Water/Ice/Fighting have literally no synergy with the average types you'd find on other rain mons, with Fighting being ridiculously common (especially on lolKeldeo), Ice is a common coverage option available to water types, and Water doesn't even need to be discussed. Typewise and coverage wise, Azumarill is just another assortment of common weaknesses that the rain team has to deal with. And that's terrible. The terrible defensive synergy also compounds another big weakness Azumarill has; It's really, ridiculously susceptible to chip damage. For a slow, kind of bulky mon that comes in, hits something, and is forced out, it has big problems with getting chipped down. It's susceptible to every entry hazard, and in Gen 5, spinning away hazards is a gigantic pain in the ass. Spikes spam and T.Spikes are really obnoxious, and Azumarill gets completely obliterated by it. This also means that not only is Azumarill hard to switch in, but you have to make the few times it does get to come in really count. However, it's coverage options are so bad, that if you pick the wrong move (ie end up Waterfall/Aqua Jetting a Ferrothorn or something), not only have you completely thrown away your momentum, but your Azumarill is only 1 or 2 more switchins away from getting kept as a sac or Aqua Jet threat. Even if you do make the correct prediction, Azumarill is then massive setup bait. Naturally, this is an obvious flaw of a pokemon that is pretty much always CB-Locked, but Azumarill is especially huge setup bait. Also, all of this is ignoring the several pokemon that completely just hard counter and shut Azumarill down (Gastrodon, Jellicent, Rain Stall Tentacruel come to mind, Jellicent especially), so if whatever reason you do struggle with it and just playing around it regularly for some reason, it's not like you don't have options. So, I hope I've established that Azumarill isn't good in Gen 5 OU, like, at all. So, this brings up the question; Would it be good in PokeMMO Gen 5 Discount Toffee Imitation? No, probably not. So, it gains Belly Drum, the legendaries aren't around, weather isn't permanent, and if it's lucky, Defog will remove hazards, so it won't have to fucking implode every time a Ferrothorn gets a little cheeky on the other team. Buuuut, Rain isn't permanent, meaning Swift Swim + Drizzle will be legal, and it still suffers from the problems it had in Gen 5; Notably, without Rain, it hits hard, but nowhere near hard enough to be considered over other hard hitters, it has bad coverage options, all of the pokemon that walled it into oblivion are still available, and it provides pretty much no defensive synergy whatsoever. And with 5/8 turn rain and Swift Swim allowed, Azumarill would be hard pressed to find a slot on a rain team. The only way it could work as a win condition on a team like that is with Belly Drum, but with the terrible defensive synergy it has, it'd be hard pressed to get a Drum off; Even if it did, it certainly wouldn't be unstoppable. A CB set would be just as bad, the moment you run into a team that has a hard counter to Azu, your hyper-offense Rain team now has a pokemon that is effectively a liability, and can't even really function as a pivot due to it's type not complimenting your other mons. It's too easily walled and too inconsistent, especially when compared to threats like SS Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. So, what about non-Rain teams? Well, it really, really misses the Rain boost, and being pure water type does it no favors. Without the Rain boost, CB Azumarill even gets stalled out by Skarmory, which is just terrible. Yeah, on non-rain teams it at least isn't making the whole "I've got like 4 water types on my team" issue worse, but it's not exactly a great positive. Most non-rain teams are going to want their own bulky waters anyway to deal with Rain, which sucks for Azumarill; Every team is keeping options on hand for dealing with water types like it, both offensively and defensively, meaning that against any decent team, Azumarill is gonna really struggle to get in AND to break through their defensive core. It's resistances really do it no favors; Steel is really uncommon offensively, barring something like Ferrothorn, which Azu would never in a million years want to come in on, Water/Ice are most common from Water types that Azu doesn't want to come in on, since they probably wall it anyway, and if it gets Scald burned it's literally useless, and Fire would only really be seen on Sun teams with Sun up, which can OHKO it with a Solarbeam, outspeed, and even if it Aqua Jets it almost definitely won't OHKO in the sunlight. At the end of the day, hitting hard just isn't enough. Without the Fairy type, Play Rough, and super-Knock Off, Azumarill struggles to consistently come in, it's coverage is so bad that it's very predictable and walled by a good amount of bulky waters, and there's just... other pokemon that can hit hard. CB gets punished hard even if it does manage to get in and hit something, (assuming the enemy has 0 reliable answers) which is unreliable, and Belly Drum has a hard time setting up, and even if it does, it isn't even close to a guaranteed sweep. It won't even have Rain to make it stronger to fall back on, because honestly, I can't imagine Rain teams bothering with Azumarill, they have way better sweepers/hard hitters to choose from. tl;dr pick up a jellicent or something fuck azu isn't very good guys call me when you get fairies

I don't really agree with you. Yes, Twave is absolutely one of the best moves in pokemon history, seeing use in pretty much every gen on many different pokemon you're 100% correct about that. The change to paralysis to only cut speed in half instead of crippling your pokemon's speed to unusable levels was huge, is a shit ton of gens late imo, should have been added forever ago. But the Twave accuracy nerf is just obnoxious. Yeah, you're right, it makes more sense in terms of consistency to have Twave not be 100% accurate when you look at other status moves, but that's only when looking at a surface level. But other than making more sense in terms of consistency, is there really any reason to nerf the accuracy? Yeah, Twave is super good. I don't doubt it's as good in PokeMMO as it is in pretty much every pokemon gen, and the speed loss nerf is super warranted. But nerfing the accuracy really doesn't actually nerf the move itself that much. Yeah, you can miss now, and when you miss it sucks. But are Chanseys really gonna stop running Twave just because 10% of the time it misses now? No, of course not, because 90% of the time it still does the job, and it doesn't have an option anywhere near as good for spreading paralysis. Just like how Toxic missing every so often is incredibly obnoxious and can sometimes even lose a game, but that really isn't a factor in whether or not its' used, because there isn't another move that functions quite like Toxic, you can't substitute it for a more reliable option. It missing is just part of the game. It's not like how you run Thunderbolt over Thunder, because Thunderbolt actually hits, you can't sub Toxic or Twave for "slightly worse in terms of raw power but more accurate". You're just stuck with them. The accuracy nerf on Twave doesn't nerf the move significantly enough to really alter what pokemon its' used on, unless you really, really hate missing I guess. It just adds a small, potentially game changing bit of RNG to a strong move. RNG is part of pokemon, but generally, I'm personally opposed to just throwing in changes that add extra RNG to the game. If I was forced to choose between Twave staying the same, or going fully Gen 7 with the speed cut nerf and the change to 90% acc, I'd choose full Gen 7 every time. But if I could pick and choose, I'd just take the speed nerf. Ideally, that should be significant enough to force people to exercise more judgement on when they should use it, if at all. It adds more skill to the game, by making Twave less generally useful, and by extension lass spammable both in battle and on movesets. Lowering the accuracy doesn't really make Twave use more skillful. Yes, it increases the risk of using it slightly, but it's not going to influence your play to a significant degree, if at all. You just play under the assumption that it'll hit, because almost every time, yeah, it will. And sometimes you're just gonna get screwed by RNG, and it just... won't hit. Yeah, Twave is slightly worse now, and it's more consistent with other status moves, but have you made Twave a more skill intensive and situational move by nerfing the accuracy? Not really. tl;dr: speed nerf is great, accuracy change is really annoying. speed nerf should be added at all costs tho, it's that great, twave has always been gourd tier.

sorry jj, wobbu scares me, i was getting war flashbacks.

the reasoning you've given for the initial wobbuffet banning is pretty off the mark. Wobbu was not initially banned because you can't switch out when trapped by another wobb. In fact, when Wobbuffet first came out, Shadow Tag didn't even work, and it got insta-banned by everyone simply because it was banned in Gen 3. Ofc, this was pre-tier council. By the time Shadow Tag did work, I'm pretty sure there were also the Struggle mechanics that made it so Struggle took away 25% of your health, so even then, it wasn't that big an issue, and shortly after that future gen Shadow Tag was added so you COULD switch out in Wobbu v Wobbu. The issue with Wobbuffet causing infinite stalls was pretty much never a concern as to why it was banned. Of course, there's also a reason why for a year + since future-gen Shadow Tag was added, bringing down Wobbuffet was never a serious discussion point. Also, your argument for bringing down Wobbuffet doesn't seem to consider what makes Wobbuffet effective, and by extension, terribly obnoxious. I mean, it is "weak to toxic", but Toxic has been around and used forever. Maybe it's used slightly more now, but it's not like some new addition that massively hits Wobbuffet. In fact, with Snorlax gone, having Chansey as the most used pokemon, a mon that can serve as an effective cleric actually helps Wobbuffet quite a bit. Not to mention that Toxicing Wobbuffet isn't actually that free. It can be pretty obvious when you're gonna toxic a Wobbuffet, and it can be exploited by Encore. While that strategy isn't as potent in this meta, since we lack Baton Pass to really capitalize on a "free turn", you can still, say, get your Guts Hera a free status, AND a super free switchin to punish the enemy. You also say Wobbu finds itself most effective in trapping Choice users, but if anything, that only argues Wobbu is probably better in this meta than he has been before, given the greater variety of Banded pokemon running around. You also say Wobbuffet needs support to be effective, but I don't understand what you mean by that. As a trapper, Wobbuffet is one of the pokemon that flourishes by PROVIDING the support, trapping threats that your team has trouble with and dispatching them easily. Once it gets in on a favorable matchup, that's it. Wobbuffet doesn't need support throughout the match, it just needs to annihilate whatever threat you don't want to deal with. It is the support. I absolutely, without a doubt believe Wobbuffet is super cancer. Not so much Wobbu himself, but Shadow Tag in singles is absurd. When Shadow Tag gets banned in Gen 6, and Mega Gengar almost got banned from Ubers for Shadow Tag, the ability is just silly. The only generation where Shadow Tag Wobbuffet isn't effectively banned is Gen 5, where better matchups make the other trappers (Dugtrio+Gothitelle) more favored, the damage dealt by enemies significantly higher (weather boosted choice attacks hurt, and Wobbu doesn't resist Fire/Water moves), and Encore got a significant nerf to only last 3 turns (although, this change is actually in pokemmo, but I'm not sure it matters as much). Shadow Tag is just too effective. Wobbuffet is incredibly limited and relatively predictable, but it doesn't matter, because it has all the tools it needs to do its' job and the enemy can't switch out once it is in. When we live in a world where Trapinch is almost OU by usage because Arena Trap is that good, Wobbuffet reigns above all. Also, Shed Hull is a really bad argument imo. If you're running Shed Hull on your offensive pokemon instead of a Band or something because of Wobbuffet, the wobbu user has already won. Honestly, you could make a decent argument Wobbuffet is not broken. It doesn't need much more than what it has, but it is still fairly limited, it doesn't have any Baton Pass support for super easy switchins, or teammates that can exploit Encore turns for free setup to pass to major threats. There's also the Encore nerf, which has been implemented forever, and really sucks for Wobbu. It doesn't have the option of Custap that it does in later gens, which lets it Destiny Bond + Encore before it falls. But even in a world where Wobbuffet isn't broken, there's no doubt in my mind that it will remain uncompetitive. Shadow Tag is just that lethal. It doesn't feel good to play against due to the limited counterplay, but is still ridiculously potent for how straightforward it is. Also this: This is kinda absurd, cmon. There's been tons of tier resets, re-tests, etc. etc. before. Actually, Wobbuffet is the only pokemon in all of PokeMMO to never have any time in OU, everything else has had several chances. Saying that retroactive unbans won't happen because people aren't willing to test the only pokemon which has managed to keep a 100% ban uptime in all of PokeMMO is just...wrong.

Make sure that when someone declines your proposal, the wedding ring disappears forever and you have to buy another one. Think of all the hundreds of dollars you can make on delusional white knights! Hundreds!

So I guess for those who are curious, I made that pastebin through mostly memory, and combed through the old council PMs for the general dates/times of when events took place. With Amanu + Thinknice dead, that's probably the most accurate list of bans (especially early ones) you're gonna get. I didn't bother with the lower tiers for several reasons: 1: I honestly barely remember them. 2: The PMs are like, really long. Scouring them for information is kind of a pain, and for the lower tiers, I basically have to to even remember what the bans were. The old discussion threads are also long gone, so there isn't any other way to gather the information. 3: Due to the NU/UU/OU council separation of whenever that happened, the records for the lower tiers I have don't trace that far back anyway. Of course, on top of the gap in information from when I left ~1 year ago and now as well. with that being said, here's some history on lower tiers anyway. Not really sure if this is actually applicable/relevant in this thread at this moment, since most of the bans are so dated they won't be of much benefit, but if people want to create a masterlist of old bans, then this + the pastebin from up there is a good start. This is pretty much everything I could get. I could probably get some more information from post September 2014 if I really tried, but it's pretty liable to being full of holes and it's significantly more work. If anyone wants to use this as a base to add to it for a more complete list, go ahead, because I probably won't.

naw, you can still use regular forms in gen 7 along with Alolan forms. The base attack buff is applied to both regular and Alolan dugtrio. In fact, Alolan Dugtrio actually has a different stat spread than regular, as it loses 10 base speed for 10 defense.

Snorlax confirmed unhealthy for the community, b& already.

that's not true at all though, the only generation that the sleep counter resets upon switching out is Generation 5, and it was reverted in Gen 6. I'm pretty much 100% sure on this, since this change was a huge deal that made sleep kind of busted, and made Rest complete and total garbage. In gen 3, it's just 1 to 4 sleep turns.

I mean, he only had like, what, 11 surfs left? With Pressure it only would have taken 6 surfs for him to run out of PP and be guaranteed to lose, especially since you had more PP AND Rest. Once he used those 6 Surfs, if none of them crit, he can just forfeit if he has to go to work that badly, since the game was already over for him anyway.

That Typhlosion is +Speed, not +Sp.Attack: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 84-100 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery Although honestly this point wasn't really a big deal to begin with. I mean, Crawdaunt's counters can die if they've taken prior damage, but Crawdaunt is also slow as fuck and made of glass. Yeah, he hits hard, but he's not really comparable to Typhlosion. Manectric is probably a better comparison, but I can't really comment on it much honestly. I'm not sure I'd say it has very few on a Fire Blast set, just that it has few. It's bulk is 78/78/85, for comparison's sake, something like Clefable has 95/73/90. It's definitely not super fragile, it just doesn't particularly want be taking Thunder Waves or too much damage, much less Super Effective hits like EQ or Rock Slide. I also feel like there's more to Nidoking than just having no switch ins, you also have to account for the fact that for it to actually a wallbreak, it does need to pick the correct move, and oftentimes the "Correct Move" is only 1 out of 4 options, and it can be a bit of a crapshot. Typhlosion can mostly get by with "Spam Fire STAB", because even the "correct" switchins for that, like Slowking and Miltank, get hit stupidly hard by it anyway. The fact is, Typhlosion isn't just strong, it's really easy to use. Nidoking is played like a strong wallbreaker in the vein of Medicham, where you outplay your opponent and eat away their defensive core, whereas Typhlosion is played like a sweeper that just so happens to break walls. I mean, it might not be useless against the rest of the tier, but it doesn't really matter. If your opponent has a Typhlosion, the reason you can't use it against the rest of the tier isn't because it's not viable against them, it's because your Slowking will be too weak to come in on Typhlosion later. It's a pretty big distinction. Also, you're still using +speed Typhlosion: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 78-94 (38.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 68-82 (33.6 - 40.5%) -- 47.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Also, idk, but saying Slowking can take 21% before having to use Slack Off sounds kind of ridiculous to me. Like, that's an incredibly insignificant amount of damage, if you really think about it. That's slightly more than 2 layers of spikes, and less than 3. At that point, yeah, you are kind of forced to keep Slowking handy for only Typhlosion if you can help it. I mean, you're right, you don't, but I'm not blaming you or the tier council members for not following policies. I'm also not sure people are necessarily saying there should be an unhealthy quickban, but rather an offensive uber quickban. I mean, people are talking about the unhealthy affects it has on the metagame, but that's solely caused by it's offensive abilities, it's not as if they're just going for an unhealthy ban. This reminds me: 0 Atk Life Orb Typhlosion Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 78-92 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 68-82 (33.6 - 40.5%) -- 47.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Life Orb Tpunch > Life Orb HP Grass for Slowking. Nothing changes if you're using specs though, obviously. Also, you're forgetting of the 1 Typhlosion set that beats every answer.

y'all need to stop sleeping on the power of a Typhlosion without Eruption. Here's some perspective: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 84-100 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recover 252+ SpA Life Orb Blaze Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 88-105 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Blaze LO Fire Blast is actually stronger than Choice Specs Max HP Eruption. (Also it can burn! (and also miss sometimes but just don't get unlucky)) Typhlosion isn't suddenly super shitty without Eruption. It's not as if anything other than Specs/Scarf Eruption suddenly makes it unviable. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it'd still broken without Eruption. ACTUALLY, from the way the Typhlosion discussions seem to have panned out, I'm actually convinced it'd be banned faster if it didn't have Eruption. Maybe then people would focus on the things it has going for it other than a singular, strong STAB move it can just kind of spam. Because at the end of the day, Eruption's base power isn't really too far off from Fire Blast to begin with; 150 vs 120 is a pretty big leap, yeah, but it's not some insanely crazy leap, even if it does nab some extra 2HKO's/KO's non-Blaze Fire Blast just can't. After just 1 layer of Spikes, Eruption drops to roughly ~130 BP. With 2 layers, it's down to 123 and obviously with >3 it dips down to below Fire Blast. While we're on the topic of Spikes, some things (see: literally Miltank) can just straight up die to 2 Eruptions after 1 layer of Spikes, and everything else that comes in (bar a correctly predicted Flash Fire Pokemon) certainly doesn't appreciate it. Actually, pretty much every answer to Typhlosion's fire spam other than Flash Fire really has to stay as healthy as possible, because otherwise, they're just gonna get outsped and demolished regardless. A lot of the "counters" to it really work a lot better as Checks, because after one switchin they're pretty crippled, but they can still come in safely on a revenge kill. Even Sp.Def Slowking, which can consistently come in and just beat it out with Slack Off, honestly isn't even a great answer to it. For one, you're forced to keep Slowking as pristine as humanly possible, lest it be a bit too weakened and Typhlosion comes out, just demolishing it regardless. Not only does this mean you kind of have to keep Slowking pocketed specifically for Typhlosion, so you can't use it for other threats, but every time you bring it in on Typhlosion you're forced to use Slack Off. If you don't use Slack Off, Slowking can't come in on Typhlosion anymore. So, this effectively means Eruption -> Hit Slowking switchin, Typhlosion switches out and Slowking Slacks Off to full HP. Yeah, you've forced out Typhlosion, but now you're at a deficit, your opponent has the initiative and barring Spikes, you haven't actually done much of anything to Typhlosion itself, or the opponent in general in this exchange. Forcing Typhlosion out is good, since getting a clean switchin to Typhlosion to begin with was probably already a bit of a hassle for the opponent to begin with, but even then you're not exactly in a good spot. This actually brings me to my final point; What exactly is the argument being presented that Typhlosion isn't actually that good? That it has some counters? You'd have to be pretty ridiculously broken to have literally no counters whatsoever, there are very few pokemon that have ever fit that description of offensive uber so perfectly. As far as I can tell, Typhlosion is a pokemon that necessitates, at a minimum, either massively outplaying your a opponent, or 1 DEDICATED, focused counter specifically made and placed to deal with it (and the reason I emphasize this is because of how dedicated this counter must be; if you get too much chip damage on that counter, it ceases to be a counter, so it really does need to be dedicated specifically to Typhlosion), and ideally, severally tertiary checks just in case everything goes to absolute shit. It's like a mini-Mega Lucario; It's fast enough to outspeed a lot of attackers even without a Scarf, making it hard to offensively check, especially since it's a decent scarfer on it's own. It hits hard enough to be VERY hard to counter, meaning that answering it defensively, although there are options, requires a lot of dedication to keep it at bay. It's only real weakness is that it has a hard time coming in, especially if you're using Eruption, but like I said before, it doesn't need to rely on Eruption to be viable. Granted, even without Eruption, it doesn't exactly have a ton of super free switchins, but it does get more options at that point, especially since getting to Blaze can make it even more threatening than Specs Eruption. So, really, I don't understand the argument. Yes, Typhlosion has some answers and is hard to switchin. Is that really all it takes to not be offensively uber? The answers exist, but they're very narrow in scope (ie, they're usually limited to only dealing with Typhlosion, even if they can serve roles other than that they usually have to dedicate themselves to fire enchilada), and even then aren't necessarily perfectly reliable. Typhlosion isn't perfect, but since when has any banned pokemon been perfect?

naw, metagross needs CB to be an optimal receiver, since with CB it OHKO's literally everything except like 2 pokemon guaranteed and is immune to Sandstorm, Toxic and Intimidate. The problem was not using Roar.

idk how to tell you this, but there's nothing wrong with abstaining. There are 7 tier council members, and they're expected to make decisions on every tier, even though I'm sure a lot of them don't have much experience in certain tiers, either because they don't like them or play them or whatever; Naturally, since they're tier council members, I'm sure they look into any concerns of the tier even if they don't know much about it because hey, it's their job, but even then they might just not be confident in their ability to make a good decision. If they don't think they can provide a meaningful, well-informed vote on a specific pokemon, why should they be forced to vote? It doesn't make sense. Pretty much any system that operates through a majority vote like this has an abstain option for this reason. That's also why we have 7 council members; If we had like 3 or 4, then abstaining would be a much bigger deal, since even 1 abstain is a huge portion of the council effectively not making a decision. However, with 7 members, even if 2 people abstain, 5 votes should be plenty to make a decent decision. Besides, abstain doesn't even necessarily mean that they're throwing their vote away, it could just mean "for now, I can't say for certain either way, so I'll think about it and give a vote later"; Keep in mind, there's a reason this thread is currently open and not locked and archived, and that reason is that although they have for now decided to not ban Snorlax, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's their final decision.

Alright this is pretty ridiculous, I don't know where you guys are getting these accusations of the new members being biased. Since I'm not completely braindead, I decided to comb the entire thread for all of Riga and Coolio's posts, to see what their public stance seems to be. Here are riga's two posts: This one is pretty innocuous, pointing out the absurdity of of a Para from body slam proccing a bunch in a row. This one, if anything, seems to be acknowledging how incredibly good Snorlax is. The most you could pull from this is "yeah, Snorlax is probably op, but idk if should it be banned?"; This is about as far from "Anti-Snorlax Ban Bias" as you can get. If anything, this post seems pretty reasonable, all things considered. So, obviously this argument fails. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if Riga abstained from voting, and the reason Tyrone specified that the majority didn't vote for ban is that it ended up being 3 Ban, 3 no ban, and 1 abstain. But, I mean, this is just my speculation. So, what about Coolio's stance? Well, he actually made quite a few posts so I'm not gonna bother linking them. Does he think Snorlax should stay in OU? Looking at the posts, it seems pretty likely that yes, he does. How does that make him biased? He's provided reasoning throughout the thread as to why he thinks Snorlax should stay, and argued with people to legitimize his points. There doesn't seem to be any sort of bias or anything, it's just that he happens to have any opinion that the people calling him biased disagree with. It's one thing to disagree with the lack of a ban or to disagree with the points he made, (I don't like them too much personally), but calling him biased doesn't make sense. So, is Tyrone biased for selecting Rigamorty and Coolio? lmao no. If he was intentionally picking people to oppose the ban, he definitely could have picked someone "more biased" (or whatever the fuck you guys are even trying to say) than Rigamorty, and Coolio having an opinion you disagree with doesn't make him biased. Call me crazy, but I get the feeling that Tyrone isn't personally scheming to setup the entire OU tier behind the scenes for some convoluted reasoning nobody knows about. So, why don't we vote for council members? I mean, it's been explained repeatedly for the past ~3 years every time a controversial decision is made by the tier council, but I guess repeating the reasons again won't hurt, so let me outline it: - Effectively turns it into a popularity contest. - Doesn't necessarily guarantee a good candidate actually ends up on the council. - No matter how the vote is handled, the people who are allowed to vote is definitely going to be restricted in some way to prevent the system getting abused. Because of this, even if we do vote council members, the complaint will just shift from "we should vote" to "the rules on who's allowed to vote isn't fair, what's the point of a vote!"; Sure, you might get less people complaining than before, but I find it amusing that the people who want a vote for council members are even assuming that they'll even be allowed to participate in the vote. - Staff don't like it. Specifically Squirtle has denied this idea like a million times. This alone makes the entire idea not even worth considering, but even beyond Squirtle, I'm pretty confident other staff members don't like it. The tier council gives members information that they can't leak to people, and the staff want people who are trustworthy on it. - god damn fucking why even do you guys want a "democracy" so much jesus it's pokemon online not a god damn country we're not dictating your taxes lksghdlfns Also, all these constant vague accusations of tier council members of maybe doing some things for personal gain with no backing or reasoning is pretty kek. What's the point of even sliding that in there? Just to try and undermine the credibility of the council, while making sure that what you're saying is vague enough that it won't be deleted for "personal attacks" and can't be disproven? The burden of proof is on you uguus, don't try to poison the punch bowl in an attempt get people who don't question what you're saying to actually believe your nonsense. tl;dr: Riga isn't biased y'all high, Coolio isn't biased he just disagrees with you, Tyrone isn't the head of a conspiracy, voting for the council is dumb, stop accusing people of your made up thought crimes and this thread has gotten stupidly derailed for no reason.

Me: "There's no way Riga doesn't have any official wins, he's been here since fucking forever, c'mon." Ctrl+F Hall of Fame; Riga, if you're reading this, you're a fraud. Although, idk what beef you have with Riga, even if he is a fraud he's been here forever and is a pretty reasonable guy. If there's any candidate for the tier council that should know how the system works, it should be him. also this thread is pretty kek

rip Tranz's career, it died as it lived.

If Surf then Psychic: Win condition is for Heracross to get fully para'd/miss on either turn 1 or 2. The odds of this is 59.6%. Also, you lose if you crit Surf (6.25%), or a crit megahorn on turn 2, which isn't a concern for psychic (because it's dead no matter what lol). Your chance of victory is roughly ~ 52.4%. (it's actually a little higher because i calculated the odds for the crit megahorn in the laziest way possible) If Psychic x2: Win condition is to either crit (6.25%) or for Heracross to get fully para'd/miss on ONLY TURN 2 (36.25%). Because of Swarm, regardless of whether he hits or misses the first Megahorn, you lose as long as he hits on turn 2. Your chance of victory is ~40.3%. In both cases, you lose to a Crit Megahorn turn 1 (6.25%), so it's irrelevant to the discussion. There you go, ez.