[Discussion] Knock off Base Power

[TeaBud]

(First of all idk if this is the right section to put this on but i assumed so)

 

With the large update on Pvp Scene recently i find myself questioning why doesn't knock off get is base power to 65. 

What would be the best reasons on why this should/shouldn't happen? 

 

We can easily describe Knock off as the best move in-game, having an insane impact in matches. While we see it more in lower tiers on PokeMMO (correct me if i'm wrong) due to the "high" usaged of eviolite, i wonder if we have the right tools to deal with it in general.

 

Please provide a healthy discussion about this and your reasons on why this should/shouldn't happen

[suigin]

Originally it was because we had no mega stones and z crystals to use as a dedicated switch in to Knock Off users. Eventually SWSH came out and Masuda kinda forgot about that balance issue.

Nowadays it's prolly so our fighting types, specifically the already overwhelming Conkeldurr can be managed.

If you want the utility of the move it's still there and is perfectly usable, other Pokemon like Bisharp and Weavile have decent STAB in Night Slash, there's no real need to buff it.

[NotMyWaifu]

As Suigin mentioned lots of fighting types have access to knock off and it would become more difficult for psychic and ghost types to handle them. We both don't have the base 65 power or the damage increase if an item is actually knocked off. Conk is example of a pokemon that would benefit massively from buffs to knock off. Cofagrigus is a common answer so let's use that as a thing to calc against.

 

Knock off currently:

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 44-52 (13.7 - 16.2%) -- possible 7HKO

Knock off boosted to 65 base power:

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 136-162 (42.5 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

Knock off 65BP + damage boost on item removal

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 204-242 (63.7 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Over 70% of Confagrigus run leftovers, even taking 40% losing leftovers is a huge deal if you want to keep checking Conk with them. One the few things that can check it defensively would no longer be able to. Even if you predict the move, it's very difficult to punish. Nothing really likes taking a knock off, bar maybe justified Lucario, but that can't really take a fighting move.

 

It's already a move worth using even at the low base power it has. The dark types that would benefit from having it are already good without it or would still be bad with it. It would just make Conk and Mien a lot harder to deal with.

[JohntheJester]

Imo the way to middle ground it is to implement the new knock off but remove it from some fighting types learnsets but that's for the devs to decide. Problem with knock off is that it's such a good move that everybody and their mom learns so it's too problematic, so by limiting the amount of pokemon which have access to it you make it less annoying and at the same time use it to indirect buff some less used pokemon. Not unheard off for pokemmo to change moveset a in Pokemon 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by JohntheJester

[suigin]

Or just don't buff it.  Specially now with Craw being given its HA

[NotMyWaifu]

1 hour ago, JohntheJester said:

Imo the way to middle ground it is to implement the new knock off but remove it from some fighting types learnsets but that's for the devs to decide. Problem with knock off is that it's such a good move that everybody and their mom learns so it's too problematic, so by limiting the amount of pokemon which have access to it you make it less annoying and at the same time use it to indirect buff some less used pokemon. Not unheard off for pokemmo to change moveset a in Pokemon

Alternatively we just keep it the way it is because it's both viable and healthy that way. Which pokemon need buffed knock off exactly and why should the fighting types that can use the move have their options decreased for their sake?

[Huargensy]

Raising the knock off power is the worst thing that can happen to the current competitive

[Luke]

It shouldn’t happen because we don’t have a meta capable of handling it. We have also like 60 new HA’s with no idea what any meta will look like in 3 months. 

[suigin]

Allow me to elaborate for a minute.

There's three big groups that use buffed Knock Off (I'll subdivide them into four though)

One is the Dark type physical attackers. Weavile, Bisharp, Crawdaunt

One is the Pokemon that use Knock Off for the sake of coverage which I'll separate into two categories:

Fighting types who get almost perfect coverage with Dark Moves: Conk, Mienshao

The rest: Scizor pretty much

Then the last group is bulky Pokemon that really only use it to remove items and as a utility move: Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth (If HA comes out), Gliscor, Empoleon

 

The first group really won't benefit much from this buff. The better BP is nice, yeah, the utility is nice but ultimately what may hold Bisharp and Weavile back a bit is the lack of the gen6 Dark type buffs making them hit Steel neutrally, something that would free up some coverage for them and allow them to spam STAB more easily. I exclude Craw from this whole "It won't benefit much" thing because it can actually hit Steel neutrally with its other STAB and can comfortably stick a much stronger Fighting coverage move in its movepool while Weavile and Bisharp can't. On top of that it seldom has any switch ins, Knock Off would get a much bigger damage boost due to Adaptability and on top of that whatever switches in would be crippled heavily by the lack of item.

 

The fighting types in the second group would be the biggest winners. Conk has very very few switches already and being able to comfortably delete Cofagrigus or permanently cripple whatever switches in on a mispredict is beyond broken. Mienshao too to a lesser extent.

 

Scizor won't care because Dark isn't buffed like I mentioned earlier, it'd get a better matchup against maybe bulky Waters and bulky Ghosts and that's it, it'd probably rather have CC for steels. I can see it maybe forsaking Pursuit for it thought but really it won't change it much.

 

The last group doesn't care about the damage. Sure more damage = better and chip does add up but your Ferrothorn Knock Off's goal is to remove an item, not to deal damage.